"if i was such a danger to him on the day of his departure," Why did he come home then?

OK, it appears to me that you still have so little insight into the effects you have on him that you have to wonder about if you were a danger to him.

I think you were not a danger in that you would MURDER him that day, no. You murdered him 10,000 other times each day every day for maybe 10 years!!!!!

You killed him emotionally each day he was with you. I wonder why he even talks to you at all.

Kill, kill, kill, kill, and then kill him some more. You are still angry at him for leaving you!!!! WHY!!????

Because you still dont see the harm you did nor do you admit to abusive behavior.

But i have seen types like you and you are KILLERS of emotional health in other people. You are like poison.

Perhaps he does not want to face you in court therefore has not served you with papers yet. Or, there is no need to since he has no ill will toward you he just does not want to be abused anymore. When he wants to date another person he might decide to divorce you, or when he gets around to it.

Get a clue as to what you did to him before it is too late! Please!

Okay Folks -- you win. . .I'm a hopeless wreck of a person! I'm an evil wench who doesn't deserve happiness or a husband or children. I'm poison and toxic and dreadful to be around. It's all my fault -- I deserve all the bad things that have, can or will happen to me. That's the bottom line message, right?

Please don't even answer that question -- I'm obviously not worth your time.

:crosseyedcrazy:

wow...you really haven't read anything have you?

You dont have to continue to be a toxic person. You can CHANGE. And then you will be able to have a good marriage with a husband and even have children.

Please CHANGE inside your heart. It is the only way to have it be permanent. You have to break a lifetime of bad habits. We all have them. It takes everything we have in us to do this.

We are beating you over the head in order that you see yourself clearly enough to CHANGE so you can demonstrate the changes to your husband and possibly he will come home.

:twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour:

MMM and all. Well I have been following the thread because my behavior and MMM’s are very similar therefore all you folks out there beating MMM over the head are getting two for one as you are also beating me over the head and I thank you for this. These last posts have been an eye opener to me. MMM, our Hs want to avoid conflict with us because we are abusive. That is why their behavior can’t be explained rationally. It is totally irrational and it is driven by fear. Yes, we are abusive and manipulative. And yes we might even suggest to them to do XYZ and then when they do XYZ we criticize them for it because they did not do it exactly the way we wanted them to. We are doing it now trying to manipulate them back into the M and expecting from them another chance. Yes we do expect it and yes we are manipulating them. There is no doubt about that. We have not changed. Reading a lot and doing this forum helps and we are in the PROCESS of changing. Till then it is safe to say the least possible and to keep our expectations to ourselves. Do the least possible damage, basically.
My H was able to have SF with me and still fear me. At the end he could no longer have an erection, I even gave him a hard time about this. This is how much I messed him up. But maybe facing me and telling me that SF with me was a duty and not pleasant would have provoked such a bad and abusive reaction from me that he just could not face it. So he quietly suffered. We also have a son, and he did it for him too. He is not a selfish person. We are selfish MMM and we have not changed yet. It is still all about us and not respecting our Hs boundaries. My H wants no physical attention and I hug him, kiss him etc. I do that every day and I have to stop that.. it is abuse. If I can practice anything from today on is validating his words and thoughts instead of manipulating them. Saying: “yes I understand you point and you might be right.” Accepting him for who he is not for what I want him to be. Truly loving him instead of loving an image of him I created in my mind: an obedient H that makes my wishes his command. Yes, MMM this might be a strong statement but when we are expecting our Hs to give us another chance, to have children with us and to tell us how they feel (knowing that if they do we will DJ them and try to manipulate them not to feel that way) we are asking for the moon. Imagine one year ago: your H tells you: MMM, I really do not want kids with you because you are abusive to me, I am unhappy with you and will never want kids with you. Truly…what would you have said? “OK dear, I totally understand your point of view and respect that. I do not feel the same way, and maybe we should discuss this with a marriage counselor and see what we can do” or would you have said something totally different and/or lose it completely? No one in their right mind would risk to be their true self with us. They do not want to feel the pain of DJ all the time. No one can withstand it. So what do they do?: they lie and quietly suffer. Yes, they can’t handle conflict. Could we if we were in their shoes? They pretend to be the people we want them to be for as long as they can, because deep inside they do believe we can change, we are good, we can’t possibly be that way all the time and they loved us. But we never changed. And they can only run away. And the way they run away is not a healthy way and that too must make them feel like s**t since they would prefer to handle it differently, and they would if they could, I am sure.
I can’t speak for you MMM and maybe I did so I apologize for it, but as far as it goes for me, all I said above applies and I do need to do some serious work here if I want my M to be saved. It is going to take lots of time and I have to factor in that, at the end, my H might decide not to give me another chance but move on.

Actually, unless you are saying it's irrational, since you are describing it, and understand it, the behavior is EXTREMELY RATIONAL, and you are just engaging in more DJ's to call your or MMM's husband's behavior irrational. It's different from what you expect, but given the circumstances, it's far from irrational.

See above, the behavior is totally irrational.
Spot on!
Like I said, it's often not safe emotionally, and possibly physically to be honest.

So perhaps they are rational, as opposed to what you said above.


I think you have nailed the essense of what has been said here. You hit the ball out of the park!

Thank you Enlightned. I guess fear drives you to do irrational things, that is my gist. However my H is a pretty logical and rational man and i am sure his behavior is the best he can come up with to protect himself. Thank you for putting all this energy and time. it was very helpful to me.

wow, awesome post, MzG, you have it nailed!

Bravo! YOU will get past all of this. Great job being willing to really look at yourself.

Gen -- I hope your H will see how you are changing and that you two will be able to be happy together in your marriage.

Best wishes,
MMM

Did you get her message to you MMM? She could have had that epiphany and kept it to herself. Instead, she offered you a gift....as all posters here do...and you have seemingly ignored. it.

Again, what he is doing is NOT irrational. Irrational would be to do the same things, expecting different results.

What has happened is VERY RATIONAL.

If you keep calling it irrational, then it's just more of the DJ that brought you and MMM to where you are today.

So eliminate any thinking that judges the behavior to be irrational. It is RATIONAL, period.

I understand Gen's post and have not ignored it. Gen has hope for her M and is trying to change in her heart -- her H is still living at home where she can demonstrate her changes. I truly hope she is successful because I believe her H still loves her otherwise he would be long gone. He's given her a year to shape up before he ships out.

I am not that fortunate. . .my H is gone. . .past the point of no return. The opposite of love is indifference and as Stellakat said -- my H doesn't wish me any ill will but he doesn't care enough to even file for divorce. That equals indifference.

There is no hope for my marriage. I just have to get up the nerve to file the divorce papers. We should be divorced within 90 days. There won't be a court battle and my H and I never have to see each other again or even talk on the phone. It can all be done via email or postal mail. It's that simple to break a marriage.

Did you get her message about YOUR behavior....and that is totally independent of your husband.

I guess what i am trying to do when i call it irrational is to put the blame on my H. I really have to work on focusing on my behavior and improve it. not his. if i keep looking at all his reactions to my way of relating to him I am missing the point as i will be trying to change him instead of focusing on my much needed changes.

MMM, it is not about getting back our Hs, i think. It is about getting back ourselves. >Hs will run away from us, we can't. we will have to deal with the way we are for the rest of our lives if all we do is expect X outcome just becouse we think we have changed. we have to change. that takes time, lots of time and Hs might not want to wait or, like in my case, H does not believe in my change. i changed once after his A 4 years ago and reverted back. He told me clearly after his session with Steve: i believe you can change but only in the face of a crisis.once the crisis is gone you will go back to your regular patters. he also added: it is only human (i guess to make me feel better). he has very little intention to get back with me if any. we have financial constraints and one son to get thru his last year of HS and then college. otherwise he will be gone just like your H.

[I am not that fortunate. . .my H is gone. . .past the point of no return. The opposite of love is indifference and as Stellakat said -- my H doesn't wish me any ill will but he doesn't care enough to even file for divorce. That equals indifference. ]

Hs are not the point here. Even if we are on MB forum and that seems a contraddiction to say. if the only thing we focus on is to get them to come back to the M we have not changed. we have to focus on changing ourselves then as a consequence they might get back to the M or they might choose not to. up to them. This is the way I understand it ( I am a dietian so bear with me) when i tell someone you must lose 50lb otherwise you will die, they will go on the crash diet, lose 50 and get it all back in no time. if i tell them: listen the relationship you have with food, excercise and your lifestyle in general are driving you to the coffin. i will not see you for another session unless we work on you making some changes on these 3 areas, changes that you will carry on for the rest of your life. if you can't commit to any change and just want the last crash diet you should know that you will regain all the weight plus interests. At that point is better you accept yourself as you are and resign to the fact that you will be unhealthy for the rest of your life. it is harsh but true. and it is the same for us even if it might be a little simplistic relating it to dieting. we can manipulate our H to think we have changed (crash diet) because our final goal is to have them back as we feel hopeless without them (death if you do not lose weight), however, we know that we will abuse them again (you did admit MMM that this separation was necessary as yyou would have not changed otherwise) so changing the way we are, all our bad habits and abusiveness is the only solution and avoiding death and doing it the crash diet style should not be part of our focus.

[There is no hope for my marriage. I just have to get up the nerve to file the divorce papers. We should be divorced within 90 days. There won't be a court battle and my H and I never have to see each other again or even talk on the phone. It can all be done via email or postal mail. It's that simple to break a marriage. ]
Right now, if i were you i would take the focus away from the marriage. I am going to do that myself. i am going to be a better person and respect my H and if i do that i know he will be happy. of course i want to save the marriage, i am not giving up on that, but i also want to honor my H decision to leave it and not pressure him to stay. he is free to chose and free to accept my changes, believe in me or decide not to take another risk.
MMM, maybe that is what you need to tell your H. "i do not want to pressure you into the M and I understand and respect the fact you decided to leave. I would like to be your friend as some point in the future as i am working on making changes about myself. I still love you very much, make no mistake here, but I will not contact you any longer, unless you ask me to do so from time to time, and I would love to hear from you if you ever feel the need or desire to contact me.

Hi all -- I have so much competing information swirling in my head, for example:

--keep in contact with H vs. leave him alone and respect his boundaries
--try to change yourself for the next relationship vs. do the world a favor and stay single
--try to save your marriage vs. good luck on your divorce
--its not about you focus on him vs. its not about him focus on yourself

Everyone keeps telling me to change from within and hope my H sees it. I understand that a change from within is necessary on my part, just like Gen described – not the temporary crisis management kind of change. But if he's not at home and I don't interact with him, then how can I demonstrate anything? If I'm not in a relationship, then how can I practice the MB concepts? I can study and learn and evaluate past behavior to know what to do in the future but the true test comes when confronted with similar situations.

I could practice in my interactions with other family members but everyone knows it’s not the same as living and interacting with your spouse -- that is a special intimate relationship that none can compare to – it brings out the best in you and unfortunately, sometimes the worst.

My goal is to recover my marriage by eliminating LBs and meeting ENs . . . if my H will give me a chance. I want him to be happy and I want to be happy too. By the same token, if we aren't married, I can't be in his life as his friend either. I just don't think that would be healthy for either of us.

I know you are all trying to help--it’s just really difficult to know which way to turn and feeling like everything I think, say, do or feel is wrong. I am a nervous wreck -- I barely slept and woke up shaking this morning.

P.S. My H sent me an email this morning to thank me for his birthday card. I thought that was very nice of him to send me a thank you -- he didn't have to do that. He also asked me how everything is going which also surprised me. He is 37 today. I am glad I decided to send the card.

MMM, i understand how you feel and yes the main idea is you changing. however, you also consulted with Steve Harley and at this point i would go with his advice which if i remember correctly was to give your H the LB questionaire. see how it goes with that, since your H contacted you to thank you you can ask him to meet you and give him the questionaire. again is about you changing and if he chooses he can give you a hand with the questionnaire. are you going to talk to Steve again soon<?

MMM, I thought up this wild crazy idea for you. It may be crazy and it may be brilliant. See what you think.

I am suggesting that you call your husband up and talk to him about how you want to change badly but it is hard since he is not there....

Tell him you care for him and that you are willing to go thru the fire to change yourself and be a healthy, happy marriage partner again that he wants. You also want to eliminate permanently, any bad words you say to him or bad attitudes of disrespect toward him.

Remind him that you are now aware of a few instances of disrespect that you laid on him and that you are not going to ever repeat. Tell him you see what those things did to him and you never want to do it again. You need his help. For a week.

Here is the plan: Ask him to move back in FOR A WEEK. ONLY A WEEK. Have a camcorder ready on a tripod. Tell him the rules.

Here are the rules:

1.During that time, you are to NEVER ONCE LB On him. In any way.

2.If he feels you are LB'ing or if he feels uncomfortable he is to immediately tell you. Any sign of disrespect that you show him and he feels uncomfortable about he is to tell you.

3. If you LB, or he even thinks you LB'D, then you are to give him 50.00. You are not to argue with him, just give him the money. This covers ONE LB (truly this is part of how I cured my LB'ING to my husband) In addition to the money, you are to write out in detail, the specific LB in a notebook, Every LB must be written about and dated. If he LB's you can write it down for yourself but not charge him. This WEEK is about YOUR LB's. To eradicate YOUR LB's. First.

4. If you LB again, you are to give him another $50.00, and go write it down, etc.......

5. Here is the second part. You are to use a videocamera on a tripod and tape all your interactions as best as you can to get footage to study later and also if there is a possible LB you two want to study it with a counselor.

6. You can go deep this way and learn a lot. With the videotaping. It will be a little like a "REALITY SHOW" but the purpose is to help you two save your marriage.

7. Keep a counselor handy so when things come up or in the tape, you may want to show the counselor. A tape really helps a counselor see the dynamics of your relationship. It is undeniable and true. Then the counselor can truly help you or both of you.

I think this would really show you and show your husband how your interactions go. Also, it is nearly the only way to show him you are truly serious about becoming a better person and it is the only way to dig in and eradicate every and all your LB's.

I did this. When I ended up paying my husband $150.00 0ne night for three LB's, writing them down also, I really calmed down and stopped doing LB's. Each LB hurt him more than the $50.00 worth of "pain money" that I paid him. I should have paid him $5000.00 for every LB, that is how much they hurt him if not even more.

I had to get rid of my LB'S to save our marriage. ALL of them. It was me who was LB'ing not my husband. I had to do it. And now our marriage is better! So much better! And I do not LB on him now! And I am happier! He is happier! We love each other and can be open with each other. I had to change and he helped me change, in time, and quit LB'ing.

You can do this too but you have to do these serious drastic measures. It will help if you can get your husband to come do the experiment with you for a week. I know you can do this, you can ask me anything about how it went for me and I will share with you.

Yes, Steve's advice was to fill out the husband's questionnaire (as if I am my H) which is basically me evaluating myself from my H's perspective. Then Steve said to give the questionnaire to my H and see if he will be willing to give me feedback on how accurate I was.

I was supposed to do this on our 9/19/08 coffee date but chickened out. I have a rough draft of it and want to write so it is more legible and revisit my responses to see if I have anything to add.

On another note, Gen, I was checking out a website a friend suggested to me (http://www.crosswalk.com/marriage/11582023/) and I found this letter to a Control Freak. I wish my H would have written something like this and given it to me. I don't know how I would have responded -- probably would have flipped out -- but who knows. Anyway, I think it captures nearly perfectly how my H felt about our marriage and me. Thought you might like to see it.

Dear Control Freak:

I suspect that your first reaction to this letter is that it cannot possibly apply to you. That would be typical because every time I try to get you to see your part in things, you turn them back on me. It’s always my fault. You find a way to twist the truth, rationalize, justify and make excuses for your actions. It drives me crazy.

I’m sure you don’t want to admit that what you’re doing is creating chaos in a relationship. No one wants to feel wrong or bad. This letter isn’t about being “wrong” or “bad.” We all have sin and problems in our lives. We all fall short of perfection. But, knowing our weaknesses is an act of humility, and it’s time for you to dig deep and find some humility within yourself.

I want you to know what it’s like living with you. You always have to be “right,” and in the process I have to be “wrong.” I’ve gotten hooked so many times by you, trying to get you to see things from my perspective. I’m not going to do that anymore, but want you to know that I’ve lost myself in the process of relating to you.

I also want you to know that I share fewer and fewer things with you. I don’t sense you really care how I feel, or even how I’m doing. You want things to be your way, so I’ve learned to mostly keep my mouth shut. Every time I do, however, a little more of my love for you dies.

I’m finally learning that arguing with you is pointless. You’re a great debater. You have a reason for everything, an answer for everything, and a black and white picture for every situation. If what I say doesn’t fit into your black and white world, I’m out of luck.

I want you to know that I feel belittled by you. I feel humiliated by you. I feel suffocated by you. I feel exhausted by you.

What I now wish is that you would take a step back and see if any part of this letter is true. Even if you can’t swallow everything, we could start again if you would have an open heart about some of it. Even if you didn’t admit to everything, I’d feel happy if you’d admit to some of it and make a vow to change.

So, please consider the truth of this letter. Please reflect on these truths so that we can have a relationship. If things don’t change, if you don’t open your heart to see where you’ve hurt me deeply, we may not have a relationship in the future.

Wow, stellakat -- thank you so much for sharing this approach! I don't think now is the time to spring this on my H; however, if our interactions increase and the time is right, I would be willing to propose this to him. I think right now he would not be open to this.

Were you and your H separated when you did this?