I had a great Alanon meeting tonight, everyone shared really intersting things about what they learned about themselves. But I had a new experience after the meeting. A lot of the newer members there are in similar situations to mine, with hostile partners who blame their behavior on them. I just could't say, I'm separating. I used to feel so good being able to tell the newcomers that it is possible to be happy and married at the same time. That it's possible to detach from your spouse with love, and live a life *full* of joy, even if their spouse is still drinking. I am glad that we have other longtimers that have been able to make it work.

Hi ears,

I see you are on late. I don't have any words of wisdom but wanted to let you know I'm online if you wanna chat or anything.

I was literally driving to pick up D18 from church and thinking, when I saw an ambulance rush by, 'maybe it'll be him, and he'll be dead' and then proceeded to think about how much easier life would be.

This is from cat's post. I've been feeling a lot lately, guilt over the times in my marriage where I wished H would be hurt, injured, out of the game, not here to hurt me. When I have the ability to defend myself. So many more options than the ones I had thought of. I am so sad about those times. I wish I could go back, and hold him, and tell him that I love him, but that he is hurting me, and I need him to stop if I'm going to continue to love him here, in the same house. To stop now, and stop for good. I told him in words, but my actions did not. I kept driving home when I just wanted to drive into a wall. So many times.

I remember Dr. H talks about how his W broke up with him 6 times when they were dating. I didn't break up with H when he hurt me emotionally. It didn't register to me that this was so unnacceptable that it was a red flag. I was very disrespectful to him, too, yelling, pushing.

Jayne, I feel like I'm letting you down with the keylogger. I don't feel like H has been hostile to me for some reasons that can only be found on the computer. I believe that he is hostile to me from a lack of respect that has always been here. I believe I am acknowledging what I've needed to acknowledge. And it's not about me, but it hurts. At home and in MC before, I minimized what he told me, because it hurt so bad. But in the MC office this time around, and a home, it is loud and clear. Things he has said before, like he thinks my thinking is bizarre and I'm mentally disturbed. I acknowledge that this is how he sees me.

I wish I could go back, and hold him, and tell him that I love him, but that he is hurting me, and I need him to stop if I'm going to continue to love him here, in the same house.

I wish that I could back, and hold myself, and say it's okay to not know what to do. You can choose your attitude, and do something or be somewhere kind to yourself today. You can use progressive boundary enforcement to defend your boundaries. You are safe, today and every day.


My sister is in the hospital, again for severe pain and high fever. She's on antibiotics. She's had multiple surgeries the last 3 years to correct issues that they found before in previous visits that caused severe abdominal infections. She was born with a birth defect, called congenital adrenal hyperplasia that's related to this as well. I'm praying for her today. Finding it a little hard to concentrate.

Ears, I think you have to be on guard not to take too much of this on yourself. I think you are a basically good person whose husband does not treat her well.

Still, I think there may be a kernel of truth in what you say about not respecting your husband. Of course, he has to earn that respect. But you also have to be willing to give credit where credit is due. And be on guard not to disrespect him unintentionally. My wife did that last night.

We saw a commercial about people who like to participate in barbecue contests. They have smokers and grills that are decorated like pigs and cows and such. They drive all over the country to cook and compete. I said "I could see myself doing that". Mrs. Hold said "no, you aren't a good enough cook." I looked at her and said "ouch". She asid "sorry, I know that you might find the lifestyle appealing but you aren't into high level cooking and these guys really work at it." I replied "I made a comment about personality and you made it into a discussion of competence". And she looked at me like there was nothing wrong in what she said. She couldn't see that her comment was hurtful. She felt she was stating objective truth so it shouldn't bother me.

So be on the lookout for subtle messages of disrespect.

I'll say a prayer for your sister.

Hold, what I meant was "I believe that he is hostile to me from his lack of respect for me that has been there off and on from the start." I can't change the past, but I can do differently going forward. Listen and repeat so I understand what is triggering me and think through how I want to respond with integrity.

I admire and respect a lot about H, the man is. I don't respect some of his behaviors. But they don't define who he is.


We had a similar "ouch" moment last soccer season. H said that he'd like to coach soccer next year. I said something like, "that's not for you." I meant, because you're out of town a lot, expecting me to fill in, and it was hard enough to get the two kids both to games that start sometimes at the same time and sometimes at different times. A responsibility to coach on top of that, trying to find folks to get the other kid to the game I was not coaching, would have been overwhelming.

A big ouch on both sides, to take H's comment about something that would make him happy, and make it about me like that. He did get upset, thought that I meant he's not good with kids. I tried to backtrack and explain, but I have "foot in mouth disease" and the more I explained, the more flustered I felt. I think I'm doing better with that, today. Listen and repeat and talk more slowly.

Still not sure what's going on with my sister. They have her on IV antibiotics, and she's repsonding, but why? I talked to my mom last night, she's a nurse, and she says they're not being proactive to figure out why this keeps happening. Just treating the presenting symptom, the infection and fever. They didn't identify the cause last year when she was in before they sent her home, either. My sister isn't mad about that, though. She just wants to go home already LOL.

H came back, wow, the man that I married again. I can't believe how good it feels to be around him. He woke up early, took the dog out, came back to bed to snuggle. His flight was delayed last night, so we were late coming in from the airport, and I feel back to sleep on his shoulder, and woke up, him still there. It felt so good, spending this kind of time together. I don't know the why or the how long. I am trying to just enjoy the moment while it is here, but my mind is just all over the place.

Maybe it's that you finally started the separation talk, and it jolted him. Like I did yesterday with my H.

Can your sister find a diagnostician, like Dr. House?

Maybe it's that you finally started the separation talk, and it jolted him. Like I did yesterday with my H.

I don't really understand that. He was angry enought to threaten to leave many times. Even to the point that he told the kids one time a few years back. Wouldn't his unhappiness be a more powerful motivator to him than mine? I just caught myself, trying to figure it out myself instead of just asking him.


Can your sister find a diagnostician, like Dr. House?

Shes a big House fan, I'll suggest that to her when I visit this evening. Thanks for the idea!

You're right, you should ask him. But for your question, it's one thing for HIM to want it, but when the object of his leaving wants it, it's suddenly completely different. It's a human nature thing, I think, that you're removing your availability from him and therefore, he questions everything.

I see how that could make sense, Cat. That sounds like the Love Bank to me. When it's empty, you don't want to be with the person, anyway, so why try something different? But if there is something there, then okay, there is motivaton to preserve it.

It interesting to think of that, because I think it's so much an inside job, too, acting from our own personal integrity.

I look forward to asking H his thoughts. I don't think that he is interested in a more vocal, equal, partner. But I may be mistaken about that.

I don't want to sound mean, but it's also possible that he still doesn't want you, but the fact that it's you who's taking the step instead of him just bruises his ego.

ears - I haven't followed your thread. I'm sorry. I just caught the end of this and was wondering how your sister would feel about a consultation with an Infectious Disease specialist.

Cat, I hear you that this is a possibility. He's told me hundreds of times, though, "Your needs aren't being met. I understand that. Why do you keep telling me this? I'm not changing. Just leave already."

Thanks for helping me to look at this, cat. I see where I really don't understand a lot of this. I have been working for a long time to seek to understand. But these kinds of topics usually shut me down when i'm talking with H. I'm kind of surprised that I feel safe now discussing this with you. Instead of getting defensive or feeling worn down.

Soolee, I haven't heard of that, but I will ask about it. My mom's a nurse, and often things that I haven't heard of, she knows what they are and who to contact. Also, my sister is at a really good hospital down here, and so I think it would be liely that she would have something like that available here.

Yes. Do ask your mother. Chronic fevers (and again I admit to not reading up on your thread so don't know if they're chronic) are not normal and could indicate any number of things. An ID doctor would do different kinds of blood work that could point to things like Lyme disease, rheumatoid arthritis, etc., (for instance) that other doctors might miss.

She might need a certain combination of antibiotics, and the cultures that he or she would take would typically be tested to see which antibiotics the culture is sensitive to.

About H's ouch last regarding soccer...

He expressed a wish, a desire...you don't know if he really wanted it enough to re-arrange, not travel, do what was needed...or discover it was mostly wishful, not real.

Learn to accept what others say and not govern them. If you said, "I want to be a soccer coach next year" and he said "that's not for you", you'd know that ouch...you were sharing a new thought, which had more thoughts...sharing, not committing or doing right then. Judgment shuts down sharing. You did that. I think you get flustered when you then explain because you know this...you're sensing you shut down just what you craved most.

Just as you were shut down when you first learned to share this way.

So the cycle continues. Doesn't say a thing about doing or not doing...you're not being shut out of fantasy--you're being included in thoughts.

Justifications are signals...we aren't in balance, aren't being honest with ourselves...check to see if any of the foot in mouth comes from this imbalance. When you're justifying your statement, you want to prove something, change something in another...because you're assuming something.

Another thing I learned about myself in doing just what you did...was because I spent so much time worrying, playing fantasy in the future, I took fantasies seriously; my automatic response was exactly like yours...which isn't bringing reality, protecting our marriage from our partners' poor decisions...it is about us, where we spend our time, and taking the future seriously...which is ridiculous, really.

It's self-deception. And our partners pay the price. Which is why we also feel like we pay a really high price staying with our partners. You assumed he was serious, would act on it and fail. All in the span of two heartbeats.

Hear the heartbeats...share the thoughts...good to know.

Did you feel any resentment in the flash before your response...like "oh sure, he'd stop travelling for something he wanted to do, just not for me"?

I'm curious. Would have been mine, btw. My constant measuring, judging, picking apart...tore myself to shreds...and definitely shredded my marriage. Telling the boys, "You can be anything you want to be" and in the very next breath to my DH, "Oh, you can't be serious." Telling people who they are in really sneaky ways...defining them...from love, of course.

Not true. From my fear. Don't be foolish and don't be timid. I told my loved ones who not to be...which really was the same as telling them who they were.

Which means I wanted them to tell me who I was (only in the way I wanted and when I wanted).

Just another reminder...we are powerful. Check our intent..."instinct to protect" isn't what it seems.

LA

Soolee

I am going over this even and will mention the Infectious Disease Specialist and the Diagnostician, and let you know if that is available here. Sounds promising. They may have them already at the hospital and already seen her and I'm just not aware of it.

LA


I didn't know what he meant, until he clarified. Since I made my decision, it is a LOT LOT LOT easier to let go of the response. At the time, I felt overwhelmed, drowning, from the list of expectations H would throw on me. I get it, I choose what I take on. At the time, saying no felt like a missed oppurtunity to meet ENs. To get the ship back on course. You know, "If only I do better, then he'll stop treating me like this." I fully accept today that I have no power to get the ship back on course. I am choosing to own my 50%, and let go of the response.


If you said, "I want to be a soccer coach next year" and he said "that's not for you", you'd know that ouch...you were sharing a new thought, which had more thoughts...sharing, not committing or doing right then. Judgment shuts down sharing. You did that.

I totally get that. I made amends at the time. It felt like too late. I needed to let go of the response. I am working to make amends for my role in that cycle in the present, by making different choices.


I think you get flustered when you then explain because you know this...you're sensing you shut down just what you craved most.

Yes, at the time, I realized, this is what I'd been hoping for, and then I didn't do my part, to enjoy that moment. I wasn't in the present right then. I am working on that today.


Justifications are signals...we aren't in balance, aren't being honest with ourselves...check to see if any of the foot in mouth comes from this imbalance. When you're justifying your statement, you want to prove something, change something in another...because you're assuming something.

LA, I am hearing that you saw my foot-in-mounth attempt to explain as justification.


Another thing I learned about myself in doing just what you did...was because I spent so much time worrying, playing fantasy in the future, I took fantasies seriously; my automatic response was exactlys like yours...which isn't bringing reality, protecting our marriage from our partners' poor decisions...it is about us, where we spend our time, and taking the future seriously...which is ridiculous, really.

I am still processing this. I didn't think that I took it in as a future reality. More like considering what would the consequences of this be?



It's self-deception. And our partners pay the price. Which is why we also feel like we pay a really high price staying with our partners. You assumed he was serious, would act on it and fail. All in the span of two heartbeats.

Hear the heartbeats...share the thoughts...good to know.

Did you feel any resentment in the flash before your response...like "oh sure, he'd stop travelling for something he wanted to do, just not for me"?

I'm curious. Would have been mine, btw. My constant measuring, judging, picking apart...tore myself to shreds...and definitely shredded my marriage. Telling the boys, "You can be anything you want to be" and in the very next breath to my DH, "Oh, you can't be serious." Telling people who they are in really sneaky ways...defining them...from love, of course.

No, I didn't think he would have stopped travelling. I felt concern that he may decide to hand me something else. I responded from that concern. Like how he said that DD12 has a weight issue, and put that on my shoulders to fix. I had choices. I could have declined to take that onto my shoulders. Sometimes I did. That had its own risk of consequences. Like animosity and hostility. Until I acquiesced. "Are we friends again now?" "How 'bout now?" "Now?"

LBing myself, telling myself that I wasn't really Plan Aing unless it made him happy. And 1 withdrawal wiped out 100 deposits.

My decision to own. Which meant that I had the power to decide differently. We are new every day. I am willing to risk taking on those consequences today. It takes what it takes. I can handle it.

Jayne got me thinking about my Plan A. Reread and it sank in that Plan A, making a good lasting impression, is not about doing whatever you think it takes to make someone happy at any cost. It is about negotiating to get your needs met without AOs, SDs, and DJs. I like my Plan A now. I like the lasting impression that I'm giving myself, that H and I can work together as equals.