I agree if you put this qualifier on it.




IMHO, this is not accurate. There are now gay marriages...are they perfect too? Free will brings us together...and hopefully we live in a manner which honors God.


Not all marriages are meant to be.

Grow up????

Wow.

I agree 200% with this!! Their actions ARE premeditated and foreseeable. They KNOW that adultery is wrong. There is no denying this. And they are 100% responsible for their choice.

The best way I know to define FOG is to call it an extreme form of MENTAL MASTURBATION where one alters reality in their minds in order to justify the unjustifiable. They rationalize their filthy behavior by telling themselves they are entitled because of _________________. [fill in the blank]

This is a trait of most criminals, they have all manner of foggy rationalizations.

That is the definition of FOG as I know it, the bastardizing of reality to accommodate bad behavior.

you don't think criminals are foggy?

Mel, I don't think they really alter their thinking at all. They just use it as an excuse later on. I wasn't thinking straight...blah, blah, blah.

If they are thinking straight enough to lie about it...they are thinking clearly enough to not do it. They make a clear, conscious choice to act horribly. It is not reckless...and it is not negligent...it is an intentional act. IMHO, the Harley's have come up with the idea of the fog for two reasons...it helps explain the unexplainable and in some way lets the WS off the hook...just a smidge.

The reason I NEVER bought into the whole idea that "anyone" could have an affair is that there is no "under the influence" issue at play here. If I know that my actions are entirely wrong (as every WS does and that's why they hide it!) then I won't do it unless I am prepared to accept responsibility for what I have done.

I KNOW they aren't foggy. They are evil, mean spirited and conniving. But foggy, no....now realize I am talking "intentional" crimes here.

slipping in for my .02....


Kind of like the guy who robs the bank and writes the demand note on his checking account deposit slip. His INTENTION is to rob the bank. Using his own deposit slip shows his fogginess in perpetrating the crime.

Or he's just a dumb criminal.

But then again, I've read many dumb things that waywards do, thinking they're pulling something off well.

Foggy or dumb?

I vote for foggy. Cause even a smart criminal can do stupid/foggy stuff and get caught.

well, having locked these idiots up, I can tell you the vast majority are stupid. They are not foggy. They are just too stupid to do a crime right.

I "sorta" believe in the fog and it's out of Dr Harley's reasoning that an affair is an addiction.

The fog is like that of being intoxicated. Affairs are addicting, Dr H says it himself. Agreed, someone ultimately has to agree to drop their panties as few folks just trip and fall on a penis.

But....

If needs are not being met, and someone appears to meet that need, it's a lot like that fruity drink that was created where the alcohol is difficult to taste. The wayward keeps drinking it and soon, they are intoxicated and don't know how it happened.

Does that mean they are not responsible?

Heck no! We are talking about adults and adults are to put into place protections for their marriages.

But I do believe the fog is real. It's the intoxication of the affair and due to that, the wayward is UNWILLING to examine the reality of the affair because she wants her fix of endorphins, feel good chemicals in the brain, etc.

It "appears" irrational to us who believe we would not consider the choice. Yet it also "seems" rational to those who choose it. It feels good, it gets a need met, etc.

The person who is cheating is ignoring what they are doing to the marriage, they are not looking deeply at the affair partner, etc. The narrow vision, the fantasy, etc, all contribute to what appears to those on the outside as the wayward being foggy.

I think waywards are foggy, but I also believe they CHOOSE to be foggy.

How is that for straddling the fence, LOL?

Oh, I believe they are ALL evil when they are engaged in evil activity. But the thinking of an evil person is usually PURE DE FOG and riddled with nutty rationalizations. See, I believe this is all related. They are all the same except the crimes are different.

For example, I consider the following to be WAYWARDS:

adulterers
criminals
addicts

These people have a wayward mind that is fraught with rationalizations and a skewed reality that accommodates their crimes.

They have the SAME mentality even though the crime is different. I can tell you honestly that my mentality as a practicing alcoholic was no different from any wayward or any criminal. Was I evil? YES.

So foggy is just a way to say stupid without it being an LB

We don't allow the kids to use the word stupid in our home.

Mel, I have locked up criminals that have stabbed pregnant women dozens of times. I have witnessed horrors that most people will never experience. I can tell you first hand, the mentality of an alcoholic and criminal are most definitely not the same. Were you willing to butcher and murder in order to meet your needs? No...although you may have killed someone in a negligent fashion.

Would you be willing to stand over a 90 year old woman and shoot her to get her money? No. Would you rape a child to get what you wanted? No.

You may have done some terrible things when you were drinking...but you were not by any stretch of the imagination akin to a molester or murderer.

There is a reason that crimes are graded differently....and when push comes to shove, it is a measure of a person "evilness."

Hey MEDC, I was just thinking about your "take" on fogginess and can't help but wonder if you feel this way because of (a) your law enforcement background and (b) because you never recovered your marriage, thus never "saw" the "fog" dissipate?

Even before I found MB, I kept telling people that the man my husband had become was like a stranger to me. It was like I couldn't reach the places in him that I'd always been able to reach before. He just "wasn't there". He has even said since that it felt like he was in a "trance" or a "dreamworld". None of it felt real to him, yet he "knew" he was doing wrong and what he was doing was evil... totally against God's will for his life.

My husband is back 100%. That man that he was for a short time is gone.

Fog may not be the best definition but I think it's a pretty good description by my own experience-- meaning the "foggy" waywardness and the since remarkable recovery "defogging".

I NEVER saw the fog dissapate because it didn't exist.

I saw someone stop being evil...start making decisions that were morally based instead on based on evil.

I have seen criminals change their ways...but not by the lifting of a fog....but by the removal of evil in their lives.

And for the record, I did recover my marriage. It was great until she started acting evil again.

MEDC, I do agree with you that there are different grades of evil. I could not have killed someone, but there were other things I did that were EVIL, just not as destructive. I relate very much to the wacked out thinking that comes with wrongdoing.

Jerry,

I don’t think it really matters how the affair ended. I think the most important factor in truly successful recovered marriages is the actions of the WS after the affair ends. The reason I feel very good about my chances of recovery is that my ww very quickly understood the extent of the damage she had caused. I feel good about working hard at recovering my marriage because I see her equally engaged and working equally hard. She very quickly ( within 5-6 weeks after d-day ) understood the pain she had caused and owned the responsibility for her affair. She also readily committed to doing the hard work of working on herself through IC and working on our marriage via MB and a marriage friendly MC.

I struggle accepting that many of the marriages on this site are truly recovered. It seems that too many BS’s are willing to accept a less than totally committed WS just to avoid separation and divorce. I understand the importance of Plan A and Plan B in getting a WS to the point of being willing to attempt recovery. I also understand that it may take a period of time before the WS is able to escape the fog and commit 100% to the marriage and to fully realize and own the depth of their betrayal. But, without that 100% commitment from the WS, the marriage will never recover. In hindsight, I probably did a lot of things right to save my marriage. But, if my ww had never fully committed to recovery, including radical honesty concerning the what, when, where, and why of her affair, including feeling and exhibiting true remorse for her actions, and including taking the lead in doing a lot of hard work to make herself a better wife and mother, we would not be truly headed towards recovery today.

In response to the polygraph question, if that’s what you need don’t hesitate to ask for it. I would suspect that if you are thinking about it that you have legitimate questions about just how honest she has been with you. You can never reach true recovery until all of the cards are on the table.

I DID see the fog dissapate because it DID exist.

You say tomato, I say tomahto. :RollieEyes:

IMHO, the WS doesn't hide it because they know its wrong, they hide it because they know most everyone else will think its wrong. The WS thinks its right. To me, that is what is at the heart of "foggy" thinking.

Right, other people just don't "understand." They LIE to themselves using wacky rationalizations. Instead of changing their own behavior, they alter their view of reality in order to justify it. This is why exposure is so effective, when they see that their rationalizations SHOCK normal people, it causes them to question their thinking and/or avoid normal ppl. This is why waywards seek out other foghorns. They don't want to be around ppl who know they are nuts.

I don't think this is true.