cat, congrats on power!!!

At first I thought you meant, as an encouragement to ears: we have the power to make decisions for our lives. Then I understood you meant, electricity!!! lol I'm so happy for you! That took a looooong time.

ears: yes your comment has me wondering also. How goes things? I trust that you have given this all careful consideration, and I know you've been thinking about this a long time. So my *feelings* that this is scary and moving too fast are just me, not necessarily based on what is going on with you. I'm concerned because I care. I'm not trying to second guess you; just know that I'm concerned, ok?

It's going well, I think, and I'm feeling more confident that we'll be okay whatever happens. I'm recognizing that I'm not doing so well in keeping an open mind. That I've been choosing to limit my options. I don't want to close my heart to H. Just that I'm afriad not to, because it's so cyclical. I fear that I will trust again, when underneath, it's not safe to. Thinking about what you said about power, with power comes responsibility to make responsible choices. Not to leave the kids in an abusive environment.

It's been hard to get more than two minutes on the computer, so it was easier to post on your thread, jayne, than on mine. Not wanting to shock anyone, I left another message for the MC, that I wanted to discuss separation, and I told H that I wanted to discuss something serious with him, but not anything we hadn't discussed before.

The MC hadn't got my message, so I explained. That I want to separate when we finish the MC sessions in two months. That I have been working to keep an open mind, but H is so hostile that I feel shut down and afraid and unwilling to share what is on my mind and my heart. That I am very angry at H for treating me in a hostile way. Yelling at me, making fun of me, threatening to leave again. That I believe that a one year separation would give me the detachment that I need to see the situation more clearly.

H said that he understands my decision. That he asks me to wait a month before making a final decision on this. I said, I will continue to stay together in the house, but I cannot tolerate any more hostility. That I will request that he go to a hotel for the night if he does. He did not agree to this, pointed the finger at me, at my old AOs, that I've already apologized for in the past. His opinion to own. I'm not sticking around for any more of this. I have made myself plain many times. If he starts in on me, I will ask him to leave, and if he doesn't then I will, with the kids. I realize today that I shouldn't have waited until this point to start leaving for more than a few hours.

The counselor also asked me to keep an open mind for the rest of the sessions. She asked if I had known that I wanted to separate before we started going. I have been thinking that it's getting more and more hopeless, but I have worked to choose hope and keeping an open mind, anyway. That I know that these plans do help people who do the work. But H has not been doing all the homework at all. For example, every day, we are supposed to do two nice things for the other person, and to say one thing that we appreciate, and one thing that we apologize for. I have done this faithfully, and H does maybe one or two days a week. She asked if this makes me angry. No, I am not angry about this, my choices I make for what is important to me, and H makes choices based on what is important to him. Not a reflection on me. But I can't expect a program to work if we are not doing the work. And as to be expected, I feel less connecetd to him, not more.

H said after the meeting that he does not think that I will follow through. His opinion to own. I still think that even if he starts doing the homework today, that two months from now will be too little time to make a safe environment. He's leaving to go out of town tonight, so I'll have more time to write during the week.

Wow, I'm so amazed at how well you've handled that. It was so...adult. It's what I dream of in my own situation. My fear that it WON'T happen that way is what keeps me here. You give me courage.

I have to tell you, and sorry to TJ, but it's kinda pertinent. D18 has a new boyfriend, and H is NOT taking this well. He drives, he's 18 in 2 weeks, he doesn't like how he dresses, yada yada. Well, H determined that bf's car is a hotrod and he won't allow D18 to go anywhere in it; the kid has to borrow his dad's car to take her anywhere.

Anyway, she and I have been going to IC to talk about how to deal with H. So H brought up the car yesterday, D18 tried to talk to him about it, I backed her up that 99% of everyone else has normal cars (we have BMWs, supposedly because they're safer, but really because it makes him feel good). So he gets pissy and says 'fine! Y'all do whatever you want!' Fighting ensued, tears as he ordered a new pair of glasses and he gets upset that she's crying, and at the end, I told her that I was going to get him to go to counseling with us so we can have the IC bring up our issues with him. He won't do it for me, but he'll do it for her. His negativity is really getting to her and now with the bf, it's all coming to a head.

Point is, we all have our breaking points. I've been so scared at pointing out to him the issues we have with him, but it's me seeing how much it's hurting D18 that's forcing me to face my fears. I'm glad you've reached yours. Sorry that it's come to this for you, but I am looking forward to the time when you can be yourself - all the time.

Cat, thanks fpr sharing about your D18. The image that comes to mind is about the oxygen masks. That when we don't put our own on first, that we're no use to those we want to and are responsible to help.

I am looking forward to the time when you can be yourself - all the time.

Cat, I want to thank you for being honest with me, instead of not sharing what's out of whack that you see. I do work to be myself all the time. But then I still have made compromises that I am in no way happy about. My choices, and I face the consequences of those decisions.

H has been nice since yesterday, and now he's gone. He had a talk with DD12 today, about not making fun of me anymore. She started in the car, and HE reminded her to stop. How did I not see how bad this got?!

jayne, thanks for the reminder to see a lawyer before discussing this stuff with H. I hadn't thought ahead that far, but it makes sense.

Going through old pages in my thread, trying to find a time when I was more peaceful than today. Looking for that EO, what did she look like, sound like?

I didn't find her yet, so I'm still reading. I see some behavior that I don't want to choose anymore. I am thinking, why does this woman do this to herself? Agonize over her H's every reaction, the what ifs, and how about this? This approval seeking.

I read (somewhere else, a long time ago, no idea where..) that the key to not being stressed out is to LOWER your tolerance to stress, so that you realize you are stressed sooner and take action to fix it BEFORE you get to that point of being so frazzled you can't even deal anymore.

I can do this, today. Be kind and gentle with myself. This is a quote from happy to be here.

I went to the IC yesterday, gave him the update. He pointed out that the two month timeline H and I discussed would put us right in the middle of Thanksgiving and Christmas, and suggested that we plan this for after the new year, to make the holidays easier for the kids. That makes sense to me, and I'll discuss it with H, too.

He was encouraged to hear that H was not angry about this, and said that he sees that a lot, where folks can keep it amicable, and that's the easiest separation for the kids to handle. He said the kids will see this, that we are calm, and it will give them the cue that they will be okay, too.

I helped my sister move to my friend's house yesterday, and she asked why I never spend time with them anymore. I had been thinking about that, too. I was angry and hurt at the time, when they had that fall out. And I think that it was okay to take some time to regroup. And I am trying to balance POJA with H, too. He said in MC, when he was mad about something else, that he would like me to not see her at all. But I don't know that he still feels that way today. We are new every day. And I would like to see my mom. I believe that we can talk about this O&H. Maybe there are some concerns that he has that I haven't addressed, that I can address in some way other than to just not see her at all.

As someone who gave up a family member because of such issues, I can tell you it's not a good way to be. I would say that, considering all you've done to try to make your marriage work, seeing your family should be the least of your H's issues. In fact, it is none of his damm business!

I was finishing up taxes this week (yes, still), and ran across a letter my dad wrote to me after I broke things off with him over his evil wife. Even in that letter, the selfish b*stard blamed everything on me and my H. I hate him for being so selfish, but at the same time, I regret pulling D18 away from him.

I hadn't thought about the timing and the holidays. I agree, waiting until after the holidays is a good idea.

How is he doing with the AOs? Still none? Is he still sticking up for you the way he did the other day when your DD wasn't being respectful?

With the separation, you'll be able to reconnect with your sister and mom even if he still holds a grudge against them, right?

As someone who gave up a family member because of such issues, I can tell you it's not a good way to be.

Cat, I think the two are related for me. The isolating from my FOO and isolating from my H. I think reconnecting respectfully with them will strongly reinforce for me that I don't need to isolate to be safe. That I am safe. That I can defend myself in the present, and don't need to rely what the people around me decide to do or not do.

People are not replaceable. I have some incredible friends that take on a lot of what I would want from my mom when I am ready to open up to her. Like how DD7 is visiting with her godmother and godsister today on their day off. My neighbor called last night to invite my kids over there, too. I would love for my parents to also get to know my kids, and for the kids to get to know their grandparents better. My grandma and grandopa were so big in our lives when we were kids. In the present, I can create connections like this for our kids, too, with amazing, true-blue folks.


I would say that, considering all you've done to try to make your marriage work, seeing your family should be the least of your H's issues. In fact, it is none of his damm business!

Cat, you gave me some food for thought here. H is choosing to work with me instead of shutting me down for now, and so I think it's a good time to hash out what I can. I spoke to him on the phone at lunch, that I miss my mom and my brothers and sister, and would like to spend more time with them. He was open to it. I said I want to understand, because before he had concerns, and I am willing to work with him to address these concerns. He said that the only thing he asks is that I don't leave the kids unsupervised with my extended family.


I was finishing up taxes this week (yes, still), and ran across a letter my dad wrote to me after I broke things off with him over his evil wife. Even in that letter, the selfish b*stard blamed everything on me and my H. I hate him for being so selfish, but at the same time, I regret pulling D18 away from him.

Cat, hon, I can imagine how painful that is. The "what ifs." And there are times when the best way to defend yourself is to get more space. Is he still alive? From what you've seen and heard from others since then, do you think that he would be open to a civil relationship with you? Or have you seen more evidence that he would still allow himself to be toxic with you?

No, he died of Leukemia a few years ago. On his deathbed, he basically said that he knows we all hate his wife, but that she took care of him, and really, that's all he ever wanted in a wife, so he had to choose her.

Guess I can't argue with that.

How is he doing with the AOs? Still none? Is he still sticking up for you the way he did the other day when your DD wasn't being respectful?

So far, so good. he's out of town since Sunday evening, though, and we usually don't argue when he's away.

With the separation, you'll be able to reconnect with your sister and mom even if he still holds a grudge against them, right?

I'd like to keep this whole thing amicable, and that's the kind of stuff that can bring the ugliness in if it goes unresolved. I'm picturing a bunch of scenarios, and then catching myself saying, "Stop! Don't go there!"

Oh, man, cat, I'm so sorry I hope you've found some peace there.

With the separation, you'll be able to reconnect with your sister and mom even if he still holds a grudge against them, right?

Okay, jayne, I realize that my response was from fear, and I'm working to STOP acting from fear. My intent is to have a good relationship with my family again. I believe that I can do this and not hurt H. I am glad that today, he agrees. If that changes, I will make an attempt to brainstorm, but at the same time, I will need to let go of his response, too.

Hi ears,

Thanks for taking a second look at that question. Especially in light of your discussion over lunch. (Which sounds very amicable BTW!)

I would think that, if y'all are separated, that he shouldn't have anything to say about whether or not you spend time with your family - unless it's an issue with exposing the kids to something. It sounds like his biggest concern is with the children, perhaps a safety issue? Or just not wanting them to be around that influence? So in that case I can understand trying to honor his wishes. It sounds like y'all have worked out a good POJA with that. That's great!

I got you. He says now that his concern is only about the kids being unsupervised. Which I don't agree with in regards to my sister, but I am okay with. The part that I wans't okay with was when he said that he didn't want me or the kids to see thm at all, and that I was in no way enthusiastic about.

I hadn't thought through once we are separated, what my responsibility to the M is to POJA. I think it would be pretty much the same as today. To not be the source of his unhappiness. To try to find the happy medium. But when H is unwilling to negotiate, I can check my intent, and if my intent is pure, then take the action that I decide.

So you aren't going to "go dark"?

Jayne, I see how darkness helps, and I think I would go somewhat dark. But altogether would be hard I think, when we would be trying to co-parent. I don't see POJAing stuff that doesn't relate to the kids going forward at that point. I didn't really think it through so much. But for today, I thought it made sense to try to find a win-win.

I agree, I think you did good today, POJAing and finding the win-win.

I love the new title of your thread BTW!

I had a thought: if you are going to have this separation, it might be important for you to find out for sure if the suspicions you sometimes have, have any basis. It will be really hard to install a keylogger once he moves out. Do you think there's enough doubt that you should check it out? Do you think you would be ready to face whatever you find out now?

I am ready to face whatever a keylogger would find. I had decided not to originally from fear. But then later had thought through it some more and decided against it. It was H's company computer that he uses. I am praying about it, that if this is something that I need to do, please make it obvious.

What can I gain from a keylogger? Knowledge of why he's distant sometimes and hostile at others. Confirmation that it's not about me. Is there another reason I'm not seeing?

Jayne, if it was another woman, I don't think that I would fight harder or much differently for my marriage than I am today. I would keep working to detach in love. I would most likely add exposure to that. But I don't see how we could work a recovery after that with alcohol still such a big factor.

I think it was more likely internet porn that was a diversion. Again, until the alcohol issue is addressed, I don't see us making headway in that, either.

I knowingly took this risk, jayne, going into this years ago, what Harley says about not being able to POJA when there is alcohol abuse. It's the other books, too. That these ideas only work when there is no alcohol abuse present, because when there is, folks don't work the program. And I wanted to believe H that it wasn't a problem. Because I wanted to reconnect with him, in a lasting way, so badly.

I got advice to separate at that time. But I was afraid about leaving stones unturned, and I didn't. I understand now, jayne, that if he's meant to kick this, then he will. But it's out of my hands. It's always been out of my hands.