After 4 years of being together and 2 years of marriage, my wife just told me that she doesn't love me like she used to, and she doesn't love me as much as I deserve.
It is safe to say that she has been my everything for 4 years, and we now have 1 child who is 20 months old. I'm only 24 and heartbroken that what I thought was a looking to be a long loving marriage and family.. is crumbling beneath my feet.
The conversation we had, had grim overtones of the marriage ending.
She feels that she never really loved me as much as I love her, and that her heart still kind of belongs to her ex. (who she is still friends with)
I have, from the start, been very trusting and giving with my wife in regards to her relationships with other men; and men she has had past relationships with. I honestly get along great with any ex's she still talks to.
I don't want to give up on my love for her. She doesn't want to hurt me anymore than she already has.
she told me that if she could, she would be with her ex. Even though he has a wife and 2 children now too. She knows thats not possible right now, but that part of her still wishes it could happen.
We are going to work on it, and if nothing has improved by the holidays we are going to start counseling... but can i honestly make her love me and not care for this guy?
Is it possible to salvage what love she may still have for me?
Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas?

I advise you to treat it like an affair. Read Dr. Harley on infidelity, Plan A, and Plan B. Maybe (very likely) it is an EA at least, but the plans will help you discover if there is an A and begin re-attatching her to you.

Sorry, but she's having an affair.

Hire a PI to follow her and to get contact information on the man she's seeing and all the important people in his life. Get the evidence and the contact information, and then expose the affair without telling her you're going to. Let everyone else pressure the two of them to quit the affair. Tell her if she doesn't stop, you'll petition the courts to grant you custody of your baby. Then have her write a No Contact letter to him if she wants to stay married.

PT,

I'm very sorry to see you come here in pain, but rest assured there is no better place to be if you need help with your marriage.

I second Neak's suggestion to treat this like an affair.
In fact, you may wish to get this thread moved to the "General Questions II" board in the infidelity section. It gets a lot more traffic and you'll get suggestions quickly. Just click the "Notify" button and ask the mods to move your thread.

but can i honestly make her love me and not care for this guy?
You cannot make anyone else do anything. You can only control yourself.

Is it possible to salvage what love she may still have for me?
It is very possible. There are no guarantees, of course, but if you follow the plans you have a very good chance of building a strong, happy, and healthy marriage with your wife.

Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas?
As Neak said, treat this as an affair situation:
1. Begin snooping for evidence of an affair. An affair need not be physical, it can be emotional too. Look for chat histories, emails (check the sent folder and deleted items box too), and cellphone records. Don't tell her you're doing this. Don't tell her if/when you've found something. Just figure out the lay of the land.
2. Read up on Love Busters (LBs) and *eliminate* them completely. One Love Buster can undo a lot of deposits into her Love Bank.
3. Figure out what her top Emotional Needs (ENs) are and begin to meet the top 3 or so.

Don't hound her, beg, wheedle, implore, or cry. Be strong, upbeat, vibrant and attractive. Don't let her walk all over you. If she's doing something you find unacceptable, let her know how you feel (calmly). If she tells you you're too controlling, change the subject: "I'm sorry you feel that way. Would you like spaghetti for dinner?"

She basically just told you the truth. You just weren't hearing it. She is having an affair with her ex.
Watch Harley's video on affairs if you need any more prodding.

When I first got together with my fiance - I felt like I would never love him as much as he loved me and so I broke it off with him - so that he could find someone who would love him as much as he deserved.

As soon as he was gone and the love and support he was providing me was gone with it - I realised just how much he had been giving me and just how much I had been taking that for granted.

We got back together but this time round, I had my eyes wide open about how much he was giving me and I fell very deeply in love with him.

Perhaps give her a lot of space and make her realise how important to her you are?

BUT can I say if she is not over her ex and still talks to him - thats going to make it verrry difficult for her to truly love you as completely as a wife should love her husband.

So, it's been over a month since I posted. We agreed to try and let the holidays come and pass for our daughter until anything is done. Although we've been getting along well, having it on the back-burner has been tough, I've been becoming increasingly paranoid, suspicious, and bleak about the situation.
We spoke today about where exactly the situation stands, and although she was reluctant to do so, she confessed to me that she doesn't feel like i am her husband anymore. That I am more just a roommate and father to her child. Her outlook on our future didn't seem to go past the start of the year even. I suppose this is the beginning of the end, she seems pretty determined and convinced that it cannot be fixed. That she cannot love me like she did.
I feel so numb now, so detached from what I'd built my life and future around for over 4 years. She still agreed that doing worksheets on emotional needs and such is probably a good idea. So we'll see if that leads anywhere i guess.


Thank you all for your input, comments, and suggestions. I'll try to update here as I can.

Did you follow our advice and snoop to see if she is in contact with him? If she is, you need to expose it to his wife, and your families. You don't have to just accept this! Fight for your marriage.

That is tough. You said:

"I have, from the start, been very trusting and giving with my wife in regards to her relationships with other men; and men she has had past relationships with. I honestly get along great with any ex's she still talks to."

I have to say that is a big red flag. you are basically telling her from the beginning that it was fine to not be exclusive emotionally with you.

I also agree with the guy who said you need to fight for your marriage. Be strong. This does not mean be paranoid or violent.

This is a disturbing trend I've noticed too: women leaving their husbands. It hits close to home for me because I'm struggling with wanting to leave my husband too. A big thing for me is that I can't respect my husband sometimes. Your wife may feel that way about you too. I feel like I can tell my husband over and over " i don't want to be here, i don't love you, and i want to leave' and he replies 'ok, as long as you stay'. which i do. but i have total upper-hand in the relationship, and i hate it. i hate feeling like he wold crumble without me.

you need to challenge her. what do you have to offer her? do you know? figure it out, be confident, let her know, and if she still lets you go, you can know you did everything you could as a man, and for your child.

So i'm back finally. Things are worse than ever.

I have to admit that being willing and giving enough to allow her to see ex's and male friends was probably the biggest mistake of our marriage. and it stings more than anything that such a degree of trust was broken. And it really irritates and disheartens me that this kind of trust it almost always a bad thing.

I found out yesterday that there was more to the development of her feelings for her ex than she'd told me. I've had my suspicions that there was more to it than she was telling me. I did snoop and check up on her. Cell phone records didnt match her recent calls and messages. The activity of how often she was talking to him was abnormally high. Red flags were everywhere.

It turns out that he had confessed to her that it was a mistake that he'd let her go. And they had talked out all the problems they had broken it off for.
Yes i've been naive, possibly deserving, of this deception. But it doesnt make it right. He even had the nerve to try and be my friend the whole time.

She refuses to stop seeing him. She says she doesnt want to fix things. She says she cant let me back into her heart.
If she's going to refuse to stop seeing him, there is no plan A. Exposing this affair to his and our families, wont do any good for my wife other than push her further away from me. She's told me more than once that she's ready to accept the consequences for her choices.

And all of this [censored] is all over just a lack of intimacy.

I have been very mellow and calm whenever we've talked about our situation and problems so far. Up until yesterday when I pretty much snapped. It was probably the angriest i have ever been with her. I even threatened to take our child from her. That she didnt deserve to see her, because the selfish actions she and he(exbf) have taken.

I don't even want to take the child from her. That isn't fair to our child. Her mother loves her more than anything, more than me or him. I just want her to give a crap about what she has, and work to fix the commitment she made.

She agree'd a couple hours after this fight that we would start counceling at the start of the year. I cant help but feel it is out of her fear that she has to in order to legally show she made an effort, when custody of our child comes up. And it seems she has made up her mind and will not budge on what she wants, so I am unsure of wether or not it will do any good.

"you need to challenge her. what do you have to offer her? do you know? figure it out, be confident, let her know, and if she still lets you go, you can know you did everything you could as a man, and for your child."

Midnovember, i have read your other posts, and i feel you can relate to my wife. The one big difference being there is no affair in what I read of your situation. I wish somehow she could see as you have, that love is a choice and can be made, unmade, or built. I do know what I offer her, but she see's everything i offer her in her ex. I dont feel that is a sufficient way out. The last thing I want is to let her go without trying everything I can, and have her gone forever.

I may be obsessive, possibly dependent. But i'd commited myself to her and our marriage 100%... to have it shattered and thrown away. but i'm not here to vent or rant.

I suppose more updates are to come. I wish you hadnt all been right that she had more of an affair than i had hoped.

How old are you and your wife?

I suggest you ask for this thread to be moved over to GQII and you start posting daily.

All is not lost.

The first thing you have to do is to understand that this -
- is pure, unadorned bull-hockey.

If you have read anything here, you would see by now that almost no one - maybe 0.5% - ever gets their marriage back without exposing the affair to everyone who can have an influence on the two people.

You're just afraid that she'll get mad and leave you.

Well, guess what? She's leaving you anyway! At least if you expose, you have somewhat of a chance to keep her.

Quit being chicken and man up.

We are both 24.

I overheard them on a phone conversation wrap up with "i love you too... bye sweetie."

So that confirms the extent of it. She has redeemed herself partially, giving her the benefit of trust in her honesty, she told me he did try and kiss her but she wouldn't let him because they are both married. And somehow I managed to salvage that conversation calmly without a fight, to both our suprise. And she is on the path of feeling the hurt she's inflicting on both of their marriages. She feels guilt seeing his wife when our kids play together. She also is working on getting new work so she is no longer in his employ... we may be on the path to a "plan A" after all, without having to expose it to everyone (risking pushing her further away from me). Exposing it is still an option, and may still need to be done though. We shall see...

I suppose it's update time... it's been a long time.

The new year came, good, and bad with it.
To fill in the gaps:

In the two weeks prior to my last post, things were tenuous between WS and myself. Things continued without any change while I knew of the affair and she would do nothing about it. On new years she invited me to go to a party OM's sister (one of my wife's oldest friends) was throwing for new years. Of course OM was there being her brother. WS and OM both knew that I didn't want to even look at him. My wife knew I was having a tough time, and shortly before I had to leave the party for work she came and asked if I was ok, told me that I shouldn't push it too far but that she still loved me, and actually kissed me. And it was her behind the kiss, not like the emotionless ones in the prior 4 months.

About 4 days later she unexpectedly came out of her bedroom when i thought she was asleep and found me checking on the key logger I'd put on her laptop. It had found the solid proof I needed. And of course she did not take it well. She flipped her lid yelling about how I have no right to spy on her like that. And that there is nothing that can make it the right thing to do. I'm still not convinced I did anything wrong, but I was apologetic to try and salvage the situation. Any feeling she had on new years was out the window. After an hour of fighting she went back to bed still mad, I got on my computer and vented to a blank page. I saved the file to remind myself of how I felt.

The next day after the scope of the situation had sunk in for both of us... we agreed we needed to stop hurting each other. We worked towards her not talking to him about anything besides work. And only doing so as little as possible each day, and telling me what they had talked about. (there is a lot of trust I'm granting her at this point, yes I know there is still a HUGE possibility i may just be opening myself up to enabling the affair) And I walked her through the steps of taking the key logger off her computer with the promise there wont be another on there.

Things were worse now than ever before, but maybe there was a glimmer of progress in it.

A few weeks went by and nothing changed, we both approached communication more gingerly and with more concern for each other this time around. But any approach i'd made to seeing where we stood just felt like pressuring her. She continued to let me know (even begrudgingly at times) what they'd talked about that day and what work she was doing for him and when. She knew I wasnt comfortable with them seeing each other, but thought this situation was ideal so that she could do the work she wished to do while hurting me as little as possible. It worked ok to an extent.

A couple weeks later she told me that she'd disconnected herself from OM and myself. That it was just too much heartache to care for either of us. Not good news, but it could have been worse.

About 10 days ago we were talking and she told me she doesn't want to fix things, she just wants to be done. It was pretty much the end all of relationship conversations. We both went to our appointments we were both already over an hour late for. She called me a couple times while I was away, asking if I was coming home that night and when. I was as to be expected more distant than I'd ever been with her. I told her I needed time and I may not even come home. After contacting the couple of friends i had that would understand my reasons for not going home, and finding them unable to be there for me, i grudgingly went home. When I got home she was still awake, I went to the cupboard, got out a large bottle of alcohol and sat down at my computer. This upset her greatly, apparently she had wanted to talk more about the situation and was feeling more compassionate this time, but seeing my resort to alcohol threw that out the window. I don't even drink semi-regularly. In the past 7 years I have drank for recreation 2 times. But I'd gotten to the point that night that i wanted to forget and drink myself into sedation for the rest of the night, and the feelings of isolation when having no friends or family around to support me in my darkest hour... well... I'm sure you can imagine, if not justify. She threatened to not let me watch my daughter the following day if I were to keep drinking. The majority of the alcohol went down the sink drain.

I'd given up, something i never thought I'd do. I was done trying my damnedest to get some effort out of my wife to save a marriage I felt held some merit. I was willing to say, it's time for both of us to be apart. We talked about it being the end and living separately. (just days before our daughters second birthday) Apparently she wasn't prepared to reap the wheat she'd sewn, she asked if it had to be over now. I told her I never wanted it to be.

I knew we were both hurting, even if it was for different reasons. I suggested a compromise, a separation while making some official and specific effort to repair our marriage. And if nothing else it would help ease our toddler into the situation looming bleakly in front of us. The only option in this case was for me to stay at my parents in the area, and she would stay in our apartment. We would split the nights of the week for our daughter to stay with my wife and to stay with myself. She loves my parents so if things went well she would be used to staying with them also. (something we'd been trying to get her used to since my wife was ready to let go of her) Perhaps distance would make the heart grow fonder, as the phrase says.

It is my hope that my wife is starting to realize just how stubborn she really is, and that she can't continue to let it keep her from things that could do her some good. She's always been against the idea of counseling because she's always believed that only she can fix the problems in her head. Everyone has been telling her that is where she needs to go for help, which fuels the engine of her stubborn behavior. When she is even encouraged to do something that may go against what she thinks, it pushes her further towards what she wants, and away from the good advice. (this is exactly why I've had to tread so carefully. She is a VERY hard woman to deal with, but I'm crazy about her, even against my best judgment.)

She kept up with not wanting us to break right now. Which redeems her slightly, that she cares enough for me that she wants to at least have me around for now. Our lease is up in may, and we will need to decide on a new place or places to live. We agreed that would be a good time for it to be over if nothing can save it. If things still aren't better we would live separately.

She is now willing to participate in some actual efforts to heal our marriage. Which is one step forward, even though we're already at our last step backward.

1. Expose the affair to everyone and their pets. You have to do it. You've already proven to her that her anger will cause you to cower and cave. If you want to recover this, you're going to have to face the fury and expose. Otherwise her fairy tale dream continues with no dose of reality.

2. Don't leave your home. I can't believe you actually suggested this yourself. If you leave your home, it could be construed as abandonment when it comes time to work out custody issues in the event of a divorce. So again, don't leave your home.

Dude, you're being played for a fool. She's telling you what you want to hear and then going back to divorce talk to keep you docile and frozen in place. She's either stringing you along so she can have a consequence free affair or she's getting her ducks in a row to hose you royally in a divorce. You're doing absolutely, positively pig-snot nothing to protect yourself, your kids and your marriage. No one on this site so far has gotten you to deviate from your course of self destruction. Why did you come here, so you could write a online diary? If so, blog about your impending divorce. If you want help, engage the people on this site and take control of your life while you still have a chance!

T

If you want to save your marriage, you will listen and heed the advice on this thread. You will read all of Dr. Harley's articles on Love Busters, Emotional Needs, etc. You will get and read "Surviving an Affair". Of all the relationship books out there, Harley is the one who GETS it. And I've never seen a plan for mending a marriage after an affair that has nearly the chance of working as the one he outlines. So decide now: Do you want this marriage or do you not? If not, you can continue to be a patsy and let her walk all over you. If you want this marriage, you need to educate yourself. Post her often--MORE that once a month. Make a plan and stick to it. At the very least it should consist of:

1. Exposing the affair. OM and your wife don't live together day to day so all they do is build up their Love Bank--there's no chance of depleting it. Bringing in the reality of exposure will help deplete it. Expose to her family, your family, the OMs wife, their work, etc.

2. Go Plan A. Plan A is what happens after exposure. You are making an effort to build up your Love Bank. But don't be a doormat. She owes you total transparency even in Plan A.

3. If Plan A doesn't get you back on track, go to Plan B. Plan B. Read up on Plan B here and be prepared to carry it out if she won't give up OM. You have to help her realize what she is giving up if she goes down this road.

They might not be sleeping together now, but they will pretty soon. She's having an emotional affair right now and it's every bit as damaging as a physical one.