So if your WS was dumped by OP, does it matter that NC has been established for a long while, and they have returned to the M, or do their motivation to do so was self imposed or not?

Does it really matter how the fog was broken, or should one just accept and be grateful for the fact that it was?

What does that do for the integrety of the WS?

Does it not seem like an eternal accepting of the WS's crumbs or not?

I'm kinda at a loss.

What do I accept after all these years, and what do I reject?

I'm not sure I am totally happy with R!!!

I have issues after all these years, and I'm quite convinced, there is no immediate conclusion for me.

I'm thinking that a polygraph after all these years is the only way to get the truth. But why do I want the truth if all is R in the first place?

Sorry, just having a struggling night!!!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

I hope someone with more experience answers this because I wonder about the same thing. I've seen a lot of marriages stay together after an A, only to break up later. I can see how that would happen. The BS wants the M so badly, but then resentment builds and they just can't get over it.

Interesting question....

My WW complained vigorously about other yornger W would call him at work, and I would ask, "Why do you care one way or the other?"

It wasn't till after the fact that I realized that she felt cheated upon, by the one she was cheating with.

Now I know why she quit her job. She finally realized she was being used like a piece of meat, and couldn't take it anymore.


Pumps my integrity like a halohgen baloon.

Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

My belief is that the crucial thing is for the A to end. How NC is achieved isn't the most important thing; the M can't endure an ongoing A indefinitely.

(But given the choice I'd choose the repentant and contrite heart....)

Having said that, my marriage didn't make it to NC and recovery. So my opinion on this topic isn't worth much.

But it would seem to me that you have the choice to stay in the marriage, or not. And you can decide whether to work for (and insist upon) a great marriage or not. None of us can control what our spouses (wayward or otherwise) do.

Did you reconcile without getting radical honesty?

- WG

Like Woundedgentleman, my M didn't make to NC or R either. In fact, I bailed out fairly early. But reading some of the threads here I don't know if it's how NC was established that is most important, but how soon. It is my opinion that Runnerboy applied MB principals the best of any poster - and he did it on instinct before he even found the site - and I have a good feeling that his M will recover into a great marriage in the end. His WW's OM dumped her immediately upon discovery leaving her in utter and intense shame. Others have gone the full Plan A and a lengthy Plan B, finally accepting their life only to have their WS come crawling back after the A broke down. In those cases, they write here asking should I or shouldn't I because they don't even know anymore if they still want the M.

So it might sound nice to read another's story when the WS was remorseful, but I don't think their pain and indecision is any less because of it, nor is their resentfulness.

I'm not the best example of a great MB approach but it does matter to me that WW was dumped and did not choose me instead of OM. We are trying, mostly for the children right now. I'm taking my time deciding if I can get over the whole A thing.

Jerry - my firm belief is it doesn't matter how the affair ends.

It only matters that it ends and that then the WS returns and commits to the marriage and wholeheartedly commits to the recovery process - whatever it takes as long as it takes.

All the good recoveries you see around here had that magic pixie dust.

Jerry...something to think about as you muddle through this line of thinking:


Does it really matter how....

What if your wife chose to ignore you or chose to defiantly "do what she wanted to do regardless of what you wanted" and drove her car into a flooded viaduct and found the car COVERED by water and beginning to be swept away with the flood waters?

What if she chose to open the door, even though it meant getting wet and possibly drowning, but she needed to get back to you and to safety despite her original "dumb choice?"

What if she thought she could "make it anyway" if she just stayed in the car, and the passenger she had picked up along the way decided to open THEIR door and "swim for it," thereby "forcing" your wife to also choose to "swim for it," eventually making it by the grace of God back to safety and to you?

Does it really matter how....

Or does really matter from here on....


God bless.

NC is a critical step from what I understand, since I didn't get to it either. (Notice a pattern here, it seems more WW DON'T come back than do.)

It would be nice that they realize on their own that what they did was wrong, instead of being driven by external factors, such as being dumped by the OM.

However, what is the MOST critical AFTER NC is what the WW does. If they just return and don't change how they approach the marriage, it doesn't really matter how NC was established, the marriage is threatened by doing the same things that got the couple into the affair situation.

I would be more concerned about what the WW does after NC is established. Is she actively MB'ing, or just hoping she'll be taken back and everything swept under the rug.

If the WW will not engage in MB'ing, it may not be a good idea to actually allow her back into the home.

Sounds a bit like what happened to my FWW. The other OW was younger than her, and evidently the OM was carrying on a relationship with her all through the A with my FWW. Just before she left the office, the OM was basically flaunting his relationship with the other OW in front of her. I think it was more about envy and jealousy rather than feeling like a piece of meat. It took at least a month or two of absolutely no contact for my FWW to "get" how she was really used by the OM.

Of course knowing that my FWW just "fell back into our M" because she was rejected by the OM doesn't make me feel any better.

I'd say it doesn't matter WHY the A ended, only that it did and that NC was established. This allows the fog to clear, and it's the actions after the fog clears that are key to building a strong and happy marriage.

Many BS feel like they're "second choice" or "accepting crumbs" if the OP dumped the WS. That's not really the case at all. If the BS really was second choice, the WS wouldn't stick around. They'd know the grass was greener elsewhere, and they'd go looking for that greener pasture.

...or they could simply be sticking around until something better turns up.

I have read where the WW came back on her own.
Where the WW was dumped.

Whether the WW was the dumper or dumpee did not impact the recovery. Even if the dumping mutual.

What impacted recover was getting NC. There may of been some backsliding but at first. But NC had to be established and verified. That is what is important.

What impacted the most was the WW transparent. Gave up all of her passwords. Cell phone access. Asnwered all affair questions.
Did all she could to recover her marriage.

What a WW does after the affair is over is what is important.

Sure but then their actions would give away their intentions.

It's the actions they take after the fog clears that are important. If the wayward takes all the steps to build a strong healthy marriage, they're not waiting for someone else better and the BS is not second choice.

Now if the wayward just kind of hangs around and doesn't want to be open and transparent, doesn't want to set and enforce boundaries, doesn't want to eliminate LBs and meet ENs... then it doesn't really matter if the BS was second choice or not, the M is not worth saving.

Jerry,

I will disagree with some others here. I think it DOES matter that the only reason they return is that they were dumped. I think it matters a lot.

Now, if you are a "marriage at all costs" person, perhaps you don't mind the affair partners reject...but IMHO, if you have any self respect, you do not want to be someones second choice.

I think a polygraph is an excellent idea in ALL cases of marital infidelity. I suspect that the vast majorit of people in "recovered" marriages NEVER get the truth.

I would not suggest a polygraph if you are not prepared to act. "NEVER pick your nose unless you know what you are going to do with the booger."

MEDC

Jerry, you have been to some AA meetings, right? Have you noticed that most are not there because they woke up one fine morning and magically saw the error of their ways, stopped drinking, and skipped to my lou to their first AA meeting?

Honestly, I can't think of anyone who sobered up without some kind of gun to their head, and it hasn't effected their recovery as far as I can see. I only stopped because my H threatened to kick me out and take my children away from me. He drove me to my first AA meetings and sat out in the parking lot.

My first sponsor quit drinking because she backed over an 18 month child [killed her] in her drive way and the judge ordered her to AA.

I have been sober for 23 years, and she has been sober for 35 years. I believe the fog of adultery is just the same. It doesn't matter how the drunk got to the meeting, it just matters that he put down the drink.

I think that expecting a rational decision from a DRUNK - ie: I see the error of my ways and am going to end this rightly - is unrealistic.

I agree with Mel for those that buy into the whole FOG theory, it really doesn't matter.

I am not a "fog" person. There are too many rational (albeit evil) decisions that waywards make for them to be considered "under the influence." Most of their actions are premeditated and have a foreseeable outcome IMHO. As I do with many things, I liken it back to a crime....and the actions of a WS would be akin to an "intentional" level of crime.

For those that believe in the fog theory...it shouldn't matter how or why the affair ended...just that it did.

MEDC, you DON'T buy into the fog theory? You have been here for years and you can see how NUTS and irrational some of these WS's are. Just look at the stupid, insane rationalizations they use?

Conversely, if you have a lot of self respect, it won't bother you a lick after a year or two of recovery whether you were briefly your WW's second choice, as long as you are your repentent FWW's first choice today.

IF you're self-respecting, you'll easily be able to outshine any OP...in your OWN mind [fairly simple to be better than a conniving interloping coachroach].

Technically...her (or any wayward spouse's) first choice is an addiction. It is an illusion and NOT a REAL person anyway.

Besides, you were ALWAYS God's first choice for your spouse and He brought you two together because you ARE perfect for each other.

Through Him...there is much to be learned whilst enduring this ordeal/trial.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- My MIL (with my input) orchestrated OM dumping my wife and it's an often neglected part of these plans. I try to tell every BS to not forget to attack the OP's side as well. OM's are particularly vulnerable creatures, whom...do to the nature of affairs and differences I've observed between WW's and WH's over the years, may be more likely than the WW to end the addiction. End the addiction by whatever mean possible and THEN, "TRY" to recover your marriage. The mere fact the affair is over does NOT equal a recovered marriage.

p.p.s. - To me...bemoaning your position as "2nd choice" is disrespecting and lovebusting yourself and a self-fulfilling prophecy as that is what you will likley see when you look at your own reflection in your now, hopefully repentent FWS's eyes. The more you allow this "feeling" to permeate your existence the weaker and the more insecure you will actually appear to your FWS, thus the less attractive you will actually BE to her/him. Grow up...crap happens...repair it and, eventually, move on. We will all be dead soon enough.

Nah, I don't. I would hear the same things from criminals that were acting in a premeditated fashion.

IMHO, IF a person takes steps to hide what they are doing...they KNOW it is wrong...hence...no foggy thinking.