It's done -- I sent the card above to my H today. I also wrote in the inside:

I hope you have a wonderful day however you decide to celebrate.

Love always,
{my name}
Aka Spitmouth.

He can ignore it or respond to it BUT at least he knows that

I love him
I am thinking about him
I am celebrating the day he was born
I think he is a treasure
I wish him happiness

I am not letting his decisions about my birthday (to not send a card or email) govern my actions. He made a choice in April and I made choice in September -- to love him always.

{"Steve said it would be a difficult to get my H back because we don't have children there is really nothing to bind my H and I together. The thing I have to do is get him to have a different image of me and to believe that his best chance at happiness is with his first wife (me). Steve said that I needed to interact as much as possible with my H-- otherwise it is "out of sight, out of mind." "}

So did Steve say that if you interact with him as much as possible there is still a chance? If that is the case then, there must also be a limit to this “as much as possible” unless, MMM you are willing to try for years at a time. During my H first A I was seeing one of the top counselors here in italy (she retired unfortunately, otherwise i would be seeing her now for this separation issue.) She told me that when a man falls out of love because of the misery of a Marriage and the abuse of one spouse (us) he is in a state of detox. He sees the spouse as toxic, physically feels it, not just in his mind. He just can’t help it. Memories of the verbal abuse and the pain he had to go thru do not seem to leave him (in fact my H just told me that even if I changed and he can see that rationally, he still does not feel it: to him I feel the same ”) She said that with persistence you might have the man fall back in love with you, but it might take at least one year and up to 3 years. There is no way to tell. The more messed up the M the more time it will take. She also encouraged me to set a deadline. To say: ok I am willing (and mentally and physically) able to pursue a reconciliation for X amount of time after which I am going to move on with my life and enjoy the changes i am making for myself and maybe with a new person. It is wrong to see our life useful and valid and worth living only if we get back with our Hs. There must be a time where we surrender and say: ok he does not want to spend his life with me, I better move on out of respect for myself. So, MMM, I guess you (and me) have to set a deadline for ourselves otherwise we will go crazy. You are much younger than I am (in your early 30s?) I am in my early 40s. We can still be happy with someone else if this really does not work out in spite of all our efforts. My deadline is June 09. Nine months: if these nine months of gestation do not give birth to a renewed marriage and love relationship between me and H, then I will move on. It has already been 2 months since he told me he wanted to separate. I will be giving him almost a year by the end of it all to see the changes I am making and trust that they are permanent. I can’t control how he feels however. And even if Steve says that feelings change and we should not rely on them to make important decisions, it is also fair to say that if, after one year, my H can’t get over the pain of the M and does not feel good things towards me…then there is not much to hope for.

{I will send the card -- but like you Gen, I am getting tired and this separation is taking its toll. My H is hurting me on purpose and he knows it. He knows I want to reconcile and we are just playing this little cat and mouse game. It is exhausting.}

Yes, another thing that top counselor said (and also Melody) is that our Hs resent us. And they hurt us in purpose. This cat and mouse game is abusive towards us, it hurts us. They know it and they are playing hard to get ‘cause it is easy for them to do: they do not like to be with us much anyway. Plus they like to punish us for the pain we put them thru. We are dealing with humans and they act in a very human way. HOWEVER, we should ignore this fact and not let it affect us for the time we decide to dedicate to the healing of the M. (and especially after, should the M survive!!) We have to tell ourselves that that is part of the process and that hopefully they will see the changes and feel that it is no longer a need of theirs to hurt us. She said that the key to survive for the period we decide to dedicate to this attempt is to IGNORE all the negative actions and things they say to us. Most of the time they do not mean it, they are just reacting to our abuses from the past. think of a wounded animal. Once the wound heals their reaction changes.

{My H doesn't have any special skills per se . . .like computers. If I ask him for help, he will tell me that I can hire someone because he left me all the money in the savings account. I think that is how he soothes his guilt -- in his mind, he has taken care of me by leaving me money. Well, I hate to tell him (and won't tell him because he will get angry) but money isn't a subtitute for a life partner.}
MMM you will have to think hard of something he can do for which you can’t hire anybody. You have to build on something. What are you planning on using as a way to set up dates with him? You must find an excuse. A very short hike? An art opening…I don’t know. But you have to start thinking of ways to see him as often as possible and for brief amounts of time.
ALSO: when you see him do you deck up? Look sexy and super attractive? The way you dress, talk etc…is very important (Melody taught me this and it is useful really!)
Do you pretty much dress the same way you did when you two lived together or are you trying to look sexier?Do you weare make-up? Do you speak softly? Do you listen a lot, nod and flap your eyelashes? (please see the first pages of my thread for the details Melody gave me about this).
Even if this sounds diminishing to a woman, hey…other Ws do it!!! You should see here in Europe how they dress!! MMM, if I do not do it, my H will certainly find 1,000 of Ws who deck up, are intelligent and look super sexy. There would be no comparison to me if I were to look plain, poorly dressed, not sexy etc I could behave light years better from the way I used to, but all he would see would be poor un-kept me! …Many of these European women are intelligent and have top careers, however their appearance is important to them. It is the muscles they do not have and they can get pretty much what they want from a man. They know how to flirt and get their attention. You do not have to look like a bimbo of course. Sexy, attractive, smell good, speak softly put on make up, do your hair…physically try to look like a different person. Physical appearance is what people notice first about us. Hey if you look the same, even if you changed he will not really register. He is a guy after all..Try and look sexy and I bet he will notice! He will also wonder if you are doing it for him only. Let him wonder!

I have lost 30 lbs since my H left so yes, when I saw him I tried to get dressed up a little without going overboard (he would see right through that.)

Steve said we would have to go very, very slowly with this process of getting back into my H's life. Otherwise my H will see it as manipulation and not true change.

My H knows I am a very strong, smart and capable person. There isn't anything I can think of that I would need him for/to do/give advice about that I couldn't hire someone to do or do it myself. So any contact with him will have to be about me wanting to share our lives with each other.

Right now, it appears that I am the one who wants to share my life with him and not the other way around. He did admit that he thinks about me and wonders what I am doing. I don't think he is going to let himself get sucked back in.

It is so sad because we really are "meant to be." I can feel that deep into my core.

I figured I would give it a year of separation -- until April 09. I will be turning 33 that month. I don't want to be with anyone else and I doubt I will marry again. I truly think that if our Hs want the divorce, then they should bear the responsibility of ending the marriage legally. Like SoulDragon said, it is tough to break those vows. I've been to a lawyers office and I've not been able to take the final leap and file for divorce.

My H hasn't even seen a lawyer -- I don't think he ever wants to do it truly -- because that means its final, final and that's scary. And it will ultimately be him that ends the marriage --he will have divorced me and it will go on record that way. So he will have to do all the explaining to friends and family. The fact is -- I am willing to work on this marriage and demonstrate the changes I am making. If he denies us that opportunity, then death of the marriage rests with him. SAme with your H. Many people on this forum may disagree with me and that's fine.

I don't want a divorce so why should I bear that burden?

MEDC raising his hand.

You were the abuser in this marriage. IF it ends, that burden does and should rest with you. Hopefully, it is something he recovers from and that you learn from. I see problems though with your attitude...you are failing to take responsibility that sometimes we abuse someone so much that they are better off without us. That is a healthy decision for them...and not their burden to carry.

Your entire posts smells of someone that is so wounded she can't see things correctly. This above comment is silly, at best. Please get help from a licensed therapist.

Medc, thank you for your post.
We are all wounded in one way or the other in this forum otherwise we would not be here. I have seen therapists for years. All they did was talk about feelings and that's where they got me to. The idea that i am entitled to act on them!!! Imagine!
Just because we were the abusers it does not mean we do not have the right to change and pursue happiness. Our Hs have 50% of the responsibility for the M. I can speak for mine, and he is a good person but he has put me thru a lot in 18 years (see my thread: EN, H wants to separate in one year.)
The way you keep repeating that MMM is the abuser etc...makes me feel as if she really has no hope for herself and she should punish herself for her actions for the rest of her life. The blame has to stop at some point.
I agree with you, MMM. Your H left and he should ask for divorce not you. Your H had the choice to leave the M many times (you have no kids on top of that) he decided to stay. Then eventually he left but he is not asking for a divorce. Is he acting like a victim or he just does not care...who knows!
And yes, MMM, you should deck up. Not for your H, but for yourself. It will make you feel a lot better. And should you H comment, just tell him that: looking great makes me feel great. And yes, make him wonder. That is the courtship game and it can be fun. Not everything has to be so gloomy and guilt drenched just because you were the abuser. Because you no longer are!!!

not at all. I think she can learn...as I said...and move forward. BUT, that does not mean her husband need take her back. There are also some things in her post that give me concern.

As for your H's having 50% of the responsibility for the marriage...sorry, this is where you lose me. ANY person that abuses another assumes a much bigger portion of "blame" for the consequences of the abuse. The victim is not to be saddled with fault a marital failure in these cases.

Unfortunately Medc, my H is becoming the abuser (see my thread). I can see first hand now how much i hurt him as he is hurting me badly in return. BUT, he could leave, instead he decided to stay till June for our son as if I son were blind and deaf (he is 17 and can tell things are not right between his parents)
But i do not want to take away from MMM post.

{BUT, that does not mean her husband need take her back.}

So you are suggesting she takes initiative and divorces him and moves on freeing him from the burden of her trying to win him back?

{There are also some things in her post that give me concern. }

Medc, maybe it will help you if pointed them out. we are here for that and we can only learn from our mistakes.

not at all.

I can imagine a man that has abused his wife saying these things being fried on this board. Well, yes, I punched her...but she is the one that wants the divorce...so she is responsible.

MMM can change and be a great person...but if her H walks away because of her past abuse...SHE is responsible for the failure of the marriage. People are not entitled to second, third, forth chances....and an abused person should not be faulted for wanting to protect themselves from future abuse.

Then obviouly, Medc, I am not getting it.

A husband doesn't KNOW this stuff from a card...he knows it from your consistent and reliable actions.

This is NOT okay.

I don't feel that the problems in my marriage were 100% my fault nor do I believe that it was a 50-50 split. However, I have taken accountability and responsibility for the majority of the problems; what the percentage split is, I don't know.

As I read the LB book, I found that I committed many of the Love Busters; but it also opened my eyes to my H's contribution. His main one was dishonesty -- many times I suspected he was lying about his true feelings and other things I didn't know until after he was gone. For example, for years he just kept letting me talk about having children and played along. Then it came out in December that he had given up the dream long ago. I don't think he is a pathological liar or anything -- he may have many motives for not telling the truth. But it was dishonesty nonetheless.

Also, my H did not sit idly by and let me dish it out. He fought back -- sometimes he threw things, he said hateful things right back to me, called me names, etc. The difference is once the argument was over and life went back to normal: I had mostly forgotten about it but he never felt he got satisfactory resolution. And the resentment in him began to grow and fester. As I've been reading about emotional abuse, I know that these are characteristics of abusers and the abused -- a common pattern. And that often, the abused becomes an abuser.

I didn't believe it in the beginning but I now feel that this separation was necessary -- it was the only way to facilitate true change in myself. My H shifted the paradigm and broke the dance that we've been engaged in for the last 9 years.

I am equipped with new tools -- this forum, the Harley books and others, church, a support group for separated/divorced individuals. Like Gen, I have been in and out of counseling for years -- I've recited these stories to therapists as I have done here and not one has ever pegged me as abusive. it was always a diagnosis of depression and I don't recall being given any techniques to try except for "try not to be so irritable or count to ten before you react." I've learned more from the above resources than I ever did in counseling.

I guess, Medc, that is why I feel that my H should give us another chance -- to find the happiness and loving marriage that we both dreamed about. It is possible, I know it.

But I understand that I will never know how deep his hurt is; I can only imagine and that pains me to think of what I have put him through.

You may be wondering -- if the shoe were on the other foot, would I have the same opinion? I've wondered that myself. But yes, I think I would give the person another chance -- it would be a slow process and they would have to prove themselves to me before I would move back.

I have encouraged my mother, who has been abused by my father unmercifully for 33 years, to separate from him -- to give him a wake up call. She's never done anything like that and it may be exactly what he/she needs. And if she ever does leave, I think she should give him a chance to redeem himself and then, and only then, should she file for divorce.

I don't believe that my physical appearance (getting all dressed up, etc.) will lure my H back into the marriage. I don't believe men are that shallow (some maybe, but not all, and certainly not my H.) However, looking nice and getting a new outfit and losing the weight made me feel more confident and better about myself. I've struggled with body image my whole life. So if those good feelings came out during my coffee date with my H then all the better.

I don't know if any of the above helps to clarify my thinking . . .

{....and an abused person should not be faulted for wanting to protect themselves from future abuse. }

I agree with this part totally Medc. He has the right to protect himself. And what better way to do so than asking for a divorce which would make things FINAL and he would not have to deal with MMM any longer (and she will leave him alone for sure should he ask for a divorce..no more cards or stuff).
SO why is he not asking for a divorce?? That is what i wonder.

{People are not entitled to second, third, forth chances}

Here I disagree, people make mistakes and should be given a chance to make up for them. Of course no body is forcing MMM's H to do so. He is free to divorce her, but, till then, she is free to try her second chance.

I don't agree with Medic on this one either. NOT EVERYONE that is unhappy in their marriage has an affair. Isn't leaving the spouse a better alternative in an unhappy relationship?? Isn't that what all of us BS wish would have happened instead of the affair??

Do you see a problem with this statement?

I NEVER said you were 100% responsible for your marital problems. BUT, if you guys get divorced because of the abuse (which, again is a healthy decision for him to make), the blame rests with you. It is the same as when a person cheats...both may be responsible for the state of marriage prior to the A...but the WS is SOLELY responsible for straying...and if divorce results because of it, they own it all.

I DO hope your husband decides to give you another chance. That you feel he should is not really the point though.

I want to see you both happy...you both deserve it. Only he gets to decide to enter the mine field again...you just keep reassuring him with your actions that you have indeed changed.

I work with men -- 5 of them -- closely every day. I have for the last 8 years. The guy friend went through a divorce last year and is still battling with his wife with custody. He is also helping me along my journey through the Bible.

Making sure I understand you correctly...are you saying she is ENTITLED to additional chances??? Is a WS ENTITLED to another chance...or is it a GIFT from the BS?


People DO make mistakes. However, who are we to say what the victim of that mistake should do with their life? It is their decision and not something that a former abuser should EXPECT. Hope for, wish for, desire...yes....expect...NO.

You should NOT under any circumstances be talking about your marital issues with a male co-worker. Have you not learned that lesson from Dr. H or this site as of yet???

Run it by SH...see what he says!