I think recovery comes in stages. I think its pretty normal for the BS to at first feel a sense of relief when the A is finally over and the marriage is still "together", as our biggest fear leading up to D-day (especially I believe for those of us with kids) is the fear of a messy divorce, without any chance of recovery.

That relief leads us to overlook some things that probably should not be overlooked. Over time however we are able to more critically evaluate our marriage and our lives, and reflect upon the A and what it really means.

You are conflicted, and that is understandable. You state that you are unwilling to exist in an unhappy marriage, you also state that you are unwilling to end the marriage. Those two things MAY be irreconcilable. Obviously there is a solution where neither of those has to happen, but I often think that getting to that solution requires a BS to make a decision that you (and many others) have a hard time making.

That is the belief that an unhappy marriage is worse than divorce. Worse for you, worse for your wife, and most importantly, worse for the kids.

Your W, she knows your conflict. She is preying upon it and using it to her advantage. She is unwilling to give herself fully to the marriage because you have not made her decide what is important. As long as she does not have to make this decision, it is highly unlikely that a happy marriage is possible.

Also, I don't want to come across as saying that your stance should be a "my way or the highway" type of thing. I don't think that at all.

I think the only way a WS buys into recovery is by coming to believe that it is in thier best interests to engage in recovery. Some of that is based around the reluctance to get a divorce, but I think as much of that is based on the WS believing that something better IS possible within the marriage. They have to believe that the effort will be worth it.

Spoke to my W yesterday and in my estimation it did not go well.

I should preface the rest by saying that we are, superficially, doing great. We chat, watch sports together (I am lucky to have a W who loves all sports!), act perfectly pleasant to each other. I think that anyone who sees us together would consider us a happy couple.

However, beneath the surface things are not so great. When we talk about our M and R from her A the discussion is carried by me and she is either unresponsive or angry. Never loving, remorseful, caring, sorry, apologetic, etc. Never.

So yesterday I said that I remain committed to doing everything in my power to make our M better than it was before d-day and that I will not settle for a recovery that gets us back to the pre-d-day "normal". And, I expressed concern that if we fall back to the same behavior patterns we will get the same result and I reiterated my opinion that we need a plan.

In short, her comments during the discussion consisted of things like:

"I can't imagine what you could be unhappy about"

"No matter what I do it's never enough for you"

"What you see in me is all there is; if that's not enough for you then I'm sorry"

And more of the same.

I told her that I am not willing to stay in a marriage that is more like a friendship, that I need to feel wanted, desired, needed, loved.

The conversation also touched on her toxic BF, a topic that also provoked an AO from W, as she asked me "what would you have expected her to do? Betray me and tell you?". I calmly explained that it's not a question of what her friend should have done but rather a question of me choosing who I want to associate with, welcome into my home, etc.

She said that she is content with our relationship but could not tell me what she feels is different about me/us now as compared to when her unhappiness with our M led to her A.

I am beginning to feel that I am ignoring the obvious signs (something I did during her A and swore I would not do again) that she simply has no feelings for me other than perhaps as a provider of a good home and good father to our children. That is just not enough for me. Maybe it's time for me to learn about Plan B.

TIM

I don't think Plan B is appropriate for you TiM. Plan B is a tool used to end an active affair.

You have told your W what you need in a marriage. She is telling you she is unwilling to even attempt it. I think it is gutcheck time for you. I think you need to make a list of what you WANT in your marriage, and what you NEED in your marriage. You need to clarify what is a deal breaker for you. You cannot make your wife do anything, that doesn't mean you have to be married to her.

Understand that she effectively ended the marriage when she chose to have an A. You have offered to attempt recovery with her, she agreed that she wanted that, but she is SHOWING that she is not willing to do what you require in order to remain married to her. She is still holding on to her wayward mindset, I suspect primarily because she can. Her wayward mindset justifies her actions and protects her. But it is eroding your love for her, and if it continues, you will get to the point where you don't really care what she does. I think that before you reach that point you need to decide what you are and aren't willing to settle for. In the wake of infidelity, I find it hard to encourage a BS to settle for much.

Thanks Tyk.

Re "wants" and "needs", the interesting thing is how that list is different now from how it would have looked pre-A. For example, with respect to affection, intimacy, and quality SF, pre-A I was willing to tolerate the status quo - settling for scraps, in effect. However, post-A - and owing perhaps to hearing with my own ears the feelings she had for OM, her willingness to engage him sexually, etc - this is now a NEED of mine. As I said earlier I am no longer willing to settle.

But (seems like there is always a "but") then I look at my DD6 and say to myself how could I let my selfish wants/needs result in the breakup of her family? I'm pretty certain that if I did not have kids I would have ended this long ago. But I do have kids and having been through the breakup of my parents as a young child I have always vowed not to see my kids go through the same ordeal. I guess that's why I feel stuck.

TIM

TIM,

Whatever happened to OM, he was particularly odious given that he was in a position of authority, advocacy and trust. I hope he is not back in a coaching position of any kind, did you ever consider a lawsuit against him, perhaps settling for voluntary castration?

NJ

NJ - OM is still coaching, this season the 8-9 age group. My DS is playing this season for a different club, based 2 hours away from OM. Hopefully for all concerned our paths will not cross again.

No interest in a lawsuit. I am trying to stay focused on my M.

TIM

Tired:

Plan B can be appropriate for you. (Sorry, Tyk.)

Plan B can BE used on an unresponsive spouse that has decided that they are perfectly content in the status quo, and that THEY do not have to do anything different.

And the spouse that isn't content, has exhausted all efforts and methods to try to get the M growing again.

You go to Plan B to change the status Quo and to SHOW the unresponsive spouse the consequenses of thier cake-eating.

Have you thought about the Marriage Builders weekend?

Your WW might not be willing to talk to someone else, but hearing about MB and its concepts, since it is coming from someone ELSE, may be all that she needs to realize there IS a problem.

This stuff is tough. And when they are unrepentant, its even tougher. You appear to be trying the right things however.

LG

LG,

Thanks. I frankly don't know very much about Plan B and do plan to educate myself asap.

I have tried to Plan A her to death but she has refused to complete the EN survey (she says MB concepts are "stupid") so I am only guessing as to what her ENs are.

As I mentioned in a previous post I often feel that she has very low self-esteem and that one of her needs is admiration/attention from other men which, in addition to being a deal-breaker for me now, is not a need that I can meet.

As far as I know I have eliminated the few LBs that she cited as contributing to her prior unhappiness.

So that leaves me at a bit of a loss as to how to respond to her seemingly apathetic attitude and unwillingness to demonstrate any real effort or committment to righting our ship.

TIM

Tired:

You stated this:


Why not?

How much admiration do you give her? Are you sincere? Do you believe that she thinks that you "say that because your my H and have to?" Only admire something that she doesn't feel is important?

My BS had low self-esteem. And my A didn't help it any. I wasn't getting much admiration from her during my A as you may well guess. Since D-day? Since learning about MB? We have learned how, by changing habits and behaviors, to provide each other admiration that has sent her self-esteem to places that she never knew before.

As for attention from others? Oh boy, I LIKED that. I KNEW it was inappropriate, and I was laying out the feelers for something. Someone finally bit, and off we went. I know that boundary NOW. I can be "charming" to others, but I know where the boundaries are, and I guard them. Because if I don't, I can slide to the same dark places I went before. BTW, I am alot less "charming" to women I might be more "attacted" too. That's a boundary. I HAVE to be careful. So does YOUR W.

You turn up the flame of "charming" or "flirting" to get more attention to yourself, and then, you get others who want to "push it" and suddenly, the attention is inappropriate. Your WW doesn't sense this cycle in herself. And THAT leaves her open to future A's.

So, how has YOUR admiration/attention been going?

What are the top ten things you like about your W?
When was the last time you told her, sincerely, that you liked that about HER?

That's a start.

LG

LG,

Sorry for the confusion. I was being literal when I said that I cannot meet my W's need for admiration/attention from "other men". I have told her consistently, regularly and sincerely the things that I love about her, how attracted I am to her, how I think she is always the most beautiful woman in the room, etc.

She has sometimes responded by saying things like "thanks, but you are biased" or "you have to feel that way". And I think what makes her feel good is knowing that she can get that from strangers who don't "have to feel that way."

Interestingly, her toxic BF once told me "when a woman reaches her 40's she needs to know that other men (i.e. not her H) find her attractive." I think my W has always felt that way.

She also is very comfortable acting in an overtly sexual, suggestive way when out with friends and acquaintances (incl me) but when in our home she is the complete opposite. Maybe it's me but I find that strange.

In the past that kind of behavior was just a LB for me but since d-day I have refused to tolerate it.

I guess in general the private/public nature of her sexuality is a mystery to me, one that has been moreso since learning some of the details of her A.

As for your point about whether she is open to other A's because of her need to charm and flirt, I would agree. Whether she realizes this is an open question.

TIM

Tim, I was like your wife when I was married the 1st time, in my early-mid 20s. My ex H complimented me all of the time, and it got to the point where it didnt matter - he was "biased", as you say. I needed to feel desired by people outside of my marriage - it gave me a boost of confidence that my own husband could not give me. I could never pinpoint what it was about me that made me like that. Maybe because I grew up with a father who didnt pay much attention to my mom or I, maybe it was because I was date raped in high school and it screwed up my wiring, maybe it was because I was insecure, even though I felt I was anything but. I dont really know the real answer to that question.

I do know that I got over it, though. Now, in my 30s, I could really give a whoop about what other men think about my looks or my personality. I crave that attention from my 2nd husband and no one else. Maybe I just grew up, maybe I grew in general. Maybe I am now with the right man and I wasnt before. Still un answered question.

I wish I could say that your wife will outgrow it, but at her age, it doesnt seem like its an immaturity phase. Maybe there are just other aspects to your marriage that she needs, and your admiriation just isnt one of them. Have you tried to reveal what her ENs really are? Maybe if those were met to her standards, the rest would fall in line? She would feel more secure and have less of a need to have this met from the outside?

I hope you get it worked out.

Thanks Gdar.

I've only been able to guess about my W's ENs as she will not complete the questionaire. I've been trying to meet them all equally (all except SF which she says is definitely not a need, though apparently it was when met by OM) as much as possible.

Why any of us are the way we are is a mystery right? I am always careful not to venture into the realm of trying to "figure out" my W when we talk. I don't think that she knows what makes her tick so how could I? And more to the point, it's not all that relevant except to the extent that it allows her to establish her own boundaries so that she doesn't head down a slippery slope to another A.

My biggest problem at the moment is trying to sort out whether I will ever get from her what she has given to others. Whether it's admiration (I get none) and affection (I get little) to strangers in bars to exciting/passionate SF like OM got. I struggle with whether it would be rational to give up on the M now when it is of the same quality (in terms of her meeting my EN) as it was pre-A, however poor that may be. How would that be fair to my kids? On the other hand I worry if I will ever "get over it" knowing that she withholds that side of herself from me.

TIM,
I know EXACTLY what you mean. I brought up this issue to my wife and she admitted the truth in it. She is an attractive woman, but she has low self-esteem. I told her that I was worried that one issue that led to her affair was that she derived happiness and confidence from how other people thought of her. I could tell her every day how beautiful she was or how smart and capable she was, but some guy hitting on her could make her happier than anything I could do. How do you compete with that? How do you rebuild trust and security when that issue is staring you in the face?

It is a serious character issue that may require intensive individual counseling to resolve. If you find a resolution to this please let me know. In the meantime, every single instance in which my wife mentions to me how she is happy because her boss praised her or her coworkers complimented her triggers my fears about the viability of our marriage. Its natural to be happy when you are complimented or praised, but I worry that is the MAIN source of her happiness. I can't compete with that.

Andrew,

Thanks. I will let you know if I solve this mystery but I doubt that a solution is possible in my case. It would require a degree of introspection and openness that my W is not able to achieve in my presence. She did spend approx an hour on the phone with toxic BF following our non-conversation of a couple days ago. I suspect she is completely open with her friend, just not with me.

As for admiration from others being the sole source of one's happiness, it is a bit sad. Unlike you, my W has not admitted that there is any truth to this - in fact she denies it vehemently and maintains that she doesn't care what anyone thinks of her. As they say, though, actions speak a bit louder.

I don't know if I am going through a phase but I feel a need to do something to shake things up a bit. Having discovered that she had a long chat with her friend is just adding to my anger. This is the pattern that existed for years pre d-day. My W would feign contentment with our M but would secretly talk (or would only talk when I was not present)with toxic friends while carrying on the A.

Of course if I were to tell her that I know that she had turned again to her friend rather than talking with me she would know that I checked her cell phone and would go ballistic. I really don't care about her reaction except that it is a distraction and would further prevent any progress.

Thoughts on where to go from here would be welcome.

TIM

From your original post a month ago:
I think it is quite possible that their meeting for SF tells more about OM than your W's desires. She may have been getting some other important EN met through the A.

LousyGolfer brought up about admiration. I echo his advice to deeply consider if that is an EN that you are not meeting well. (If so, it might improve your sex life.) This was probably one of my ex-WWs most important ENs and one that I did not do a great job of meeting. Before reading HN/HN I would never have imagined that it could be a raging need of hers.

Your W's comments about your being biased seem like an indirect request for sincerity or believability. Something about your remarks isn't quite hitting home. I suggest analyzing your performance (via her response) in your attempts to meet this need.

Here are some generic suggestions you might try:
* Work on complimenting her in public (i.e., to others, including to the kids) when she is and when she is not present.
(Some of this will get back to her. Some won't but you don't care. You are more likely to be objective and sincere when you speak to others vs. giving an 'expected' compliment privately to her.)
* Identify something new that you respect about her and have not told her before.
(I didn't say this would be easy. She just had an A recently and that colors your pereceptions I'm sure. But this is your marriage. Work hard at it.)
* Report back to her nice things that others say about her out of her presence.
* [Not so sure about this one] make a comparison to another woman. "Did you see the dress X was wearing. I was so glad you were on my arm." (All right, that was lame, but think about it.)
* When you give a compliment and she resists saying you are biased be ready to discuss the point. Be serious and convince her that you are serious. If you don't debate the issue, she'll believe you weren't.
* As everyone knows you get negative points for being insincere. What can you do to positively yet truthfully form a stronger, better opinion of her in your own mind?

BTW, Kudos for being willing to consider that the 20 year old events may have not been fully resolved. Takes a real man to admit when he did wrong.

- WG

Being a woman with a somewhat similar low self-esteem, I can tell you that if you're trying to get her to believe you actually respect and admire her, you'd pay more attention to her brain than her body. Ask her for her advice. Talk to her about subjects you know she's interested in, and actually listen to her. Give her the benefit of the doubt that she has worthwhile knowledge and opinions and value.

And show that you trust her to be able to take care of things. Ask her to plan your next vacation. Ask her to arrange for a carpenter for a project. Let her pick her next car. Let her know you trust her to be just as capable as you.

That's where self-esteem is built, IMO.

Hey TiM quite a long time between posts, hope things are ok?

Your sitch is similar to mine in a number of ways and I wish I had the answers too! The low self-esteem, needing attention from others etc. Have a peek at my thread if you get a chance. But I'm pretty sure my W still has contact and that makes things v hard.

cat - My W is going to see her friend 2moro. She looks after a 'secret' cell for her to contact OM. How am I supposed to pay WW compliments when I know this is going on?

Your lips still move, right?

(Sorry -- couldn't resist. )

I wouldn't praise her unwavering fidelity. But there must be some characteristics and behaviors that are independent of this issue. You should still be able to honestly recognize and appreciate those. WSs don't become 100% evil.

- WG

Yeah lol TBH I do pay her lots of compliments about how she looks etc. but as TiM has said, when others say the same thing, she takes notice. This is how A started, by OM paying compliments and it snowballed from there.