Hi all

I would greatly appreciate your help. I initially posted the whole (long) story at :
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2134155#Post2134155

The summary is :
a) Recently had a real hard time in my life
b) At the same time, discovered some really inappropriate email from my wife's boss to my wife ('when I think about you something in my pants gets stiff' if I remember the wording) which was in response to some teasing / leading on in the email from my wife
c) Since then she has had lunch with a guy from work and hid it from me to stop me from 'getting upset'
d) My wife agrees the email from boss got out of hand (I wrote to boss and her at work address to ask them to respect fact she has a husband and child in future communications)
e) Wife insists she needs the freedom to have male friends and that nothing would ever happen - she only has them as friends. Doesn't see any issue with that.

I have asked her not to have contact with males from her workplace outside work hours unnecessarily (by unnecessary I mean Face Book discussions which have happened, hand-holding (her boss and her held hands after a party - which occurred before the abovementioned emails).

We have had several heated and some reasonable discussions about this challenge facing us. We are now seeing a counsellor and jointly feel we will get something very valuable from marriage builders. We intend to learn about and implement meeting EN's and the POJA, among the other concepts and foundations.

I guess my question is around what freedom my wife is entitled to expect from a trusting and reasonable husband (which is something I hope to become again). Is it wrong for me to expect no out-of-hours contact with males from her work because I fear it might (even accidentally) lead to something else ? Is this lack of trust, or this kind of 'control' over something she would prefer to do, more damaging, in that she might feel less trusted and valued and therefore even worse things happen ?

I don't know how many of the answers depend on the person and their nature and behaviour. I realise the above situation reads like my wife is either having or likely to have an affair at work but I don't really believe that to be the case, because of the person I know she is. I realise that sounds naive, but there are a number of reasons why I don't feel she would have done this to me and our daughter, which I can't easily cover without making this post even longer !

Regardless, my wife's work is very important to her and satisfies a lot of her EN's - most probably in areas where I should have better understood and satisfied them to start with. Her bond with our daughter is very strong also, which leaves us a challenge to work out how we redevelop the time needed for each other (15 hours a week will be a challenge initially!)

A positive is we have both recognised we were not previously working on having a great marriage together, we were simply surviving in a 'good or ok' marriage. It didn't take much for the 'good or ok' to tip into 'verging on disaster'

Any thoughts or advice are much appreciated. I am sure we both have a lot to learn from your experiences.

Many thanks in advance
Herb

I can't say there is a line in the sand but since it obviously bothers you, it is obviously a problem. Rather than simply say she can or cannot do this or that, read SAA, HNHN, seek counseling and POJA what is appropriate and what is not.

Time with DD can be part of your 15.5 hours.

The problem with male friendships is that it appears your wife does not have a good sense of personal boundaries so, from what you describe, she is at high risk of an A.

On the other hand, if you spend 15.5 hours a week with her, she won't have time to have an affair nor is she likely to want to. You would be amazed at how that 15.5 hours can turn your marriage around.

Yes, this is quite naive. I don't need to hear your reasons...

Your wife has already:
* had a personal vs. professional lunch with a man and lied about it to you
* crossed a physical affection line (holding hands with a boss)
* engaged in sexual banter

Rolling snowballs don't reverse course and go uphill. She is already gambling with your marriage. As Proverbs says: "you can't take fire in your lap and not get burned". You should be very, very concerned.

She says she just wants to have male friends, but you should bring up that lying about lunch and the leading-on emails. These are not consistent. Both You and the marriage relationship are not being respected. Friends of the marriage don't conspire against it.

Part of her responsibility in the POJA agreement would be responding to your concerns. You can't POJA and disregard the other's point of view. So how serious is she? Is her pleasure more important than putting your mind at ease?

You can't control another. You can try, but it's disrespectful of their personhood and won't work anyway. But you don't have to support or encourage behavior that attacks your marriage.

- WG

your wife is the problem here. For starters, she needs to leave that workplace.
If you have a copy of the email and it is a large employer, contact the HR department. If it is a small employer, consider contacting an attorney.
all cases, send a cop of the email to the boss' wife.

Yes, you are being reasonable.

But yes, you are also being naive.

Herb

upfront I'll tell you I am a FWW, yes I had an affair, committed adultery. Been there unfortunately.

Your wife is really at risk. Its not your fault that this is the case... both of you need to accept you allowed the M to get to this place.

HOWEVER you are both in a great position to not go down the path that so many of us here have done. If you could encourage your W to come here and speak to us, those who messed up their M maybe she could see that her thoughts of

"that nothing would ever happen - she only has them as friends. Doesn't see any issue with that."

is exactly what so many of us FWW thought as well.

It is NOT harmless to hold another man's hand in the context you describe and it is NOT harmless to have discussions with men by any method on non work matters where she would not be comfortable having you sit in on them. Especially if they talk about 'her M' and relationships.

A very simple rule is that ANY situation in which your wife or husband could not be comfortably involved is probably not good for your M.

It is very hard to have friends of the opposite sex without very strict self imposed boundaries.
I know when someone hugs me in a brotherly way and when they don't. So does about every woman. I suspect men know the difference between a KISS and a brotherly kiss on the cheek or a hug as well.

lets not kid ourselves here ... your wife is playing with your M ... she is playing with fire ... even if she cannot see that right now and probably she is honest in that she doesn't... she cannot see the danger ... maybe if you reverse the situation ... select an attractive women you both know from work or whatever and ask her if it was ok for you to hold her hand after going out to dinner with this 'friend'... or to email her when you feel like it in private etc etc ...

And I am not saying your wife is looking for an affair, I'm saying she is vulnerable to outside influences and these may lead into a place she really wouldn't like to go.

Remember ... affairs need not only be physical at the start.... emotional affairs are so easy to fall into where there are stressful situations in a M.

I feel you are right to have real concern about your wife's attitude on this matter and YES please please get the Harley's involved..... we'd all really would hate to see you both here trying to get through an affair.

I hope you both can get the M onto a good path.

all the best

AW

Send a copy of the email from the boss to HR with a complaint. Wife should leave that job immediately, preferably today.

Having opposite sex friends is the behavior of a single person. She's married. She needs to start acting married. That means no more lunch with a guy other than you. No confiding in a guy. And no toleration of email or phone calls from any other guy that has a sexual connotation.

I suspect she's already engaged in an EA. She certainly has sloppy boundaries and is engaging in massive IB. I'm dealing with the same issue myself now, so I recognize this quite clearly.

She needs to give up all contact with other men. However, you can't "force" her - all you can do is explain the effect this has on you. She has the choice to continue these relationships and knowingly hurt you and your M or not. And, if she lays the "you're a control freak because you're trying to guilt me into something" line on you know that is not being a control freak as long as you've simply expressed your opinion/emotion and not forbid her from doing anything.

Get HNHN, Lovebusters and SAA. Read - both of you.

Wife has shown that she can not have male friends.

You must expose the boss'W/OMW.

Expose WW at work.

WW must have NC with these OM. She may of not had sex with them yet. Though she may not have laid these OM yet. She has started laying the ground work to do.

This is why WW needs to find a new job.

File a complaint with Human Resources.

Hi everyone

Thank you so much for your advice.

Earlier tonight I shared this thread with my wife. She accepted what I had posted but said it gave a particularly one-sided view (which it does, mine) and she felt she would have given a similar response if she had read my comments. My point was I tried to remove emotion and stick to what I know to be facts. Her point is I did not mention the repeated promises she has given me not to flirt or develop unreasonable relationships in future.

After that, we argued (as usual) about what reasonable behaviour and terminology means (her point to me being given access to her email passwords is I might misconstrue her use of sign off using "Love, {name}" as something unreasonable, when it is something she does naturally.

We have consistently proven we will never be able to discuss these issues without a lot of help, so at least we are in the right place, along with the counselling we are undertaking.

I understand the need to consider exposing the issue at her workplace and to his wife. There are a number of reasons I don't want to do this, partly because of the nature of the workplace (won't logically deal with the issue and will create a lot more angst), and partly because of the existing mental instability of his partner.

I'm not sure if this thread will help or hinder proceedings but at least it is in the open, which is more than we have had in the past.

I'll keep you updated on our progress, which hopefully will be 'progress' !

Many thanks
H

I doubt that hearing her side would have significantly altered the advice you got. Her promises are worth nothing until you see action to back it up.

While she is still in the same situation as before (and with a mentally unstable other boss, besides???) you can expect that she will behave the same way as she has before. She may cut back on her dangerous behavior for a while, but in the same environment she will always fall back into what is comfortable for her.

The password thing is a big also. She's already told you she signs everything 'love', (which is EXTREMELY bad for "professonal" correspondance, but that's another issue), so if that's all there is, she should have no problem showing you. I mean, she's told you about it, so there's no reason NOT to show....unless that's not all there is.

I know I repeat myself, but your wife needs:

1. NC from Mr. Salami
2. A new job

and she needs them yesterday.


Her willingness to protect the marriage (or not) will tell you volumes.

Thanks Neek

We obviously have a way to go in order to agree on a proper resolution to all this. I fully understand your points made ... and hope to play a part in fixing all this

Thanks again
H

There is a lot of tremendous advice over the last three or 4 posts. They are right - your wife is walking a very, very slippery slope with your marriage and quite frankly is not respecting you or the marriage right now.

If there is anything I have learned in my situation, anytime someone starts talking marriage problems with someone of the opposite sex who is NOT A FAN OF THE MARRIAGE, the skids are greased for an affair.

My wife is in the midst of an EA/PA with someone who logically should be totally off limits. However, in hindsight, I should have seen the signs much sooner and put an end to it but, I didn't and the fallout from the affair to both of our extended families has been devastating. It looks like you still have time to stop the runaway train before it is too late.

The only way to fix this is for your wife to leave that job, notify the betrayed wife and for your wife to start acting professional instead of like the office "bimbo."

That is a really easy habit to change, if your spouse wants to put your mind at ease and protect your marriage from interlopers. Really!

Even if she wasn't trying to consciously or subconsciously communicate extra-friendliness to the opposite sex, your wife is clueless if she doesn't see how that habit of language could be misunderstood by male non-relatives.

Somewhere around here there was a recent post (maybe by Bob Pure) on "the first 10 seconds". The point is that it is the little initial steps that start the process rolling towards a possible affair. Having really sharp boundaries and sticking to them is a much safer way to live.

- WG

...and because your wife would get pissed and she doesn't want to be viewed as the office ho.

Directly from the WW hand book: "We can not tell the OMW because"
Followed with any reason the WW can get the BH to believe.

Expose, now, do it!

"I might misconstrue her use of sign off using "Love, {name}" as something unreasonable, when it is something she does naturally."

This is baloney, one hundred percent. If it makes you uncomfortable she should not use "Love" to close a work email.

I have never received or sent or seen any business email that closed with love.

Another red flag. Again direct from the WW hand book: I can't show you my emails or give you my passwords because they might upset you even though they are innocent.

Those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing. What is your WW hiding.

Thank you again everyone.

It is clear to me now, if it wasn't already (!), that exposing the Emotional Affair to all affected is important.

After we argued last night and my wife mentioned the fact I might be upset by the use of 'Love' in emails etc. it worried me enough to look at her work email this morning (which is saved on the home computer). A quick search found an email from her boss last February after a couple of exchanges with kisses and hugs on the end of email, where he eventually signed off "Love your work (and other stuff)! xx "

That was enough for me to understand there is and has been a connection between them since at least February (and realistically probably for a number of years while they have worked together). There have been jokes about being 'work husband' and 'work wife' which used to be funny, but now seem hurtful.

We argued by phone this morning when I raised it, but I have written to my wife to suggest we deal with the issue with the counsellor and take at least 2 actions :

1. Tell his wife what has been going on (I think she has some idea as she sent my wife a strange text message a while ago, which no longer seems so strange !) This guy and his wife are already in a volatile relationship but I have accepted that is not my problem, and raising this is important for all concerned

2. My wife needs to seek employment elsewhere to remove herself from this situation.

Her reaction on the phone has already been "I'm not giving up my work" so I guess we now go through the process and see where we end up.

Thank you again everyone for the clarity and support.

Hopefully my wife will respond to this positively, if she can see I am trying to save our marriage by taking some steps in the right direction.

All the best
H

Start reading up on Plan A and Plan B, since that is the most likely route you are headed, with a 100% chance of a happy ending for you, and a very good chance of a happily ever after for both of you.

You're starting to understand your sitch, and that is good. You can fight effectively once you understand.

I would bet the house that she is already screwing him or doing a bit more than dic-tation.

She should NEVER return to that workplace.

Call a lawyer to see what you options are.

Get tough.

Thanks Neak and medc - Plan A and Plan B is my next stop. medc I hope you are not right (I guess I would be mad not to hope that !) - the situation would also be very difficult for them to find the time and place to have a physical affair. Hopefully viewing the emails in isolation makes the issue seem worse than it is ... but reading into the comments he has made to my wife is certainly hugely disturbing, because I can't picture what sort of relationship is needed before a guy feels comfortable saying these things in a work email. Ah well, the work lies ahead one way or the other ...

Cheers
H

I agree with Medc - she should quit the job tomorrow, never return, and establish total NC with the boss. You need to expose now to the boss' wife and HR at the company.