Some basic info:

Me - 34 year female - 1st marriage
Him - 40 years old - 2nd marriage
One child - 16 months old
Length of Marriage: 6 years
State of Residence: Michigan

After 3 years of debating this within myself and trying to work on my marriage, I realize now that it is time to throw in the towel. I won't get into all of the details but trust me when I say that it is over. He didn't do anything WRONG really - there was no cheating or abuse. He is a great father. We are just not right for each other. He does have a very negative attitude for life and always seems angry. We have not had sex in 3 months and it has been at least a year since we kissed or held hands. There is no intimacy or chemistry between us and there never will be again. I have to get out of this marriage.

He does not want to divorce. He wants to stay together just for our son. I however feel that it would be worse if I stayed because I don't want my son to grow up thinking that this is what marriage is like. I don't want him to see us fight all the time and never show affection or love towards each other.

He says I can leave but there is no way I will be taking my son with me. He will fight me for sole custody and it will be an ugly fight if it has to be (those were his words).

I plan on leaving the house and our cabin entirely to him. They were both his anyway before we got married. I just want my name off of them. He says that there is no way the bank would refinance it so that it just has his name on it, so my name would have to remain on both mortgages until they are paid off (another 10 years or so). Is that true or just a load of crap? I feel like he is trying to make this sound so difficult that I will give up and just stay. (He makes 125K per year and we owe 100K on the cabin and 150K on the house. I make 75K per year. Couldn't he get those refinanced in his name? They were his to begin with after all.)

If I leave the house to him, would that hurt my chances of getting custody of my son? Doesn't the child always automatically go with the mother? (I would get an apartment). Or does the child remain in the home with whichever parent stays there?

What can I expect in a custody fight? I haven't done anything wrong in the marriage but I'm the one to leave - so will I be the one to have to prove my case as to why I should have primary custody? I don't know how any of this works.

Any advice you can give me would be helpful. Thanks.

Hi Lots,

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I'm glad you're here. I hope you can find some tools here to help you improve your life and create a better home life for your son.

I'll try to answer your questions.


I would think he'd be able to refinance a 150k mortgage on a primary residence and maybe even a 100k mortgage on a second home, on a salary of 125k/year. I'm not expert though, but that is based on the mortgage that H and I qualify for. But the laws are getting tougher, you have to provide a lot more documentation than in the past. Is his income guaranteed and documentable?


The child most certainly does not always automatically go with the mother. E.g., if the mother is abusive or leaves the family due to an affair or has a lifestyle not conducive to a good home environment - drugs, drinking, illicit sex, etc. I don't think the child automatically stays with the house either, though. E.g., if the mother has to leave the home due to an abusive husband; the child should go with the mother. I would hope the judge would try to decide which parent would provide the most stable, safe, healthy environment for raising a child.


This I can't answer. I don't know either. There's lots of others here who do know about such things.

But I gotta comment on some other things:


You say you won't go into details, but maybe it would help if you did. Because I must say, if he's a great father, and hasn't done anything wrong and doesn't cheat and isn't abusive, then IMHO your best course of action is to learn and use the techniques here to improve and restore your marriage. IMHO that is the best path for your happiness and the best thing for your child. There are techniques you can learn that will help you recover the feeling of love for your husband.

Have you read the Basic Concepts article here?

I have a couple questions: you say you've been debating leaving for 3 years, but you have a 16 month old son. 16+9=25 = just over 2 years. Does that mean you got pregnant even though you had been thinking of leaving for 11 months?

Also, I have to ask, is there someone else that you are interested in?

Thanks for the response. I don't have time right now to answer all of your questions, but I can say that yes, I got pregnant while we were working on our marriage. I thought we were going to be OK at that point. Things have gotten worse since then.

I don't want to work on the marriage anymore. It is definately over.

No, there is no one else I'm interested in.

I have to run for now but will check in again later and hopefully be able to give more detail.

Before anyone can help, we need more info.

He's a good father

He's not abusive

There is a lack of intimacy



Who is having the affair?



What are your emotional needs? Which ones is he meeting? Which ones is he not meeting?

What are his emotional needs? Which ones are you meeting? Which ones are you not meeting?



Who is doing what kind of love busting?

First off...before anything else..is there another man in the picture...even a "friend?"

Okay, I do not know what you marital problems are but since you want to leave...you can...but you should not, absent abuse or neglect..take your son with you.

I would advise against leaving though.

If your marriage is truly over...and I am of the FIRM belief that a kid is better off raised in a happy home than one filled with tension and anger...then a divorce may be an option. But when you have children, you need to EARN your way out of a marriage.

So, what have you done to fix things?

What are the big issues???

What do you see as an ideal custody arrangement should you divorce?

No one here can answer your financial questions for you. Given the tight market, banks might be loathe to refinance at this time.

Let me repeat that there is no other man or other woman. Neither one of us have cheated. That's not a problem in this situation at all. Why does everyone keep assuming that one or both of us have cheated?

Anyway, what have I done to fix things? I have asked for counseling for 3 years now but he won't go. He thinks we should be able to fix things on our own. But then when I want to talk about our marriage, he changes the subject.

He is a very angry person. He is the type of person that has a black cloud over him everywhere he goes. Every thought in his head is negative. He is very judgemental of other people.

He is obsessed with money. We make 200K between the two of us but it will never be enough. He pressures me to make more. I almost lost my job last month because of the downturn of the economy and he didn't give me any emotional support. He just basically said that I better hurry up and get another job (even though we would be OK if I didn't find another one for a few months). His biggest concern about the divorce is how it will affect HIM - financially.

Let me give you just one example of the type of behavior I am tired of. This weekend we went to a wedding reception. We left at 9pm and as we were leaving, I carried my son while my husband carried the diaper bag. He walked his normal 20 feet ahead of me. It was really dark and crowded in there and difficult to get to the exit but he kept on walking. I got my high heel caught in the DJ's microphone cord and fell to the ground while holding my son. I yelled for my husband to come and help me. He just shook his head, quickly walked back to me, picked up our son, and steamed off towards the car, with me still on the ground. And then he was mad that he had to sit and wait in the car for me (didn't come to pick me up).

That is TYPICAL BEHAVIOR for him. I'm tired of it. He doesn't do anything to try to fix the marriage or his anger issues.

Like I said before, I think my son would be better off if we split up because then he wouldn't have to witness things like that.

I don't know what else to say. My marriage is over. I have questions regarding the financials and custody if anyone can help me out there.

Thanks.

I do not live in Michigan and have never fought over child custody but I do know a little bit about real estate from my own divorce. My lawyer told me that if my ex would not buy me out or get the properties refinanced in his name then I could petition the court to force the sale of the properties.

I know if your name is still on the mortgage it will be very hard if not impossible for you to buy another house. Not to mention what will happen to your credit if he defaults. From your post it does not sound like he would let that happen but the economy is bad.

I know you already know this but the best place to get legal advice is from a lawyer in your state.

OK, so no reason to take his child away from him. The child is as much his as yours, so why is there even a question about custody. You want to leave the marriage, there is no marital misconduct, you are "merely" unhappy. You disagree with your husband and no longer want to be married.

Fine, leave. Leave all the stuff, the child, pack your clothes and go.

In your own words, you say he's a great father. So don't deprive your child of a moment away from this great father.

Divorcing because you are unhappy is a very SELFISH choice. You only compound this by taking a child away from the father.

Maybe he has a selfish wife and his anger is fueled by what's displayed in your attitude here. You are talking about breaking up a family for ONE reason, your happiness.

No one is right for one another, but people do the work to be the right person. Someone doesn't just decide I don't want to have sex anymore? So what's behind that? People don't just get angry. Anger is a secondary emotion, fueled by something else. So while I tongue in cheek suggested it was you, the reality is it may be some you, some life, some bad job, who knows? But leaving, you are not finding out.


Never huh? What's changed? Do you devote all of your attention to the child now, and he's now acting out. I don't know. Obviously you had sex at least once, since you have a child. What were you two doing right then that you no longer do.

What has changed?
Good for him. He took a vow, he's honoring the vow. I applaud him.
Did he say just for your son, or is that your assumption? Even so, why are you unable to find the good anymore? What changed. You could take the next 16 years going back to the good. Or you can complain. If there was a good relationship between the two of you before, it can be there again.

Frankly, you keep saying he's negative, but you've not said anything good about him since the first paragraph. Are you sure HE's the negative one?


So don't fight, love your husband. He can't fight alone.

If you don't like fighting, why even contemplate taking his son from him. That will be the mother of all battles.

So to say you don't want your son to see the two of you fighting is one of the biggest arguments AGAINST getting a divorce.

If you really mean what you say, then find a way to work WITH your husband. After all, divorce is just another big fight that solves none of the problems you have in your relationship and co-parenting with your husband.

Choosing to divorce will do NOTHING to stop the fighting. It will escalate the fighting.
Good for him. He took a vow, you took a vow, if you want to unilaterally break it, why should you be awarded as the primary custodian of a child? You are worried about what your child sees, so why not worry about what sort of message you are teaching with regards to keeping your word?
You are talking about taking his child, it SHOULD be an ugly fight. He's done nothing wrong and you have this sense of entitlement to the child based on nothing more than gender.

Gender equality, he is as fit a parent as you are. Since you want to unilaterally end the marriage, to me, that means you are the lesser fit parent of the two. Fighting to keep his child is the most healthy thing I've heard so far.

Should you choose to leave, I'm rooting for him to keep his child. Anyone who chooses to leave a man she says is a good parent and has done nothing wrong doesn't deserve to be the primary custodian of a child.

How generous, you will let him keep what was his already.

Have you seen any news in the past 12 months, the mortgage market is in the dumper, Congress is looking at a 700BILLION dollar bailout for the financial institutions who made bad investments in mortgage securities. Banks and mortgage brokers have far less capital to lend, so they have stricter lending standards. Depending on what you owe, the value of the properties, etc, it may be very difficult to re-fi the properties.

But if you want to leave, leave.

Let's see, your first marriage, he's been married before, and perhaps divorced. So he probably knows how difficult divorce really is. With two mortgages, he probably knows how much is going out to pay them. You say the two of you make 200K/year, but with two mortgages, not to mention all the other costs to have two properties, you losing your job WOULD have been a major stressor for the two of you.

Sure, I understand you wanted emotional support. So he wants financial support. Why are your needs more important than his? Instead of telling us he was wrong for being concerned about the job, why not explain why you were invalidating his stated needs while you complained about what he was doing?

What I'm saying is that neither one of you are approaching this right. You are doing many of the things you complain about in his behavior. Both of you have needs and each of you is screaming, "MEET MY NEEDS!" while ignoring the needs of the other.

If you leave him, why would you behave any different with your next husband? Will you keep getting married, have a child and then abandon your husband when things are not like a Disney romance?

Marriage is about being there, being committed. It's not just a collection of warm fuzzy feelings. It's about being there even when the feelings are not so good.

That's love. If you can't offer that to him, then you have no business complaining about what he does or doesn't do, nor do you have any business taking a child away from the man, simply because you are unable to keep your word and to really love him.
Why would a child "automatically" go with the mother? You said yourself he was a great father. You have demonstrated with your words that you may not be the candidate for mother of the year, you don't want to keep your word, and you contradict yourself saying you don't want to fight, but you want to take a child away from an innocent man.

The advice everyone is giving you is to remain in the marriage.

If you are unwilling to do that, then walk away, leave the child the assets and everything and walk away. Tell your husband the truth, you are unwilling and unable to keep your vow, so you are going to go, and not cause him even more hurt by taking his child or any marital property from him and the child

Both of those options will avoid a fight. I think both are honorable. Keeping your word is certainly honorable. If you are unwilling to do that, then walking away with nothing but your clothes and shoes would be the least damaging way you could leave.

I've been trying to avoid responding here, but for some reason I feel compelled to.

Please, think hard before you make any rash decisions that you can't "unmake" later. Do you have any idea of what divorcing is like? What divorced life is like? Especially the life of a divorced parent? Your primary reasons for wanting to divorce are,
First of all, your H has already warned you that a divorce will be an ugly battle. It will. There are dozens of live threads right now describing various posters' battles so I won't go into that further - you can read for yourself.

Second, you won't get automatic custody. You most likely will get some form of shared or joint custody - anything from 50/50 to every second weekend visitation by the noncustodial parent. Even when the child lives primarily with one parent, you can still have joint custody - which means BOTH parents still have to agree on decisions such as where to go to school, religion, doctors, dentists, whether to get braces, medical treatment options etc, etc, etc. Regardless of the living arrangement - who lives where in what house and with who - you are going to be coparenting with this man for the REST OF YOUR SON'S CHILDHOOD RIGHT THROUGH UNTIL HE GRADUATES COLLEGE!!! God help you if he goes to graduate school after that!

What this means is that this man, your husband, the one who's angry all the time, negative, doesn't have sex enough and isn't right for you is ALWAYS going to be a major part of your life. You can't avoid it. Even in child abuse cases, the abusing parent has to really screw up badly to be completely cut off from their child's life.

This man will be part of your life when you begin dating again.

This man will be part of your life when you get remarried to someone else.

You will also be part of his life. When he dates and when he marries. What if you don't like his girlfriend? You can't keep her from your son.

What are you going to do when he wants to send your son to private school and you don't?

What are you going to do when he allows your son to watch movies you find inappropriate?

Who's going to pay for all the expenses? I'm not talking child support or division of assets. I'm talking about down the road. What if your son wants to take up hockey - it's an expensive sport. What if your son wants a motorcycle and you think it's unsafe? What if your son wants to go to an Ivy League college? Who's paying?

See even happily married couples fight about these things all the time. How do unhappily divorced couples do it? You think you have problems with him now, just wait until the first disagreement as divorced parents. There's one story in someone's thread about carrots in the bottom of the lunch bag - yes THOSE trivial things turn into capital offences.

Your son is 16 months old right now. You have a minimum of 20 years of dealing with this man. He won't go away - it's just not possible. So if you don't want to stay married, prepare yourself for 20+ years of dealing with someone who is going to make decisions you don't like without consulting you and be fully in his right.

It's not an easy life and not one to be chosen simply because you are a little unhappy right now. You don't know about unhappiness until you live this.

And I'm not even going to mention the damage you are doing to your son because others have already addressed that.

I would strongly recommend against living like this much longer. If he is unwilling to do anything to improve your marriage, then IMHO, you are better off moving on. Be fair to him as far as custody goes. If you are willing to leave the home, let your child stay there with you getting very liberal visitation. I am concerned though that your husbands mood may darken further and that he may cause a lot of issues for your child.

I would speak to a psychologist and a child psychologist in addition to a lawyer. Let the lawyer know upfront that you are looking to be fair and not kill him in this.

Good luck.

I know MANY people that are happier post divorce. I know MANY children that are better off.

You paint a picture that is not the norm in terms of dealings with an ex spouse. Many of us here have the worst of the worst...but a lot of people make this work out quite well.

To suggest that a person doesn't know unhappiness until they divorce is just wrong. Many, many people are much better off having dumped their dead weight spouses.

True MEDC, but those people have actual real problems, like abuse and adultery, as opposed to "we just aren't right for each other". One doesn't just walk away from a marraige when there are small children involved.

Sorry, in my opinion...and I think a MC would agree...what she described is emotional abuse. Leaving her on the ground after he picked up his child is abuse. Walking twenty feet in front and acting like he does shows a complete lack of respect for this poster.

She has made it clear the marriage is done and over. If they can recover...great. But she appears to have made up her mind to leave this horrid man.

And she does have REAL problems...as real as yours and mine.

Questions,

Like I said before I have never been in a custody battle but whatever you do don't leave your child unless there is an order in place. Since your H is so involved 50/50 custody might be ideal in your situation. Seriously you need to see a lawyer and find out the laws in your state.

My divorce was messy and my ex made lots of threats too about dragging it out. When it came down to it that's all it was threats with nothing to back it up with. The laws are there for a reason.

Again do not move out before there is a custody order in place.

MEDC, I agree with you (!)

This man is emotionally abusive and if he is unwilling to recognize that and change it, she IMHO has every right to leave this toxic marriage.

I also agree that if he is willing to talk to the Harleys or a good marriage coach and work on his anger and abuse, maybe the marriage can be saved. But, part of the spouse’s response to abuse is to withdraw emotionally as a means for protection. It’s a survival instinct. Once you reach that state, it’s very difficult to reach the intimacy state again because of the fear that your spouse will harm you.

Sometimes you read this stuff and you just realize that there has to be "The Rest of the Story".

I see no reason to not take her at her word.

And this is much of what I'm asking.

Someone isn't loving one day and then suddenly decides not to be loving anymore.

The assumption here is that the person not here is the bad guy. Sometimes that's true, sometimes it's not.

But the same advice applies, you meet needs and eliminate love busters.

So the question I've asked is what has changed since she married him? She says she's not having an affair. Is he? Is she telling the truth? Has she shifted her focus from him to the child? Has there been job related stress? How about financial issues?

There could be any number of issues that are fueling his anger. Some may be in his control. Some may be fueled by her.

Am I saying his anger is right, or appropriate? Of course not.

But I also know that there are two sides to every story, and someone who wants to leave and puts all the blame on the other person is not telling us the whole truth.

She has not told us what her love busting behavior is. She paints the picture as if he's the only one who LB's. It looked like she was having an affair to many people.

I'll go one step further, she's having a virtual affair. There's no particular candidate, it's just a nameless, faceless man who is NOT her husband. She dreams of leaving her husband to find this yet unknown man.

It's a theory, but I'll bet there is a large element of truth to it.

No one here is saying that he's behaving well. But like in every other situation, the behavior that we can address is only the behavior of those who participate here.

So rather than taking what she has said at face value, I want to know more about her LB'ing. What has changed since they married, and how are they working it out.

Perhaps it is HIM who has already withdrawn as evidenced by the behavior with the fall. (Ugly behavior, sure, but what was going on prior to that?)

I see signs that she may be immature, treating the child as if it's only her child, should go with her merely because of gender.

So I don't think she's done everything she could possibly do in terms of marriage building.

She may need to erect healthy boundaries so that she doesn't tolerate horrible behavior on his part. But she also has to stop any LB'ing behavior of her own.

The fact that she goes on and on about his faults, while apparently ignoring any contribution she has made to the current state of the marriage is a big red flag to me and tells me there is likely more to this than she is sharing with us.

She may be 100% accurate about him.

But she leaves out the parts regarding her contributions to the current state of the marriage, and that is the biggest red flag in her story. It's all about his faults.

That's right out of the waywards script.

Like I said above, she may not be actively wayward, but it would not surprise me if she was already entertaining fantasies about yet unnamed men. What would it be like with another man, etc.

That's a wayward mindset.

So while I don't doubt he needs to improve, I am skeptical that she has done everything possible to eliminate her LB'ing behavior and meet his most important emotional needs.

Call it BH's intuition.

I just don't see anything here that suggests a D is in order, but SHE keeps insisting that there is nothing left, other than what appear to be exaggerated (rewritten history) claims of some type of faux abuse.

Plus, she admits that he's a "great father" ... how many "great" fathers do you know who are also "terrible" husbands? A few ... not many.

Anything is possible, but how many women do we see come here under these circumstances insisting on D, especially with a small child? None come to mind in the past year.

So the guy has AO's and one specific instance of disrespectful behavior ... maybe this all hits too close to home ... but I heard almost this exact same rewritten history of my M at one point.

She may be being completely honest, but given the unusual circumstances that brings her to this point of insisting on a D, I think a good healthy dose of reasonable doubt may be in order.