MMM, no we did not separate. The realizations happened in our second year of marriage or so and it was still early and time to change the dynamic.

It was terribly hard for me to break my bad LB habits. Many times I cried in big remorseful sobs to him when I realized how awful I had been. I also asked my husband to forgive me a few times for specific things I said.

I was really remorseful and worked very very hard WITH my husband's help, to fully break my LB's forever. I developed a plan that I thought would work for me to break all the LB's. Some of it I outlined here to you.

Part of the plan was that he was to tell me if he saw me LB before I saw it myself.

I learned to observe what was an LB, write them down, and recognize them later.

Soon, after doing the LB Eradication plan for a while, when an LB threatened to burst out of me, I would actually be able to STOP myself. After I took a breath, I would then tell my Husband that I almost had an outburst or whatever it was. He would notice that I was working on not doing it to him. And thank me.

I guess I have not LB'd for years now, and it feels so good. My husband can trust me and love me and I can do the same with him. It is so much better with out outbursts or LB's.

My outbursts to my husband have been replaced by outbursts of LOVE or HUMOR. It is much more fun and less stressful!

Looking back, had I not changed my LB behavior early on, I might be where you are now. Perhaps my husband would have had to get away sooner. Who knows. I do not think my husband would have put up with it though he loves me so much. He would have put a stop to it.

I remember a couple times my husband did confront me about the LB's. This helped a lot, and forced me to see what I was doing and saying to him. I would say at my worst, I LB'd four times a week. But it was hurtful and terrible to be that way.

This is the place that I would like to get to. I've found that it is such a natural response that it is difficult to get that moment of pause where you can even make the decision not to have an angry outburst or DJ. I've been monitoring myself since all the exchanges that took place last week here on my thread. Every once in awhile, I am lashing out at my Mom and Grandma -- because I am talking to them more than I normally would and my H isn't around. My Mom and Gram don't make an issue of it and just brush it off as me being in a bad mood. But I keep telling them that this is not good. . .I can't keep doing this. They keep minimizing my behavior and its effects. Saying that my H should just "man up" and that living with me couldn't have been that bad -- that I am just under stress.

In the past, I would tell my H that I couldn't change -- that is just how I react to things. Of course, now I know that I can change but have to figure out how. Cause wanting to change and actually doing it are two different things. All those times he told me to change, I really did want to . . but I couldn't sustain it long term. . .as Steve Harley put it. . .crisis management change not authentic-belief-system change.

Hmph. . .I just need to keep reading and evaluating. I am going to try an Al-anon meeting tomorrow (Tuesday).

I also filled out the LB questionnaire for husbands and typed it up to send to my H ( my handwriting is horrible). I am going to have to phrase my words very carefully in order for him to agree to helping me with this so he doesn't feel manipulated.

It would be interesting to see how our perceptions differ -- how often I think that I LB versus how often he thinks I did.

NOW I see you making some progress. Keep it up.

Thanks -- sometimes I think my skull is thicker than the average person

MMM, I put a long post regarding my session with Steve yesterday on my thread and i am not going to repeat it here as it will take away from your thread, but i mentioned the LB questionaire to steve and here is the answer i got from him:

About giving my H the LB questionnaire compiling it myself from his point of view. I was reluctant to do this because I said it opens all the wounds again. Steve said it is good to do because I have to tell H this: I want to make sure that what you read and add to this you are never going to experience again as I am making sure I do not have this behavior ever again in the future.

I checked out your post -- Steve gave you a lot of information to digest. You are right about one thing -- our Hs aren't going to buy the theory that "we're doing this to improve ourselves only."

Yes, we are doing this to improve ourselves BUT we are also pursuing this course of action because our marriages are on the brink of destruction.

When are you going to give your H the questionnaire?

Oh, I think I forgot to post -- I got a notice in the mail that my H changed the address on his driver's license. That hurt. Apparently it is a new thing our state is doing -- sending a notice to the old address to make sure it wasn't a fraudulent change.

Hi Everyone -- I drafted the email below to send to my H. I used some of the wording from my session with Steve. Let me know what you all think before I send this email with the questionnaire.

Dear H;

As I’ve mentioned previously, I regard this separation as a time of growth and a time to reflect on me -- the only person left in the room. I have realized many things about myself and am setting out to change because it is in my best interest to do so. I can’t live the rest of my life making the same mistakes and repeating the same hurtful behaviors.

I am working with a counselor to try and nail down my bad habits using the Love Busters concepts. I have attached a questionnaire that traditionally a husband would fill out describing the wife’s behaviors. At the counselor’s request, I’ve filled it out as if I were you; so it documents how I perceive my Love Busters affected you.

Since you are the one that knows me best, I would really appreciate your feedback on the things that made me unattractive by reviewing my answers to the questionnaire and editing as necessary. The terms are described in the Love Busters book or you can go to www.marriagebuilders.com and click on Basic Concepts. You will see the Love Busters category to the left.

This is not a ploy to “get you back”; I genuinely need to figure this out and make the necessary changes. Please let me know if you are willing to help.

Thanks
Me

I think it is good. If he does not respond, there are some things you can do then at that point.

If he does not respond, then you can:

1. E-mail him and ask him point blank what you do that drives him nutz. You can tell him a few things you do that you THINK hurt his feelings and then ask for clarification if this is so.

2. Talk to him on the phone about how it is living with you for a typical day. Morning to night. Tell him you really want to understand what had been going on in your marriage.

3. Ask him which things you do are worse and which are just annoying. You can list a bunch of the things you do and say to him to get clarification from him.

Are you able to GUESS at what you did to hurt him every day for 10 or so years????

Are you able to guess at the attitudes you had toward him that made living with you miserable?

I think you can guess some of it and then get clarification from the spouse who was damaged and is withdrawn. There is no need to make that spouse "cough up all of the information" or "make all the efforts at communication". You can do a lot of the work, of discovering your actions in the marriage, and sharing those, and and then you can smoothly clarify what you already know and get more answers from the damaged person.

*That way, you are reaching out "more than halfway". Please learn that concept.

Reaching out "more than halfway" to a person does not mean trying to force them back in your life by questioning them or being aggressive or forward, rather "more than halfway" in this case means that you are willing to come out and tell him the specific things you "did wrong" and "said wrong" that caused the damage. And you are willing to tell him and SHOW him your process of personal growth and insight to your own behavior. You are reaching out as an AMBASSADOR to work out the peace. And the reasons for conflict in the past.

What you are in effect saying to your husband then would be " I am realizing I did this and that, _______, and ________wrong" and "the way I said this was terrible it must have hurt."

Then: "The attitudes I had that I can see now were _________and ________which took you for granted and made you into my target for getting out my stress on."

And: "I have to learn this stuff so I can get along with others in the world and will not be offensive or hurtful any more."

First of all, let me state that I'm in a mood today and this probably won't come off quite the way I'd like. But a few of your statements struck me in an odd way.


The bolded statement sounds like a cheap shot. I'd leave it out.

For some reason, this paragraph hits me like the lead in to a sales pitch. "What's the catch" is the phrase coming to my mind.

Ahh, so that's the catch. Now I feel like I've been suckered into doing a chore. While what you are asking is not exactly difficult, it has the impersonal touch of a telemarketer.

I can't help but seeing that this *IS* a ploy to get him back. At bare minimum, get rid of the statement saying it isn't.

Personally, since you are on speaking terms with him, why not just ask him face to face?

Tabby has amazing thoughts here, and I have to agree, that is why I am saying what I said in my post. You could have a friendly e-mail talk or real talk with him and "Meet him more than halfway" as I have said.

If you JUST send the letter and the EN lists, then it does sound mechanical and kind of forced.

You can do the "spirit" of the list without actually sending the list itself!

When my husband and I had our issues, I knew he would not ever fill out things on a LIST! But I knew also that if I asked him about his needs and wants and what I percieved as my LB's, he would talk about these with me.

So, I verbally talked using concepts off the EN lists and the LB concepts. Yet I got what I needed from what he said, not what he was forced to write down on a LIST.

A LIST may be good for a married couple where both people WANT desparately to work out thier marriage and uncover some blind areas...in the marriage

But in your case, a written list could appear cold and like a huge chore that he would not do and would not want to do.

It might be easier getting your information verbally from him and talking to him. Instead.

I didn't think I would ever be replying on here but I just felt so much, this thread continues to bring me to tears.
Just imagne you ARE pregnant right now... that is where I am. I feel so much of the same things you have expressed. Aside from the physical issues I made the same horrible mistakes and as it sounds my 'H' says a lot of the same things in reguards to trying to rebuild.
But, my thought is this... I know and realize that you have come to see the mistakes you have made and are still working on that progress. But take it from me as I stand where you are that every time you send a nasty e mail, text, message or toss a snide remark you 'prove' to your H that you have not changed. You give him one more piece of evidence that you won't ever change.
I am working on that same issue and it is very hard to do, but now at this point I question every thing I think and everything I feel before I allow myself to release it.

And my word of advice on the pushing for the D... stop, if it is not truly what YOU want. Your pushing because you are 'trying to do it for him' is simpy another form of control and abuse.

Just my 2 cents, maybe I'm wrong...

Okay -- I will take it out -- Steve Harley had used these words which is why I put them in there.


Hmmm. . .originally Steve thought I would be presenting this questionnaire to my husband in person during our coffee date. this was what he told me to say:

"I am working with a guy that is helping me nail down my bad habits. I am trying to nail down my bad habits and you know me better than anyone. Can you please look this over? I really would appreciate your feedback on the things that made me unattractive. This is not a ploy to get you back, H; I genuinely need to nail this stuff down -- no matter what"

He wanted me to keep driving home the "no matter what" point. But when we met for coffee, I just wasn't feeling like it was the right time to bring up the "heavy" stuff.


Well, every time I try to talk on the phone about anything related to the marriage or relationship -- even asking about the stuff I did wrong -- he shuts down -- I can hear the doors shutting in his brain and heart. he says that he doesn't want to rehash it because it is too painful. then the conversation gets awkward and it is awful.

So, I thought that sending the request via email would be less threatening and give him a chance to formulate a response. I didn't mean to come off so clinical -- I just didn't want to get too flowery and emotional.

P.S. I didn't particularly care for the "this isn't a ploy" phrase myself because I do want to save my marriage and he should know that is my desire.

Well, I was pretty specific on my LB questionnaire and I have a good idea of "what" I did but I am not so sure on how often. I would bet that my H feels I used LBs much, much more that I think I used them.

Thank you for posting Mari -- I am so sorry to hear of your situation. I could not imagine being pregnant right now -- your emotions must be all over the place.

I still wrestle with the divorce thing -- sometimes I feel like I do want one -- that maybe we are better apart -- that maybe it was wrong from the start. Then, an hour later, I am crying because I miss my H. So, as they say here, feelings shift and can't be relied upon. I forget which book it was in but the words "Love is a choice" often floats to my mind when I start to slip into withdrawal.

Read the paragraph Steve told you to say and read the paragraph you wrote in the letter. Do you see the difference? Even the phrase "I have attached a questionaire..." is enough to make me stop reading right there. The "ploy" sentence in Steve's paragraph doesn't even seem to bad where it is, while it reeks of manipulation in your original letter.

Also, I'm very concerned with this statement:


Have you considered that he really and truly does NOT want to talk about this stuff? Another poster on this page (sorry, I can only read the post I'm replying to) suggested that every single time you contact him about this stuff, you could be adding to his pile of evidence that you have not changed. This in itself could be a major LB. Have you discussed this aspect of it with Steve?

What Steve told me to say verbally didn't translate well (to me anyway) to the written word. So I modified it. . .I guess not too well.


Yes, I have been reluctant to send the questinnaire because I am afraid it will push him further away. But then I thought -- well, Steve is the expert at this . . .maybe I should just follow his lead. I did not talk to Steve about this because he told me to make an appointment after I gave the questionnaire to my H.

please PM me... I tried to PM you but I can't for some reason

I tried -- it doesn't work for me either. I get a UBB thread error.

Ok not sure why that doesn't work but anyway, I just thought we could chat privately... I know I could use a friend that can relate. If you'd like since the PMs don't work here you can e mail me or IM me on AOL/AIM mbelle1105@aol.com