Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 28 of 38 1 2 26 27 28 29 30 37 38
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,173
W
Member
Member
W Offline
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,173
I understand that there has been a lack of intimacy in your relations for a long time. But what intrigues me is the part about:
Quote
lack of desire for sf experiences
It doesn't seem like she has a lack of desire...

enough about that!

Ugh

What a mess

there was another poster here a couple of years ago, who had a WW who had some sort of disorder. They never did figure out what. But in her case, she just could not, would not, give up her OM. It was the strangest thing. she had lost the resepct of her parents, and her grown sons. She knew she was hurting her H. She would spend hours with the phone up to her ear, listening to OM go on and on and on about himself. But she would not give up "her freind" All of this took place right out in the open in their house. She only met the OM in person one time (met him on the internet) because he lived in Canada and she was in Georgia. He was M, unemployed, and living with his W who worked many hours in a cafe to support the family. I don't think that the WW had any plans to someday M the OM.

You might want to do a search for his posts. I think he started out as GeorgiaGuy, and later changed to GG,or justGG, something like that.

I do not think his WW's issues sound the same as your W's, but you may be interested in seeing posts from another H who was dealing with personality disorders.







Married 18 years
D Day June 25, 2003
Divorced December 17, 2003

Newly married to a wonderful man!
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,278
D
Member
Member
D Offline
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,278
Quote
actually read the descriptions of the disorder it reads like the person is self absorbed, shallow, narcissistic and selfish. When did that become a disease instead of a character flaw.

Because some people are lacking development in that area of the brain. I'll bet the disease is over-diagnosed, though, and that label is given to those that don't really have it. You're right in that arena.

The same thing happens with ADD. Over-diagnosed.

Charlotte

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,173
W
Member
Member
W Offline
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,173
Quote
I'm feeling like a jerk now because I'm not going to let her stay if she doesn't work on being a real mother and maybe she is not capable of being a good mother

yeah, I know what you mean here. this worries me to - as in, "he can't dump me now, because I have a real diagnosis"

I suppose if this current diagnosis continues, then at some point her parents would get involved. I wonder what her mom would say about all this.



Married 18 years
D Day June 25, 2003
Divorced December 17, 2003

Newly married to a wonderful man!
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
6
Member
Member
6 Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
I found a doc who will take her tomorrow, I called him at home (I'm desperate and I have the connections to find home numbers). He did say that this is a very difficult diagnosis it is often murky at best and a single meeting is probably insufficient even for him and he specialized in this area. He also wanted to see the letters so I will send over copies. He is super expensive but she has a 9:00 am appt. I figure it is best either way. If it is true then I have the best doc around here, if it is not real I will know tomorrow.

W wants it to be true, and that is pissing me off.





Last edited by 6yearsleft; 09/30/08 06:46 PM.

Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,284
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,284
6years,

I think you should step back just a second. It seems to me it makes no difference if she has this malady or not. If she is unwilling to work on the marriage and be the mother and W your children and you need, the reason is ONLY important to her.

AS far as you and kids are concerned she is a failure as a W and mother, and given her behavior you might be best off without her.

That is of course your call. But, my point is that no matter the reason, her behavior is unacceptable. It needs to change. The good news might be if it were some sort of chemical imbalance that could be addressed, it would require less will power on her part. The bad news is if she has some syndrome that cannot be addressed and part of the syndrome is that she does not want to address it. The middle ground would be that she tried her best but was only marginally successful.

All of this is her call, her problem, her issue to address. You can only facilitate her getting care and attention to diagnos and address the issues. You can do no more.

Interestingly, while she may embrace the diagnosis as letting her off the hook, you might find it also lets you off the hook. It means NOTHING YOU COULD HAVE DONE OR DID justified her behavior or even led to her behavior. And NOTHING YOU WILL DO will change her behavior. It might relieve the anger you and your children have, to realize it was not anyone's fault, she is flawed in a deep way.

It seems to me sad if this is in fact the case, and I am sure you are saddened because it means you and your kids had just plain bad luck.

One could argue this from every side, but the main thing to realize is that it was, is, and will be HER CALL with regards to addressing whatever issues she has.

God Bless,

JL

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
K
Member
Member
K Offline
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
And well it should p*ss you off.

Here's the thing, whether it's depression, hormones, bi-polar or ANY other mental illess.

She's AWARE. Therefore, she's accountable. Like it or not, accountability is what she's always skirted away from and just because she thinks this gives her an out, she has the same choice she always had.

DEAL WITH IT!

Because the consequences for her to use "the out" is the same unhappiness as if she weren't mental! She will still be alone. She will still be a bad mother until she changes how she behaves.

I'm speaking as one married to someone who had the diagnosis and decided he didn't want an out. We're married because he didn't choose the excuse. He worked on his behavior and continues to work on his behavior. He knows I can leave any time should he decide he has "an excuse".

Mrs. 6 - consider yourself on notice. You have no excuse. Only ownership. If you know what you are up against, get the heck out of your comfort zone, because that comfort zone hasn't been comfortable for quite some time, has it?


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,637
C
Member
Member
C Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,637
6,

I may have told you that my youngest son has both a severe mental illness and autism. Both conditions cause the person to behave in ways that are incredibly difficult for the family.

It's no excuse. As a parent, my job is to teach my son to be responsible for his behavior and do whatever he must to overcome his challenges. As a person with two difficult conditions, his job is to accept responsibility for the damage done by his illness-related behaviors, express remorse, make amends, and take whatever steps he can to avoid future incidents. He must take his meds, get adequate sleep, and eat a healthy diet. He must learn the rules of social relationships. It goes on and on.

Even if your wife has a severe mental illness, actions and choices have consequences. If she chooses to behave in ways that are destructive to her marriage and her family, you have every right and responsibility to put a boundary around that behavior. An illness may explain the behavior but it neither excuses it nor eliminates the consequences.

Your W must be given to understand that even if she has a mental illness, her actions and choices have consequences. She is capable of making right choices. If she doesn't "want" to, then a clear understanding of consequences may help her to want to. If she understands the consequences and still chooses to harm your family, then your job is to enforce the consequences and protect your children from further harm.

I do think your W can behave in ways to heal your family. But if she refuses to do so, then you are justified in your boundary enforcements.


Chrysalis
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
6
Member
Member
6 Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
JL and Kayla,

Thanks for the perspective. I think the details of this will effect how I can deal with this. If it turns out to be something she just cannot fix, like if she had a stroke or something then I have to take care of her. A or no A that is the deal with marriage. I know she would not do it for me but that doesn't matter. I may take care of her away from the children so they can heal as well.

If it is something she could work on and won't do it, then she is out and soon. I need time to help the kids heal from this and I need to heal as well.




Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,245
C
Member
Member
C Offline
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,245
Quote
W wants it to be true, and that is pissing me off.
Certainly not trying to be her defender, but for your benefit, I want to point out why she is likely wanting it to be true. Walk in her shoes, if you will. For the last few weeks, she has been the lowest thing next to pond scum. She's been walking on eggshells for all this time, likely knowing how much everyone hates her or wants her to leave, at least on some level (assuming the diagnosis is valid).

So along comes this possible crutch, a way to say she's not quite the end of civilization, and a way to possibly be not such an evil monster. It makes perfect sense that it would make her feel better.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
K
Member
Member
K Offline
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
Just so that you understand the distinction between permanent disability where there is no awareness - like alzheimers or a stroke or dimentia, and mental illness where treatment is difficult...

Cognitive/behavioral therapy works well with a motivated, willing patient with the diagnosis this doctor gave your wife today. She's functional - therefore, treatable if motivated and willing. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE - this is not a can't perceive-can't treat kind of thing.

HERE'S THE BIGGEST CLUE YET!!

She KNOWS she's been "off". She HAS changed her behavior in the last 4 months because she was MOTIVATED to not lose you. THEREFORE, she's treatable.

DO NOT let go of your boundaries and treat her like she can't help herself. Because she can! She has. and she can continue! Unless YOU give her the out!


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
6
Member
Member
6 Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
Chrysalis,

I did not know that about your child. I am sorry you have to deal with something so difficult. I am sure that my problems seem miniscule in comparison to a child with disabilities.

Gabe



Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,637
C
Member
Member
C Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,637
Gabe, that was very kind of you. Watching my child in the throes of madness was indeed difficult. I have spent many nights sitting by his bed to comfort him, crying over his pain. So has my H.

My H's 2 years of cake-eating caused me (personally) much more difficulty. I had severe PTSD for a year after NC was in place. I think I am now free of that. I feel happy and free (and in love with my no-longer-alien husband) for the first time in many years.

The difference was this: My son has an illness. He tries very hard and is building a good character even though it has cost him a lot of suffering to do so.

My husband chose to act selfishly for no good reason. No matter what I did (and I did some very extreme plan A for the 2 years) it didn't matter. OW was the most beautiful and exciting person he had ever met, and he just couldn't (didn't have to) decide. And I was still there raising our son as long as he kept lying to me. His plan was to keep me around until our son was raised and I was 60, and then leave. (that is why your story hit me so hard.)

My sons illness wasn't personal and was nobody's fault. It was the luck of the genetic draw. He has great value and is made to do something special someday, and we plan on helping him find out what the special thing is he was made to do. We enjoy him. We hurt for him. But his illness was not the result of anybody's bad behavior. Most of the research scientists I have come to know (as a part of trying to help my son and other afflicted families) say that it would be a terrible thing for the human race for the genes for his illness to be eliminated-- because the genes for madness are entertwined with the genes for creativity and genius. We are going to continue to do the best we can to meet our situation, and continue to work, pray, and hope for a cure that alleviates suffering but does not rob humanity of genius.

There are no infidelity genes. We are all wired to be selfish and inconsiderate, and we can all choose to act unselfishly and to try to overcome our challenges.

Fortunately, my H has worked hard to give up his selfishness and be the H he should have been all along. When a wayward spouse does that, and when you give it enough time to get through the PTSD together, you can fall in love again. It is possible to get to a place of setting aside the awful things your spouse did to you in another time, and to celebrate today's good times.

I still have every hope for you and your W and for your children. She simply must be willing to change some basic behaviors. That is the next critical step.



Chrysalis
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,965
T
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,965
Originally Posted by 6yearsleft
If it turns out to be something she just cannot fix, like if she had a stroke or something then I have to take care of her. A or no A that is the deal with marriage.
This is not some debilitating disease like stroke or Alzheimer's. She is a cognizant, capable adult. She does not need watching or daily care.

As KaylaAndy pointed out, this is something she CAN fix. She proved that for several months recently. If she chooses not to fix it, then she's simply stating that a happy marriage is not important to her. Being a good loving and loved Mom is not important to her. That would be sad, but it's a choice she can (and may) make. Why would you torture yourself and the children by staying married to a woman who does not want the marriage nor the children?

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 998
C
Member
Member
C Offline
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 998
My mother suffered from Narcassistic Personality Disorder and I have had two therapist tell me that even if she wanted to be cured it would take years and years of therapy to see much as far as results.

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
6
Member
Member
6 Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
Coachswife, Turtle, JL :

I just had my conversation with the personality disorders specialist. He said that he cannot make a conclusive diagnosis but there are many symptoms which do not fit with the original diagnosis. He also said that reading through a sampling of the letters gave him doubts about the original diagnosis. He is going to see her again in a couple of days because he feels she could benefit from more therapy.

I pushed him on the idea of if she can be responsible for her own choices. He said that she is competent and does not seem to have an organic brain problem. So he thought she could make changes through behavioral therapy and did not need drugs and would not benefit from them. He also said it is a long long road and that she would have to really be dedicated to make the changes. But that she can decide to do this or not.

That gave me enough to know what I want to do. I will support her in working to make changes, even if I ultimately get a D. If she will not work on the changes then I'm cutting my losses on her and focusing on the children. I have not had time to process how this colors my views and feelings about the A.


Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 6,515
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 6,515
6, I never did hear how the camping trip with the boys went.
I can't believe you would leave out such important details.

It's almost like you are in a crisis or something.



Smile, it's supposed to be good for your face.

SS


I think sometimes about all the pain in the world. I hope we can ease that here, even if only a little bit.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 998
C
Member
Member
C Offline
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 998
Originally Posted by 6yearsleft
So he thought she could make changes through behavioral therapy and did not need drugs and would not benefit from them. He also said it is a long long road and that she would have to really be dedicated to make the changes. But that she can decide to do this or not.

I'm bipolar myself so I can relate to being out of control so to speak. My dr. says that I was probably having an episode when I had my A because it was completely out of character for me. I disagree and I'm not going to use that as an excuse.

My mom took all kinds of medications but they never seemed to help her at all. That was part of the reason how I found out she had a personality disorder. My therapist said medication is usually not helpful for these disorders because it's deep in your personality.

Hopefully she will make the choice to get help but if not you cannot force her to. I'd hate to see her blame the A on this and not get to the bottom of why she's done what she's done.

There is a reason and she needs to find out why she had the A.

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
6
Member
Member
6 Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
We are going to talk about a plan for her to become a real mother tonight. It will be a tough discussion since she is going to have to give up her girls nights and weekends away. I'm not ready to promise that I won't D at the end but I am working to give her the chance to be a good mom.

I hope she can do this. On my side right now my love bank is so far in the negative I just wish she would leave us alone.




Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,965
T
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,965
Originally Posted by 6yearsleft
That gave me enough to know what I want to do. I will support her in working to make changes, even if I ultimately get a D. If she will not work on the changes then I'm cutting my losses on her and focusing on the children. I have not had time to process how this colors my views and feelings about the A.
I think your plan is sound, rational, and wise.

Regarding the A, it may or may not be related to these behavioral tendencies she has. If it was, then behavior modification through therapy will be a good thing. It will be one of the precautions she takes to ensure the A never happens again.

If it turns out the behavioral tendencies were NOT conducive to the A, then she'll put other precautions and boundaries in place - which she'd do regardless.

So I don't see, as far as the A is concerned, that this new knowledge is hugely significant.

I DO see it as being hugely significant as to whether you stay in the M and support her efforts to change, or whether you remove yourself from the M and focus on your children. I think you are processing everything in a surprisingly sane manner, given the circumstances. Most could not do nearly as well and I think none could do better.

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
6
Member
Member
6 Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 896
Turtle,

Thanks for the perspective, it is difficult for me to get any real insight on this from the inside. My Dad, who is kind of tough, told me that it is the hard times that really show us what we are made of. I know it is like a hallmark card but it helped coming from him.

We spoke last night, W is going to come up with her own plan and we will discuss it tonight. My conditions are no more girls nights, no more weekends away and that she has to pick 50% of the chores at home (other than the ones the children do.) Also she has to sit with us at dinner every night. She looked at me like I was sentencing her to death but she is going to think about it today.




Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
Page 28 of 38 1 2 26 27 28 29 30 37 38

Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 398 guests, and 103 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Jerry Watson, Toothsome, IO Games, IronMaverick, Gregory Robinson
72,039 Registered Users
Latest Posts
Three Times A Charm
by Vallation - 07/24/25 11:54 PM
How important is it to get the whole story?
by still seeking - 07/24/25 01:29 AM
Annulment reconsideration help
by abrrba - 07/21/25 03:05 PM
Help: I Don't Like Being Around My Wife
by abrrba - 07/21/25 03:01 PM
Following Ex-Wifes Nursing Schedule?
by Roger Beach - 07/16/25 04:21 AM
My wife wants a separation
by Roger Beach - 07/16/25 04:20 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,625
Posts2,323,524
Members72,039
Most Online6,102
Jul 3rd, 2025
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 2025, Marriage Builders, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0