This asking question process is hard.

For some the need to know what went on in their home is important to purge their home of the PA. Some upon finding out that the sofa was used led to the sofa immediately being thrown out. Some had the need to gut the whole room/rooms where SF happened.

Some just could no longer live their and had to sell and move to restart recovery.

I think you will need to move and leave the offending furniture behind.

Michelle, Road;

I got here in time to have a breakfast with Sam. Nothing heavy yet, he is in class and then we can have the rest of the day together. I'm just being with him I don't have a plan as to what to say. I'm thinking we can talk about how it would be nice for him to have a mother and maybe he can give her a chance.

For myself, I'm still hurt from last night. I am keeping calm by being in Dad mode. I told W that the bed, her grandparents bed, has to go today, not stored somewhere, not to a relative. It has to be gone, so I never see it again.

I also told her I need help and I'm going to talk to her mom about this new info. She is going to tell her mom today herself.

I'm not punishing, at least I don't mean to. I don't think I can get past the fact that it was done with the twins in the room.

6years,

I don't think I've ever posted to you, but I felt compelled to share a story about my father and now my son that you may find pertinent to what you are experiencing today.

My Dad worked away from home a lot when I was growing up, but he always made it back for ball games, graduations, birthdays and other important events. We had a very good relationship, but we weren't particularly close due to the physical distance between us. During my 20's, after Dad had semi-retired and during a couple of major life screw ups / family hardships, he and I became VERY close and our relationship evolved to something closer to an equal friendship with benefits from his experience and wisdom. I really started looking at him as the MAN he was, and truly appreciated everything he had done and sacrificed for ME.

Now that I'm in my late 40's and have a 23 year old son of my own, I'm experiencing the very same evolution from the other side of the relationship. I am so proud of my son and the MAN he is becoming, but I'm even more proud of the way he now seems to look at me. We are now closer than ever, and in addition to being my son, he is quickly becoming my VERY best friend.

This whole mess that you're dealing with is AWFUL, and as a fellow BH, you have my complete RESPECT for the STRENGTH shown in the way you are handling everything, but I'm not posting to dwell on THOSE issues.

Regardless of the AWFUL circumstances that put you on that plane this morning to spend the day with your son ... cherish this day for the evolutionary turn that is about to occur in your relationship with your son. He is about to become a MAN right before your eyes and you will be PROUD, and you are about to become a HERO to your son and he will witness first hand from his FATHER what it really means to be a MAN. There will be a closeness with him that you have never experienced and your relationship will start changing in wonderful ways, and the two of you will draw strength from that relationship with each other.

Good Luck to YOU and your SON today.

You are punishing your WW.

Why does anyone have to tell the MIL where the bedroom furniture is going in the trash.

Your WW told her mom she had a PA. That was fair. To make your WW tell her mom that she banged the OM in your bed, in front of the kids in their play pen is rubbing her face in it.

If you continue to rub your WW's affair in her face it will most likely cause her to learn that she is better off to no longer tell you any more. If you need to keep asking then you better not cut off the source.

I and think almost every husband would throw the bed room furniture away. That is a normal response. What man wants to sleep or have SF where the OM rutted with their WW.

But it is not right to make your WW confess to family. A councilor is one thing. It's there job to hear such stuff. She confessed to you. That is what is important. What counts.

Call your WW and tell her so. Tell her it matters that she told you. You have calmed down and do not think it important for you to have to tell her mom.

Down the road if the MIL asks about the BR furniture change. You both can say it was victum of the PA, Or even better that you wanted new furniture for your new start.

I still think that the kind a guy you are knowing that the OM was in your house you should sell it and move to a new one.

TR is right; I hope you reread this last post a few times, so it can sink in. No matter how much she may want to repair things and be transparent for you, if you keep making her feel like a slug, she'll start closing off from you out of self-protection.

IMO, the only question you should be asking at this point is what was it about your marriage together that made her feel the need to look elsewhere? You're obviously a very strong personality; I get that. But there's something underlying in this situation that I can't put a finger on. Some sort of dynamics between the two of you that tells me your relationship may have never been equal; i.e., she should have been able to come to you all those years ago and talked honestly about how she was feeling trapped, but didn't. Why?

I think it's crucial that you find the answer to that. Because she can only suck up to you for so long; eventually you'll have to go back to some sort of normal lifestyle. If you don't discover the reason she felt she couldn't confide in you back then, then that reason is probably still there in your relationship.

What I'm trying to get at, is that you've been focusing all this effort on her and why she's a bad person, but I haven't heard much about your contribution to a relationship that got so skewed that she felt better about having an A. It's possible she's just a selfish narcissist. But it's also possible that your relationship is the culprit. Let me know if that doesn't make sense, and I'll elaborate.

I agree with TheRoad.

I think catperson is onto something too.
It appears - from the outside looking in, mind you - that both you and your wife have problems speaking honestly and openly.

You stuffed your feelings for an entire decade rather than speak honestly and openly about the affair and how it affected your feelings for your wife.

Your wife is resisting counseling because she doesn't want to talk to a stranger about this. I give her BIG points for answering all your questions honestly. That is a gift for which most betrayed spouses on this board would be extremely grateful. But she still hasn't figured out, or won't talk about, why she sought affirmation outside of the marriage rather than coming to you. She doesn't know, or won't talk about, how that type of behavior could be avoided in the future.

It's early yet, and I understand the two of you can't do everything at once. I do think communication between the two of you needs to improve. You each need to go out on the limb and offer honest communication. When you receive open and honest communication, the act of communicating should be rewarded.

Counseling can help a lot with this type of thing. It feels awkward and silly at first. Uncomfortable, artificial, and maybe even embarrassing. But it does work.

6,
I want to and my 2 cents to the way you are treating your ww when she is honest with you. Like the others, I agree that if you continually punish her for her honesty then she will eventually shut down and just not tell you anything else.

But, I want you to look at this from another angle. What do you want 6 years from now? Do you really want a recovered relationship. If you do, you can’t destroy your wife in the process. Your goal should be to do things that will bring healing to you, her, and the relationship. I had to eventually come to the place where I understood that if I continued to punish her for what she did that what I would end up doing is destroying her and ultimately destroying any chance we had for a relationship that was better than it was pre-affair. Also, I ran the risk of destroying her to the point where it would have a negative impact on my children who are similar in age to yours(20,17,13).

When she reveals affair facts to you, please take enough time to consider your response and its’ effects on any potential recovery and its’ effects not only on your marriage but on your children. If your intent is to make her pay for what she did, believe me that a truly repentant WS beats themselves up much more than you ever could. One of my biggest worries still is that my wife will allow the guilt she feels to destroy her. That would not only hurt her, but it would do unimaginable harm to my children. If you get to a point where you know that you will never be able to get over this, then end the marriage and walk away, you certainly have that right.

Regardless of what happens to your marriage, be a hero for your kids. The best thing you could ever give them is a Mother and a Father who love them and are fully involved in their lives. Going to meet your son is a great first step. If you can’t get past this, you can always get a divorce and find another wife. But, she is the only Mother they will ever have.

One last thing, don’t be afraid to be completely transparent and honest with your son. He’s lived with enough lies over the past 10 years and at 20 I can tell you from experience that he is probably perceptive enough to see through you if you’re not completely honest with him.

6years,

Well I had all sorts of good things to say to you, but the folks here have said them and more, and they said them better.

Listen to Cat, TR, RB about your W and punishing her. YOur kids need a healthy mother in their lives. She has not been healthy for a long time but she is being honest NOW. She is facing the music NOW. She is trying NOW. And she should be acknowledged for that.

I will tell you that for my money MyRev is dead on right about Dad's and sons and how things change. LIsten to the man carefully he has a lot of wisdom to give you.

I would like to take MyRev's message and use it to illustrate something else that I think and hope you will have an opportunity to see.

The people I admire the most are the ones that are people. They make mistakes, the learn from them, they grow, and they keep trying to be better. I admire them BECAUSE of their mistakes and how they addressed them instead of INSPITE of them.

Your W has made many mistakes. In the last few months I think she has gone through a catharsis (sp?). Her Mother's admonishments would not have meant anything if your W was not ready to address and try to make amends for what she has done. In my opinion what you are seeing is her emerging from over 10 years of hail. She is now being honest, she is facing her worst behavior, she is trying to be what she knows she was not.

I am not telling you to give her a "second" chance. I am telling you to give her a chance to be what she has not been. It may happen, it may not. But, if she can be this person even if you decide to divorce her, your children will be better off for it. You will be better off for it. She will be better off for it.

You son is deeply hurt, but he needs to see that all people make mistakes and it is what they do with those mistakes that really defines them. I think MyRev was touching on that in his post.

Your W is trying, she is not hiding, and believe me as tough as you have it, imagine being in her shoes and having your kids "hate" you, not respect you, and what nothing to do with you. Can you imagine a loss like that? I have a hard time with that thought. I am sure she is too.

You don't have to "feel sorry" for her, but you need to acknowledge she has a steep hill to climb as do you.

So talk with your son, comfort him, guide him, show him what you fear, hope, and respect. Talk with your MIL and have her NOT give your W too bad a time. Talk with your W and acknowledge her honesty for it is the path by which both of you will reach your goals with the least amount of pain.

But above all reread those recent posts to you by all of the people that care, and really reread MyRev's post. In it is the seeds of how to deal with your son.

God Bless,

JL

For What Its Worth
I bought a new bed, even though I do not think OW was ever in my house. a new bed does help with healing process.

Hang in there my friend. I will be praying for you. I have a 20 year old son at college as well, and on the few occasions that I have seen him cry, it breaks my heart like nothing else can!!

JL, Rev, everyone

W was reading here and called to ask if it was really necessary to tell MIL. I said only if she need someone other than me and a counselor to talk to, but the bed has to go I'm not sleeping in it again.

Sam is very angry. He says the OM was not around a few times but actually quite a bit and that W and OM just ignored the kids when he was there. He said OM would usually show just a few minutes after I would leave for work or school. I asked him to think if he would like to have a real mother, but he doesn't know yet. He also told me that he did a long IM with our oldest daughter to bring her up to speed. I asked him if he could find it in him to protect the others from this for now, he said he will from now on. I would guess that W is going to hear it from our daughter.

W still doesn't know the why's of the A or won't tell me. I think she doesn't know.

I'm struggling with the not punishing thing. I'm really trying, to be honest I don't want this marriage right now but I made a deal. I am sure many people do get past that feeling. How am I supposed to react when I get these bombs? Sometimes it feels like I'm the one facing the music. The kids were already distant, I was on my way out and now we are all going through this pain to give her another chance. I'm losing sight of why I am doing this. I can't get the image of the twins in the playpen watching them doing it. Maybe the meds will help.

Guys,

I'm getting all confused about something. Am I supposed to not care what happened and only focus on the why? Or maybe not even that and just try to make the marriage good right now. I don't know how to set a goal right now, it's all too new and too terrible. How do I know I'm not going to get more terrible surprises?

I got to go have dinner with Sam and then head back home. He knows if he needs me I'll fly up on a minutes notice. He is being tough right now so he wants me to go home.

6 yrs

Have been reading your saga - great advice from the vets during this tribulation of truth. Wanted to bring an opinion even though I admit I am just learning this stuff for a few years now.

Your son's anger is very normal because of his helplessness of the situation. He wanted to do something but he was young. His anger may be from some internal guilt. A terrible place to be in I can imagine.

In my situation, one son was in college and another in high school. They confronted the OM on their own and this was unknown to me at the time. Even to this day they admit it very little. The affair died quickly after the confrontation and my wife was in WD for a month and there was a year long funk afterwards.

Like your situation - wife has changed for the better since that time - but there is still a gorilla in the room. I have also stuffed it for a couple of years but no where near a decade.

My hope is that your family heals and finds a way to move on. Do not let this POS OM take any more of your and your family's life than he already has taken.

6:

About this:

The "what happened" is what you need right now. Whether it is that she was with the OM while the twins were sleeping next to the bed, or whatever the next horrible truth might be. You NEED THIS to continue. Because you can think that you have heard everything and understand everything, and then BOOM!, here comes something else.

You might think that you have learned SO MUCH, what is there still to learn? As this latest info proves, there is SO MUCH more. Your DS20 is filling you in with info, and WW is telling you details. You just have to go through this to get to WHAT YOU NEED. You will KNOW when you have everything that you need. You will KNOW when you have the truth. And then your recovery will really start.

The "Why?" As I said before, you will NEVER get a good answer as to the "WHY?" You can only get someone who doesn't allow themselves to slip down that slope to the "why?" And until that person has learned about themselves and realizes WHY they did it themselves, with thier FULL Responsibility for thier actions, will you get anywhere remotely close to a possible "why?" from them.

So, don't pursue the "why?" right now, your WW ins't truly capable of answering that question now. Sometime in the future, yes. But not NOW.

I'll answer this one next, as it sort of follows up with what I said above:


YOU DON'T KNOW. And you won't. But you have to ask, and you have to accept her when she tells you the truth. And your actions with the truth have to be measured as well. She hasn't talked for ten years, she can certainly stay quiet for 6 more years, and then she is off the hook. You do not KNOW what a gift you have in a W that is willing to give you the truth, even NOW, ten years later. Many BS's around here, NEVER get the info that they need, even after they have been long in recovery. They stuff thier need for this, and move forward. That can be a future hindrance to a proper recovery, but it may not be the "end all" for these folks. It may be for you, but only YOU can make that decision.


And then this:


Yes, you know HOW to set goals, you just do not know how to set goals in THIS situation. Your riding the rollercoaster in the dark. You don't know when the cosater is going to dip, turn or rocket upwards, and since its dark, you can't look ahead.

There are a number of timelines around here, and you can use them as a guide, starting with Dday of about 2 weeks ago. Others around here can descibe better what these timeframes are because they went through it. But your first goal may be to get a complete timeline from your WW of what happened, when it happened, how often, where, including dates and places visted, etc.

But your doing well. You might not think so, but you are. By hook or crook, you WILL put this family back together.

LG

6, I didn't mean for you not to care what happened. That's impossible, and you have a lot of grieving to go through, and it's going to take a really long time to feel better.

What I meant about why was that I think it might help you to divert some of your energy from the A into thinking about what your relationship was - and is - like. Not so that you and your W can get back together, but so that you can learn more about yourself. Even if you end up moving on after the kids are gone, if you take this opportunity to learn some stuff, you'll be in a better place 6 years from now. And in the meantime, if you can dive into some therapy, or some psychology books, or join a men's group at church, whatever floats your boat, it will give you something else to dwell on besides the pain and maybe benefit you in the long run.

Your wife needs to hear, from Sam, how her actions have affected him, and for how long. Sam needs to see and hear her heartfelt remorse. They need to be communicating - but they need to feel safe doing so, and they need to be able to control themselves. I'm thinking a counselor could *really* help you guys in this respect.

I understand why you asked Sam to protect the others for now, but I hope he's clear that he's not covering up for his Mom, or hiding the truth. This "protection" needs to be for a very short time, just until your wife can speak to the others directly.

It might actually be better if the kids *did* talk amongst themselves. They need the support, and they need to know that it's better to talk about/through things than to stuff everything down.

I bet it meant the world to your son that you flew up to see him.

All BSs care about what happened. As LG said it's usually what we need first. Personally I needed the timeline. That's the kind of person I am. I needed to know all the details so I could understand what the reality of my life really was. Once I got the info I processed it for months. Then I put it down. And this far out, over three years, I realize that the details didn't really matter. It was an A, end of story. That's what time does for you.

The WHYS will help you to understand your contribution to your M prior to her A. The WHYS will help her to undertstand what NOT to allow in her life again. It helps you both to A proof your M. That's why it's important to get. But, if a clear WHY is not possible, then you still can A proof your M. Boundaries need to be established. Situations need to be avoided. Weaknesses need to be protected. If you both can understand how you got HERE, you can prevent the situation from ever happening again.

Get what you need now. Getting details later can cause a second Dday (that's how it feels).

Then take your time processing while trying to meet eachothers needs and avoiding LBs.

Guide the children. Help them.

Communicate...all of you. And then communicate some more. Radical honesty and transparency.

Finally, try to allow for some normal, peaceful life events to go on, life events unrelated to the A. Make a point of it. It'll help your W , yourself and your children to see that it IS possible.

Time heals. Don't rush it.

I feel the need to share with you:

You will get through this.

Your life will get better again.

You will be happy again.


all of these things will happen, whether you stay married, or decide to D. the crushing pain does not last forever.

and you will never go back to the life you had: keeping the peace, stuffing your feelings, ignoreing the problems.

you will never settle for just so-so in your relationships. You will want so much more. and that is not a bad thing at all.

I would not ask to go through all of this stuff over again. But, since I have gone through it, and grown so much, my life is far better than it ever was before. Not just in my married relationship, but in every thing I do, every person I relate to. My kids, family, old friends, new friends. Walking through this particular fiery furnace burned away all the garbage I was hanging onto, and gave me an amazing capacity to love other people.

the day will come, when you will say the same thing.

6ly

"I'm getting all confused about something. Am I supposed to not care what happened and only focus on the why? Or maybe not even that and just try to make the marriage good right now. I don't know how to set a goal right now, it's all too new and too terrible. How do I know I'm not going to get more terrible surprises?"

Only each individual BH can determine how much about what happened in the affair.

If you want to know everything that ask. You can never un ask once your WW has told you though.

Best way to get the whole story is to ask your WW to write a detailed timeline. Then take Tuesday and Thursday evenings to discuss the affair. You can not grill her everyday. She or you will not be able to heal. Best to use the other five days both of your healing.

You found out the bed room set has cooties. That was talking.
Healing you make it a fun experience for the both of you to go out and buy a new bedroom set.

One day at a time.

Go for what happened. Your WW is willing. You will get satisfaction from learning what you want to know. Not having to wonder what went down will allow you to put this to rest.

However, the "why", will never be worth the effort. Wayward fog along with compartmentalization within her mind to achieve justification to step out.

I agree with this. Even now, almost 5 years later, I still don't get a good enough reason "why". I've heard:

1. because I was selfish
2. because I didn't care about anybody or anything
3. because I gave up
4. because because because

Guess what? To a BS-- NO reason given will answer that question satisfactorily.

Do the WS get the pain at all. W called me, did not even ask how it went with Sam. Instead, she asked if I could carry the bed down to the storage room. I very calmly said that we are going to get rid of it. Then she said we have so many happy memories in that bed, I'm sure you will want it back after you get over this. I just said I'm going to burn the d@mn thing when I get home. How can you possibly think I'm going to have happy memories of that bed? She said the A happened a long time ago, we have had good times in the bed since then and I thought we could again when you get over this. I said I didn't know you had sex with T in our bed until yesterday. I'm barely able to deal with it, I just found out about this and you are already ignoring my feelings. She apologized and said I could burn it when I get home.

How could she possibly not understand that pain I am going to have when I see that bed? It even hurts to know that I slept with her in the bed after she slept with him there. Is this behavior typical or is she actually mentally ill or something?