I feel for ya bud, I'm whipping up and down like a rollercoaster this week. W gave me long lecture about how she never felt we were a match and wants to be on her own. Of course, she has said the opposite 10 times in the last 30 days. She is in total withdrawal since she last saw OM just 14 days ago.

Then she says she doesn't want to make any decisions and lets go hit the sack. It's like living with a crazy person.

I wish my W 'initiated', but happens about every time Halley's comet comes around!

On the whole, had a good weekend, we both kept busy as we're having work done on our house this week.

What does your W say about having the kids? Does she want them?

Added some stuff to my previous post, isn't relevant to this though.

Geez, looks like I'm all over the place as well!

My initial response is "SO????"
I mean, her "This is MY thing" was because she wanted to protect her A. It's IB on her part, and dishonesty, and probably half a dozen other non-MB things. So I don't think you're honor-bound to respect that particular request of hers.

And if she and the other mums know you're watching, they might not be quite so complacent about the A. Who knows what they think of you? They might think you're a cold emotionless sterile creature, or an angry threatening monster. If you show up as a supportive spouse, encouraging her to do HER thing, and showing pride in her activities, I don't see how it could hurt.

Take that P.A. and MAKE IT YOURS.
I mean, it'll still be hers, of course. But you can be the first lady to her president. Be at her side and proud and beaming. Make them all love you.

I know this will be hard on the nerves (to put it mildly). Try not to let them see you throw up. Be discrete.

When you go to these meetings.....get involved don't sit back. Let all involved that you are not what your wife probably has been portraying. Have fun making your wife and the OM uncomfortable!!!

IF I do go to the AGM, I'm sure OM will know about it (i.e. My W will text one of her buddies to pass the news on) and will make himself scarce. Again, IF I go, I feel like telling some of those women some home truths, especially the one who let my W use her phone to call OM and also 'stood guard' while my W and OM were up to no good.

The meeting the week after (Governors meeting) is by invitation only, and only my W has been invited from the P.A. as she is the Chairman. How do I get around that one?

Sorry, just got in from work and it's nearly 4am over here, I'm off to bed. Catch you all later

IF I do go to the AGM, I'm sure OM will know about it (i.e. My W will text one of her buddies to pass the news on) and will make himself scarce.

Perfect!

The meeting the week after (Governors meeting) is by invitation only, and only my W has been invited from the P.A. as she is the Chairman. How do I get around that one?

Is it an "away" meeting? Go with her and sight-see or read while she's in meetings and then go out with her when she's not in meetings. My uncle used to travel some for his job and my aunt went whenever she could. She'd read or shop while he was busy and then they'd do touristy stuff or find a good restaurant when he was free.

Phil,

On another thread, you asked about the 14 steps I said there was in boundary enforcements (between the stay and go poles).

It's an arbitrary number. Couldn't use 12...that's been taken.



With boundary enforcements, the first is stating the violation...then stating and removing...removing longer...longer...they are progressive and predetermined...not reactions...promises we make to ourselves...so we know our last line, last time crossed...and respect the other person does it by choice...not accident.

Nor do we. When we keep crossing that line, we're actually moving it to accommodate something inside ourselves...so check the line, check ourselves.

What would you do if you weren't afraid?

What would you do if you wanted your marriage more than anything else on this earth?

You wouldn't mind self-image, how you might be seen or not...like with your kids...if someone said, "Oh, don't see them for six months because they might feel uncomfortable"...would that hold you back?

You're her husband. Be the husband.

Your 14 boundary enforcement steps go around yourself...what you won't hold yourself to doing, you certainly won't enforce when others do them, will you?

Being betrayed in marriage feels like you got erased...didn't count...were invisible...disregarded and discarded.

Your presence never stopped mattering. Showing up, being present, matters. When you do this, though you fear greatly, you come to realize and experience your presence mattering.

Which makes all the difference.

LA

No, it's at the same school 5 mins from where we live. If I sit outside in the car, I'll only be able to see into reception area. Not sure where meeting will take place (inside school) or for how long. OM will be floating around as he locks up at the end.

I'm sorry LA, I'm going to have to read that lots of times before it begins to make sense!

By boundary enforcements, do you mean tolerance levels?

Hey, do you know where I can get some pot? :-)

Can you make plans to do something really enticing after the meeting - like dinner at her favorite restaurant? Or maybe you can do something that meets a couple of her top ENs. You could just sit in the car and read until she's done.

You'll know she's done when folks start coming out the door. That's your queue to get out of the car, go in, and meet her. Be warm and engaging and happy to see her.

Tolerance is you dictating your actions by your resulting emotions, IMO.

Boundaries are predetermined...I don't think tolerance is, if I'm understanding you correctly.

It's about what you're willing to do or not do.

You won't remove your children from the school and you won't move. You are willing to divorce (that's what I heard) if contact continues? How many times? How many opportunities for contact, without actual contact?

So you aren't teammates with your partner to help her get to NC and go through withdrawal. You've chosen to stay near the bar, IMO, and hold your addict WW to not drinking. Because your children attend that school, there will be contact...accidental, intentional, otherwise...maybe not for months or years, or weeks. You live five minutes from the bar, right?

Boundaries are about what you're willing to do and not do.

I thought I understood your point about not exposing up the chain of command at the school, because you cannot get him fired...in fact, you probably couldn't substantiate a case for a restraining order, either. The school and the court would acknowledge your option of moving or changing schools, your choices, wouldn't they?

I thought OM had a GF, not a BW, or am I confusing stories with Mike's? Probably.

So you make the boundaries around contact...is it okay for her to visual glimpse him when at the school for PA mtg, or dropping off lunches, or something, but not to talk to verbally? Not to be alone with? Okay as long as two other people are there, too? What if they are two people you designate?

Too blurry for me. I had to go through three months of contact for three days a week with WH...knowing until his transfer came through, we were playing blurry, necessary line...where they are back to "professional" relationship only...which wasn't true, the A continued...until he transferred...and there's been NC for three and a half years. She's not a blip on our radar.

I would have moved. I would changed my kids' schools, even (though my heart hurts for those consequences they had no choice in and no control over...infidelity affects them longer in life than changing schools)...an intact family is more precious than any possible offer of education at that particular school...their attention, focus, safety and security drops way down when their parents divorce...and you will...so where's the protection, the profit for them?

Did you inform them what is going on? What would you do if they asked you, point blank, to move and change schools because of OM?

Our boundary on contact four years ago...if she called, went to his new work location, wrote a letter...or if he even saw her at a work meeting, across a parking lot...or even heard about her from another coworker in the company...then he'd immediately call and inform me of contact. That was the enforcement. If he chose not to and I found out first (I snooped in front of him), then he would inform our sons and move out, and if he didn't, I would.

Didn't happen...no next 10 or 13 steps...we stuck with the exercises, with the UA time, the radical honesty; worked on the pre-A issues...and what I held him to, I held myself to, also.

I'm wondering how to ask Mike how mockery works for him.

Communication is tough...even about concrete things...let alone intangibles. Up to us to know what we promise ourselves to do (because we broke our first promise to ourselves that if we were cheated on, it was over, defacto)...sorting out our real boundaries form our wishful ones.

Other steps within the NC boundary were holding himself to telling me of it, his thoughts and reactions, and holding himself to not pursuing in any way. He even told me when he dreamed of her once, calling him on the phone. Two years after DDay, he told me about another coworker asking him about OW and him holding himself to saying nothing (no pursuit) and changing the subject.

With us practicing these, carefully, highest priority, it helped in practicing enforcing our other boundaries...such as mockery...it was one of our pre-A issues...and mine was DJs...and we'd catch ourselves right then, acknowledge and apologize...rebuilding our trust and love...just to hear the other say, "I saw what I did just now. That hurt. I'm sorry" had a lot of impact.

If you won't enforce it around you, you can't enforce it when others cross it. You can try. You'll fail. I only know from experience.

If the increased possibility of contact is acceptable to you, Phil, then I guess you can call that tolerance. I know that contact continues the A...heck, I knew that from reading Harley, and when DH was in withdrawal, with our MC saying to choose his thoughts, focus on his family, his ultimate path to happiness...WH (back then said), "But if I don't think about her, I won't want to be with her by the time I make that choice!" Foggy mourning. Very true words.

What would you say to attending the meeting, uninvited, cheerfully at your WW's side, and if asked why you're there, "Oh, I'm here to protect my wife from contact with her affair partner. He's the janitor here. Hey, nice suit!"

Okay, doesn't sound manly...and yet, it is the epitome, I think. Just everyday, run-of-the-mill, doesn't-everyone-do-this tone. Like the stereotype, "Shopping, you know how it is" thing with the eye-roll.

You gotta do what you choose to do, eh?

What is your readiness for Plan B? Am I mixed up that you were working on a letter, separating finances, etc? Did you read ellein's post today?

I can't imagine being in your shoes this long...worn the shoes...your choice to continue to make the same choices and expect different results could be solely my perception...sure is painful. To not tell your children the truth...already.

I wonder if that's what WW's parents did...lied by omission about reality to save her hurt...so fantasy trumped reality? Mine did. My first mother found out she was dying a year after they adopted me...and they didn't tell us (too young) and she was dying for seven more years...lots of hospital stays, unexplained colds, days in bed...because of course God wouldn't let her die, right?

I remember the shock of hearing my father on the phone while I was doing dishes, informing a distant relative that they'd known all along, were hoping for the best, preparing for the worst...I thought people just fell over and died, suddenly...and got the belief that if you knew it would happen, you wouldn't cry. And I'd seen my father crying when he told us she died.

See how we train ourselves in fantasy? If they don't know we're cheating, they won't hurt...and yet, you hurt anyway...and it isn't about you, yet we use the justifications to MAKE it to ourselves about you. How much fantasy we use in any given day...can't even imagine, even when healthy. All sorts of soothing, deceptive beliefs in there, aren't there?

Fantasy: If I do this, she'll do that...because I know her so well...(rationally, so then you knew she'd have an affair?)...which proves I love her so well...because I know everything about her...and then you don't...couldn't conceive...what happened to the proof you loved or she loved you, then?

The better I could see the fantasy stuff in my head...that stinkin' thinkin'...the better I could hear it out of my WH's mouth and understand...not buy into. Not believe. I didn't even know my believing him was on automatic...until I disengaged it.

I know your schools are different, heard your available MC sucks...make your choices anyway...God will provide. Unceasingly. No matter where you live.

Lemme know if you have questions...like how your presence at her side matters, even if it seems embarrassing...let others be embarrassed, 'k?

LA

So you aren't teammates with your partner to help her get to NC and go through withdrawal. You've chosen to stay near the bar, IMO, and hold your addict WW to not drinking. Because your children attend that school, there will be contact...accidental, intentional, otherwise...maybe not for months or years, or weeks. You live five minutes from the bar, right?
Now that's a really good point, and one I hadn't considered.

If she won't quit the P.A. then move.
Change schools.

You'll have to if you D, anyway, so you may as well do it in an attempt to save the M.

If she won't quit the P.A. then I feel that she is telling me she thinks more of that, than our marriage. I'm trying to think of how to phrase it without giving an ultimatum.

I've had long conversations with my SIL and she thinks my W will do it again, not necessarily with OM but maybe someone else. We had the 'problem' last week with her flirting with a guy at work, which she denied obviously. But, she is a flirt and I know that...So I don't think moving will provide the solution. I'm not sure if it is just 'fogspeak' or whether she meant the things she has said in the past year.

LA thank you for your reply. I haven't got time to post my own retort to that as W will be home in the next 30 mins. I'll try to post when I get in from work tonight

To me, boundaries and ultimatums are very similar. This, to me, is the key distinction:
Boundaries are about protecting yourself.
Ultimatums are about controlling the other person.

Boundary:
If you won't quit the P.A. and agree to NC and extraordinary precautions, I will move to X city to protect myself from the pain of seeing you involved with OM.

Ultimatum:
If you won't quit the P.A. and agree to NC and extraordinary precautions, I will move to X city so you are no longer able to have contact with OM.

The outcome of each is the same, but the motivation is entirely different.

Tolerance is you dictating your actions by your resulting emotions, IMO.

Boundaries are predetermined...I don't think tolerance is, if I'm understanding you correctly.

Either the boundaries have been passed or my toleration levels have stretched. probably both.

It's about what you're willing to do or not do.

You won't remove your children from the school and you won't move.

I don't feel that is an option

You are willing to divorce (that's what I heard) if contact continues? How many times? How many opportunities for contact, without actual contact?

I honestly don't know. She's the one who has gone 'dark'. I don't know one way or another.

So you aren't teammates with your partner to help her get to NC and go through withdrawal. You've chosen to stay near the bar, IMO, and hold your addict WW to not drinking. Because your children attend that school, there will be contact...accidental, intentional, otherwise...maybe not for months or years, or weeks. You live five minutes from the bar, right?

I WILL help her. I've always been here for her. But I'm not going to be driven away by OM, that's how I see it

Boundaries are about what you're willing to do and not do.

I thought I understood your point about not exposing up the chain of command at the school, because you cannot get him fired...in fact, you probably couldn't substantiate a case for a restraining order, either. The school and the court would acknowledge your option of moving or changing schools, your choices, wouldn't they?

I thought OM had a GF, not a BW, or am I confusing stories with Mike's? Probably.

OM has a GF/Fiancee

So you make the boundaries around contact...is it okay for her to visual glimpse him when at the school for PA mtg, or dropping off lunches, or something, but not to talk to verbally? Not to be alone with? Okay as long as two other people are there, too? What if they are two people you designate?

Not feasible and not workable IMO. Who would do it? I would like her to give up ALL association with the school unless I'm with her. Kids do not need taking to school, yet she insists on going.

Too blurry for me. I had to go through three months of contact for three days a week with WH...knowing until his transfer came through, we were playing blurry, necessary line...where they are back to "professional" relationship only...which wasn't true, the A continued...until he transferred...and there's been NC for three and a half years. She's not a blip on our radar.

I would have moved. I would changed my kids' schools, even (though my heart hurts for those consequences they had no choice in and no control over...infidelity affects them longer in life than changing schools)...an intact family is more precious than any possible offer of education at that particular school...their attention, focus, safety and security drops way down when their parents divorce...and you will...so where's the protection, the profit for them?

W will not move out of area. Her family are here and she won't move away from them.

Did you inform them what is going on? What would you do if they asked you, point blank, to move and change schools because of OM?

No, not yet. D15 knows there has been a problem with M and that OM is involved in some way. D13 is oblivious to what's been going on. In front of the Ds we seem to be getting on so well. If they asked to move, which I doubt, I would reconsider.

Our boundary on contact four years ago...if she called, went to his new work location, wrote a letter...or if he even saw her at a work meeting, across a parking lot...or even heard about her from another coworker in the company...then he'd immediately call and inform me of contact. That was the enforcement. If he chose not to and I found out first (I snooped in front of him), then he would inform our sons and move out, and if he didn't, I would.

Still cannot see her leaving house whatever happens. As far as she is concerned, it's all finished with. NC since May, which I know not to be true.

Didn't happen...no next 10 or 13 steps...we stuck with the exercises, with the UA time, the radical honesty; worked on the pre-A issues...and what I held him to, I held myself to, also.

I'm wondering how to ask Mike how mockery works for him.

Communication is tough...even about concrete things...let alone intangibles. Up to us to know what we promise ourselves to do (because we broke our first promise to ourselves that if we were cheated on, it was over, defacto)...sorting out our real boundaries form our wishful ones.

Other steps within the NC boundary were holding himself to telling me of it, his thoughts and reactions, and holding himself to not pursuing in any way. He even told me when he dreamed of her once, calling him on the phone. Two years after DDay, he told me about another coworker asking him about OW and him holding himself to saying nothing (no pursuit) and changing the subject.

At the moment I can't see when I will trust her again?

With us practicing these, carefully, highest priority, it helped in practicing enforcing our other boundaries...such as mockery...it was one of our pre-A issues...and mine was DJs...and we'd catch ourselves right then, acknowledge and apologize...rebuilding our trust and love...just to hear the other say, "I saw what I did just now. That hurt. I'm sorry" had a lot of impact.

If you won't enforce it around you, you can't enforce it when others cross it. You can try. You'll fail. I only know from experience.

If the increased possibility of contact is acceptable to you, Phil, then I guess you can call that tolerance. I know that contact continues the A...heck, I knew that from reading Harley, and when DH was in withdrawal, with our MC saying to choose his thoughts, focus on his family, his ultimate path to happiness...WH (back then said), "But if I don't think about her, I won't want to be with her by the time I make that choice!" Foggy mourning. Very true words.

I've 'overheard' her telling people "I don't know who to choose (Me or OM) but I can't make a balanced judgement with Phil around me 24 hours a day". This was a few months ago, I don't know if her feelings have changed since then.

What would you say to attending the meeting, uninvited, cheerfully at your WW's side, and if asked why you're there, "Oh, I'm here to protect my wife from contact with her affair partner. He's the janitor here. Hey, nice suit!"

Doesn't that only happen in movies? Sounds great in theory...

Okay, doesn't sound manly...and yet, it is the epitome, I think. Just everyday, run-of-the-mill, doesn't-everyone-do-this tone. Like the stereotype, "Shopping, you know how it is" thing with the eye-roll.

You gotta do what you choose to do, eh?

What is your readiness for Plan B? Am I mixed up that you were working on a letter, separating finances, etc? Did you read ellein's post today?

Yes, found elleins post, was very uplifting. Not ready for Plan B, have not done letter. Back to original dilemma, she won't move out, I have nowhere to go and if I did, she would have what she wants. Do I stop paying the mortgage? I don't want the house re-possessed, would screw my credit rating for next time. She can't live on her salary that's for sure.

I can't imagine being in your shoes this long...worn the shoes...your choice to continue to make the same choices and expect different results could be solely my perception...sure is painful. To not tell your children the truth...already.

I wonder if that's what WW's parents did...lied by omission about reality to save her hurt...so fantasy trumped reality? Mine did. My first mother found out she was dying a year after they adopted me...and they didn't tell us (too young) and she was dying for seven more years...lots of hospital stays, unexplained colds, days in bed...because of course God wouldn't let her die, right?

I remember the shock of hearing my father on the phone while I was doing dishes, informing a distant relative that they'd known all along, were hoping for the best, preparing for the worst...I thought people just fell over and died, suddenly...and got the belief that if you knew it would happen, you wouldn't cry. And I'd seen my father crying when he told us she died.

See how we train ourselves in fantasy? If they don't know we're cheating, they won't hurt...and yet, you hurt anyway...and it isn't about you, yet we use the justifications to MAKE it to ourselves about you. How much fantasy we use in any given day...can't even imagine, even when healthy. All sorts of soothing, deceptive beliefs in there, aren't there?

Fantasy: If I do this, she'll do that...because I know her so well...(rationally, so then you knew she'd have an affair?)...which proves I love her so well...because I know everything about her...and then you don't...couldn't conceive...what happened to the proof you loved or she loved you, then?

I thought I knew her but she has changed this past year and a bit.

The better I could see the fantasy stuff in my head...that stinkin' thinkin'...the better I could hear it out of my WH's mouth and understand...not buy into. Not believe. I didn't even know my believing him was on automatic...until I disengaged it.

I know your schools are different, heard your available MC sucks...make your choices anyway...God will provide. Unceasingly. No matter where you live.

Lemme know if you have questions...like how your presence at her side matters, even if it seems embarrassing...let others be embarrassed, 'k?

LA

Always more questions than answers eh?

As an aside, she's not been feeling to well today and she was laying in my lap. I was cuddling her trying to make her feel better. Not sure how it came up but I said "I've always looked after you when you've been ill haven't I?" She acknowledged this and said "Yes, you've always been there for me". I think she would miss me if I wasn't around, but...

Well 2moro's AGM has been cancelled or should I say postponed, 'cause it will take place at some stage. I was getting myself all psyched about it. She has not invited me to it but I was going to give her a 'nice' surprise by turning up. After all, it is for parents isn't it? Not sure how it would've/will go down, or whether to go into actual meeting or wait outside in car. Part of me wants to blast this out of the water with her other 'buddies'. And yet, I never have the courage of my convictions.

The weekend was so nice, if there wasn't the suspicion of something going on, you'd say we had a perfect marriage???!!!

She called me on her lunchbreak earlier to see what had been happening etc. and was fine yet, when I called her back about 20 mins later it was like she didn't want to talk to me, hushed tones and keeping it short. She was back at work by then with the other girls she works with. Perhaps she's ashamed of me or OM had been in touch, who knows. Her boss (a woman) knows about OM, I'm pretty sure.

A bump to the top. Comments welcome. Will update tonight If I get a chance

Well, 'overheard' W talking to SIL on the phone last night. She doesn't say too much about OM to her as she knows SIL does not condone the A. She has told SIL it's all over anyway, but I tell SIL the truth. She was talking about how P.A. meeting was cancelled and she would rather get it out of the way 'cause it causes tension at home.

I was very low last night while I was at work and I cried for the first time in ages, it just all got to me. She has a governor's meeting next week at the school and she hasn't mentioned it to me. Not sure how to play it.

It's our DD's 15th birthday today, so we're having family around. We have all these good times yet seemingly she still wants to be a cake eater?? Like someone else said, it's the not knowing one way or another that gets to you...