Hi all (sorry this * is * long )

I hope you can help with your point of view which I am very keen to hear.

A few months ago my father was facing a major illness and I tried to arrange some high care with attached accommodation for my mother (who is much younger). To cut a long story short, my wife of 11 years reacted very badly that I would consider moving my parents closer to us (they were 2 hours away, and one of my plans would have meant they were 20 mins away). I felt abandoned by what she said and how angry she was.

I won’t dwell on the ins and outs but Dad died a few weeks later, so the accommodation never became an actual issue. I feel I am dealing with the grief ok, but the issues at home since are really taking their toll.

I didn't behave very well on my return from burying my dad (sullen and withdrawn) and my wife and I had about a week of virtually ignoring each other. My wife eventually emailed me asking me to tell me what was wrong as we didn't appear to be able to talk. I replied (in hindsight probably quite unreasonably) with a list of things that annoyed me and how I felt hurt and abandoned by her in a difficult time. She wrote me a note asking if I wanted to seperate, from her work email. I replied saying this wasn't appropriate to discuss on company email and we would give it the attention it deserved when she got home. I then received an accidental reply from one of her friends at work, when I realised she had shared our private correspondence with someone at work.

After some heated discussion, we tried to find some common ground. I asked her to ensure my email was deleted from her email, and the email of anyone else she sent it to, as I found this a complete breach of our privacy.

A couple of weeks later she was working from home and I saw an email I suspected might have been about our issue. While she was away from the desk I opened the email and read it (not very excusable, I know, but I was pretty adamant to ensure my issues weren't being shared elsewhere, as I felt quite embarrassed and exposed).

The email wasn't about the issue at all, but was a string of email exchanges with her boss (who we have both known for over 15 years), which started around the time we were having major problems. It started with her inviting him to come and 'play with her' at her desk. He said something about loving it when she talks dirty and preparing his best underwear. To cut a long story short, the last email in the string was him saying to my wife when he thinks about her something in his pants "gets hard" (and she replied with a kind of double meaning 'don't leave me hanging; which she says was about the work issue also mentioned in the email. Anyway, the email exchange was full of flirtatious double meanings and really quite upsetting considering this is the workplace she has been for over 10 years, and has always maintained she is safe from inappropriate attention (my wife is gorgeous, and always looks amazing).

I think the disappointment relates to the fact this is obviously the sort of attention she wanted or encouraged. I assume similar things have happened over the past decade considering she thought nothing of this.

I realise people have dealt with far worse betrayal, but this really hurt because of the timing, the fact she had been so unsupportive, and that our relationship was in such a bad way she still had the motivation to participate in this inappropriate conversation(admittedly maybe the situation at home would have increased her motivation to find attention elsewhere).

When we discussed it she assured me the worst he had ever done was hold hands with her after a work party. This still made me fairly angry (because it takes 2 people’s hands to hold hands, rather than blame it on him solely) but I guess worse things have happened to people.

I wrote to both their work email addresses and explained I felt they had crossed a line, and should both remember my wife has a family (the boss also has a family but has major marital problems which he had previously shared with us, especially my wife, as part of their friendship).

He replied and said he was sorry I felt that way, but that it was 'purely and simply a bit of fun'. He guaranteed it would never happen again. My wife has apologised for hurting me, said she should have been more honest that this type of flirting was going on, and also said it would not happen again.

About 2 weeks ago she arranged a lunch with a guy at work which again I saw being organised in her email (still accessed on her home computer. I have tried to avoid wanting to read her private correspondence but I still felt this uncertainty about who she talks to and why). The guy at the lunch is someone who we again have both known for over 10 years, but has been known to be a little 'sleazy'. When I asked her who she had been to lunch with she deleted all the emails discussing the lunch, and said she had been to a meeting with this guy and someone else from work. I confronted her about this, and she said it was only because she thought it would upset me, and guaranteed it was just a friendly lunch with a friend.

She had chatted at night on Facebook with the same guy. As part of the discussion about the lunch, I asked her to commit to not developing online relationships after hours with males from her work as I felt it could be easily misconstrued by them. She replied that I often emailed my mother (who is grieving over the loss of my dad) and that I had no right to ask her not to have private conversations when I had private correspondence too. This really offended me that she drew such a comparison.

My wife has now changed her passwords to email and is careful that her email is not left open at her desk again. I think she should be allowed her privacy within reason, but because of what's happened, its difficult for me to maintain the trust that used to be there.

She used to enjoy the work functions and parties and now of course I am preoccupied with the 'holding hands' issue or what exactly it is that the males at her work expect from her. She now feels 'controlled' because of the erosion of my trust and the way it is making me feel/worry.

So I guess I am at a point where my wife says she is incredibly sorry, assures me nothing is going on, but would like me to trust her 100%. She has told me her work and the interactions there are still important to her and she needs to be trusted.

In contrast I can't get over a strong feeling of disappointment because all these recent issues are out of character for my wife but I think maybe it just feels like so many things happened at once I have blown things out of proportion.

I would appreciate a point of view on how I should be behaving, or how to put these disappointments in context so I can stop punishing myself and my wife. By the way, all the above events occurred over 2 months ago now.

So I guess my problem is I feel very hurt and betrayed and am having issues 'forgiving and forgetting'. I don't think I am in a right frame of mind to decide if I am being unreasonable or not. Breaking each of the above issues into smaller pieces, not one is worth ending an otherwise decent marriage over (we also have a daughter).

I suppose I am trying to work out whether that trust my wife seeks is deserved, and how I force myself to trust her when I still feel quite hurt. We have each tried to start working through the material on marriagebuilders.com but to be honest any amount of time together results in an argument at the moment.

Appreciate any clarification if you think there is something else I can do that will make this easier to manage. My main concern at this point is any effect on my daughter. Secondary is this seems like a waste of what was otherwise a good marriage till recently.

I am going to spend the next week trying to better understand the MarriageBuilder’s concepts to see if I can contribute something worthwhile using this framework as guidance, I hope.

Any and all thoughts are much appreciated.

Thank you
Herb

Welcome to MarriageBuilders, Herb...

First, I want to separate some issues with you...reasonable to see them from your perspective, rather chronologically related; can also be confusing.

First, you are grieving and it takes a long time for a parent at any age. Understand that you feel abandoned...may see it more easily in your partner's choices instead of inside yourself right now. Gets neon-highlighted outside of us.

You may feel really sensitive to rejection, which holds hands with abandonment.

Separately, deal with the facts of your marriage...I hear you saying you really do believe there is privacy in marriage...that work stuff is out of bounds...and there is no relationship that doesn't affect your marriage. So you checking her email was important...in defense of your marriage you are obligated to ascertain the truth.

Next, have you read Harley's books and articles on this website, regarding the four rules of marriage? Radical honesty is really important...no room for secrecy, which breaks down intimacy...feels like abandonment and rejection, btw.

When your spouse grieves, you can also feel abandoned. Many folks hate that helpless feeling where they are grieving your loss and not their own...happens a lot...feels like the partner is putting a ghost ahead of them in the marriage...and they aren't...just how we reason it out when we're feeling helpless, last place and fearful.

Our partners can also feel guilt for secret relief if they had conflict with the MIL or FIL previously--still hurting for you, not feeling it in themselves---especially if that conflict was their anger at the departed for how they treated you, growing up or while married...or how they were treated. Lots of sore and tender spots in us involving parents...always there, 'k?

And you didn't feel supported pre-passing in decisions about your father's care, location, etc.

When you withdraw it does mean you move away from your partner...you stop meeting ENs, may feel like a big LB, a shut out from your spouse's perspective...instead of deepening intimacy sharing our in our grieving process.

Not saying either of you did something wrong...explaining possibilities. By reading her email, you saw clearly your wife doesn't take extraordinary precautions for herself to protect marital boundaries. Something gelled in you...she has discounted what you have been concerned about...and yes, it's inappropriate and you're not crazy because of the long-term relationship, proximity and allowances, your wife may have a physical affair with this guy, an EA/PA or be on the verge of it.

Did you print out the emails? Share them with his wife. It's important...and this relationship may well be part of their marital discord, 'k? Relate what you've been told, about the hand-holding, your concern that they don't see this crossing marital boundaries and that this will continue.

Don't measure your pain against others'...you hurt from betrayal...from failed expectations, from losing your father, for discovering how far your wife goes to get her EN met for Admiration, Appreciation, Attention...see both in it...know your fear for her disregard for danger to your marriage, and how you are meeting her top ENs, or during crisis, how long she's gone with you meeting them.

You immediately identified to her what yours were...what annoys you...what you want...now look at what she was wanting. Was her response to separate shocking to you or expected?

Do you have friendships with members of the opposite sex where you go to lunch separately, share intimate details of your marriage, or allow the woman to share details of her marriage with you? It's a very unhealthy allowance for The Marriage...and if you don't share back, only listen to her intimate stuff, you're doing harm to her marriage.

Watch out for the boss's phrasing btw...not sorry for being inappropriate towards your wife, you and the marriage...sorry about your feelings. Don't go there, 'k? He's still dangerous to healthy boundaries. Be aware.

At MB, we choose to be not be friends of the marriage. You stand for the union, it's own boundaries, not dependent on you being an introvert "who would never do that" or not. Unhealthy boundaries translate to unhealthy, at-risk marriages. No matter what personality types are in the marriage.

Your wife is not safe from infidelity because "she's just not built like that." We can have one-sided A's in our heads, which become real ones later in our lives, because self-deception comes first.

Know that your wife will lie to you to avoid conflict. Again, a fact of her choices, not just your perception. She will deceive to keep you from feeling upset, suspicious, uncomfortable...she will lie and cross marital boundaries...and lying crosses the boundary of radical honesty.

So, she justifies her choices based on you. Be aware of that.

And see if you did that in your email to her...did you justify your feelings based on her?

Your request of her respecting your marital boundary about NOT developing any relationships with members of the opposite sex isn't about privacy...it's about secrets. Know the difference.

Are you following the rule of time?

Don't be offended she drew an irrational comparison...be offended for your marriage that she is making dangerous choices.

You'll read where the wayward spouse (WS) is in a fog...which begins with self-deceit...so we didn't THINK we were in a fog at all...seemed clear to us...and in hindsight, the comparison, justifications, rationale was ludicrous. Only in hindsight.

Here on MB, Gimble said "An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect." Learn that formula. Find out, too, in yourself, where you may be following it...again, we don't know the fog until we're out of it. Grieving is a high-risk time for lousy choices and self-deception.

Part of the process we feel childish, really wishful; fertile grounds for resentments in many forms, even against God, the screen door that refuses to close as we expect and the paperboy. Doesn't mean we're crazy...means we're grieving.

And you're grieving, too, loss of expectations, if you expected your wife to take extraordinary precautions for the marriage, share honestly, stay intimate...supportive, involved, focused and aware of your ENs, eliminate her LBs, and not do that which risks the marriage. Those are your own expectations...deal with them as your own...and then you take the EPs, share honestly, respectfully (no You statements, stick to "I" statements), ask what she sees as supportive (what you do may feel critical to her), get those 20 hours of UA in with her, and talk about your weaknesses, ENs and LBs.

Dr. Harley believes in transparency...she has all your passwords (to email, voicemail, cell, facebook, cell, etc.) and you to hers. You don't say or do anything you wouldn't say or do if your spouse were present. You put new boundaries around you and you hold yourself to them.

An act of respect and protection for The Marriage...even when you don't feel like respecting or protecting your partner.

100% trust is fantasy and it harms marriages...blind trust disrespects we are new everyday, choose our actions every day...and we change our choices, for better and for worse. Trust and verify...be aware, verify the truth separate from her truth, and understand you aren't controlling...your wife has chosen to not respect healthy marital boundaries and your marriage is at risk for infidelity and has already experienced.

How? When either of you put anyone ahead of your marriage, you are cheating it, aren't you? We can grieve and exclude, we can flirt and exclude, we can put escape and distraction ahead of ur marriage...all of them are choices. And we can make different ones.

Know your own. Do you hear her speak then listen and repeat, to verify you're hearing her correctly? Are you really listening to know or to fix, stop, judge or change her stuff?

She cannot rebuild your trust without transparency. She is actively choosing secrecy over proof of fidelity. Understand her choices, not you making her, 'k?

Be sure to inform his wife...don't miss that step. Three of the four of you know the truth...you're keeping the fourth in the dark. Don't do that.

Please do not forgive or forget...as long as the recognition for change, for marital boundary enforcements isn't there, don't forgive...hasn't been asked of you...no amends in play. Don't fall for her destructive reasoning...blocking you out of half her life (work) where she trounced on her marriage.

And his.

Are you punishing your wife?

Behave to your own code...if you have respect in your code, then speak and act respectfully...strive first to understand, then be understood. If you have honesty in your code, speak and act honestly. Choose not to trust her until she chooses to rebuild your trust through transparency. You can't take her word she has stopped lying to you. She acted to deceive and she lied by omission. Understand this now as her choices. She can choose differently...and you'll trust her again when she demonstrates through transparency she's holding herself to healthy marital boundaries.

This isn't all or nothing...stay or go. This is you grieving, becoming aware, having some really old suspicions confirmed...that she's willing to play a little fast and loose; disrespect, lie, and deceive to avoid conflict...and that she believes your email of your annoyances means you want to separate, to leave, to end the marriage.

Marital crisis. Get help. Call the Harleys for phone counseling...get the books...understand how to save your marriage rather than choose to end or not. You won't protect yourself from future infidelity by avoidance, either.

Show your DD how to take on adversity and not avoid...how we can connect through conflict and through commonality...and very much example how to grieve well, fully, all the stages, and the faith of acceptance at the end of it.

Keep in mind...if you did as you thought you had...forced yourself to trust her (blind trust), then you also betrayed yourself...so the forgiveness is for you, too...always a two-way street. Don't skip that part.

You're not alone.

LA

Thank you so much LA. It means a lot to me that someone has taken so much of their own time to try to put my issues in some form of context. Your reply was really helpful. I haven't read the books yet but I will definitely get them, and I am on a mission this week to properly absorb the Harley's guidance on this site, as I think I have looked for the answers in a disjointed and muddled way so far. Your comments really started to help make things gel.
Thank you again ... so very much.
Kind regards
H

I would recommend treating this situation as an affair - since it's at least one, if not two. Your wife is behaving like a classic unfaithful spouse, and trying to make you think it's all your fault.

You are not going to succeed in your marriage if she continues to work at the Place of Big Hard Things in Pants. If your marriage is going to recover, she MUST find other employment.

Probably she will not be willing to do that at this point. That would be one more very strong indication she is in an affair, if you still had any doubts after seeing the emails from Mr. Salami.

I would suggest moving this onto General Questions II, and receive very good help regarding the infidelity part of this. You have changes to make, I'm sure, but what she is doing is not your fault. You need to get some help making a plan, and then stick to it.

Welcome to MB.

Thanks for your thoughts Neak. Your story was an interesting read too !

My wife and I are going to counselling in conjunction with jointly trying to read up on the MB concepts. From what I can see, in over 10 years of marriage we have let a lot of important things slide. We were both far from doing everything right.

My wife assures me she hasn't had a physical affair. I don't think at this stage we are ready to agree on what she has at work as one or more emotional affairs, (while I guess that is my honest feeling about what they are, at least with what I can understand at present). I gather my wife's point of view is they will never become anything more, because she feels she could never let that happen. I suppose conversely my fear is that they could lay the foundation for something bad to happen in future.

To understand my share of the responsibility for why things have got this way, I have to accept I have not recognised or fulfilled many of my wife's emotional needs in the past. Her workplace has become a source of challenge, satisfaction, comaraderie, social interaction etc and I guess this could have contributed to a feeling of being wanted and necessary - possibly a lot stronger than I have created at home.

The true test lies ahead for both of us to turn this into a positive experience that our marriage benefits from, I guess. While I wasn't sure I wanted to bother previously, reading the strength and resolution of some of the people on this site has given me some heart

My wife has previously made the comment she still needs the freedom to have friendships at work, including friendships with males. In the past that would not have been an issue for me to accept, now I think we at least can jointly approach such things with an understanding that things can escalate out of control, depending on what the definition of friendship is.

I suppose (hope) we will come to understand more as we read through the MB concepts. I hope too we will learn to understand each other's points of view, but move towards the concept of inter-dependence rather than 2 lots of independence

Thanks for the welcome - I look forward to learning more. (including how to move this to General Questions II!)

All the best
H

Herb,
While your wife may not have had a Physical Affair (PA), the EA which she did have is just as hurtful and harmful to you and your marriage.

My husband also was a person that hated people that had affairs, and lying was one of the worst things a person could do and he did both, for about a year. Ommission of facts is the same as lying.

He also said, in the beginning, immediately after DDay1 that he and the OW, who was a co-worker, were 'Just Friends' and all the sexual comments back and forth, lunches together, phone calls were "Just Joking", that they were "Just Friends" that it would have NEVER gone any further.

Since DDay1, 6 months ago, with him now fog-free, he admits that what he had was an EA with the OW. And he now says that he doesn't know if it would have gone any further had I not found out about it. He also now admits that that what he had WAS an affair and now knows how harmful it was/is to our marriage.... Well Dah!!! It takes the WS a while to come out of the fog and truly understand what their actions have done to the marriage and you.

Your email to the OM sounds exactly like mine to my H's OW. Her response was along those lines too. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt anyone, it was just joking,.....blah, blah, blah....
all the while she was continuing to flirt with my H at work, talk to him all the time, etc. She didn't care then and doesn't care now what her actions do to the marriage.

Where I messed up was sending another email that threaten to expose her to HR. I should not have treaten, I should have done it. She has since moved on to another company and is trying to contact my H again, this after H sent her a NC letter telling her NO CONTACT EVER. I'm sitting here at work now, wondering if today will be the day that she tries to contact him again.... it's a constant worry right now.

NO CONTACT with the OP is so important. NO CONTACT means not working together any longer. It means just that....NO CONTACT whatso ever.

Continue to check up on your W. What she is doing is wrong and she has no right to privacy in the marriage. Privacy is what helped her do this. It's what gave her a sense of security to be able to do it. I still police my H and he knows it. I have access to all email, cell, etc. Being totally transparent it the only way.

Herb,
I also recommend you getting a key logger installed on her computer. This way you can see everything that goes on and will know if she is not being totally open and honest with you. You'll know the contant of all emails between her and anyone else.

She does not have any right to privacy. There is nothing that she is doing at work or else that should be a secret from you!
Jo

Hi JoJo422

Your situation is very much aligned with mine I guess. At the height of our arguments, when I said what went on was akin to sexual harrassment, my wife basically said I was being ridiculous. So I asked how she thought the CEO of the organisation would view it if I sent the email on to them ... she was very upset I would consider threatening her position at work. Similar to your HR idea I guess. It seemed to put the situation in perspective when you try to see it from an impartial 'professional' view.

There's a whole long story involved with the way this relationship at her work has developed, but as we have both known the other person for a long time, and he has what could only be described as a poisonous and disastrous relationship, a bunch of people have been dragged into his world.

This whole thing has been very difficult to make an assessment about. We've been married so long, I would say both of us are 'flirtatious' in the strictest sense, ie. at parties we will compliment other people on appearance, make suggestive remarks (with all partners present), hug/kiss people hello/goodbye (with all partners present) etc. If this same guy had said the things he said in my presence at a party, I probably would have laughed (if I had assumed it was light-hearted and there was no intent to follow through with the 'revelation')

The issue that has been hard for me to understand is this is uncharacteristic behaviour for my wife and not at all how she would behave in front of me (as in, she definitely flirts, but she would never say to a guy at a party 'come over here and play with me' in front of me). So I guess I am trying to say I am no Saint, neither is she, but the context of this thing is so 'out there' I can't get a grip. And knowing the other party's situation is unstable makes the risks more troubling.

Anyway, in the spirit of openness and trying to move forward I am sharing the fact I have posted on here with my wife (while we both read through the website) and we are going to counselling.

Hopefully we will get some obvious next steps soon. It's a difficult time - thanks so much for your thoughts

Many thanks
H

Herb,
My H and I have also been married a long time, 18 years. He had also been a huge flirt with other women where for the most part I am not. If I'm going to flirt with anyone, it's my H. I have always told him that the way he behavied with other woman was disrespectful to me, that he gave others the impression that I was not important to him. Look where we are now...

I have always been a firm believer that male/female business relationships should be just that. Business, strickly business..... with no personal information exchanged, nor any flirting or sexual bantor. It is not appropriate unless both parties are single.

In most of the book's that I have read regarding EA's, they all state that if you are doing something that you would not do in front of your spouse, mother, father, sister, brother, etc then it's WRONG!! If you are saying things to a person of the opposite sex that you would not say to them with your spouse present or that you hide from your spouse then it's wrong!!

Do I remember correctly that your W was upset/mad that you read her 'private' emails? If so, this should be a huge to you. If it's really NOTHING and doesn't mean anything, why wouldn't she tell you about it??? Why didn;t she come home that day and every day that something when on with him and say "Guess what Boss said to me today?" Why didn't she share her sexual conversation that she was having with her boss with you??

For the same reason my H never told me that he was carrying on sexually with the OW, the emails, the fact that they were talking on the cell after hours, that he was going to lunch alone with her. Because, even though it took him months to admit it to me and maybe himself, he KNEW what he was doing was wrong!! You don't share your work and email play thing with your spouse....

The difference between my situation and yours is that my H was giving me after so I checked his email one weekend when he was out of town with our son thinking I wasn't really going to find anything, I was just making sure. WEll I was SOOOO wrong.

After reading all the emails back and forth dating back almost a year, I called him on his cell and asked him WTF was going on with him and OW...... He was 2 hours away and his first thought was that I was going to pack and leave before he could get home.

Herb....this kind of behavior from both of you, more so from her since it appears that she has taken it even further and stepped way over the line and then kept ir secret, is dangerous to your marriage. Sexual comments, bantor, etc should be keep at home where they belong.
Jo

As you're building your new, improved marriage, both of you will need to abandon your flirting behaviors. Your flirting and sexual banter need to be saved up for each other.

You need to reach the point where you would NOT be ok with a man talking about being aroused at your wife, even in front of you, and no matter how joking he said he was.

My husband was a good man prior to his affair, and had promised me much the same sort of thing. He was always honest with me, and I trusted him. Even without the dreadful boundaries your wife has been showing, he made a quick slide from 'friendly lunches' to hops in the sack and and endless stream of lies.

Having been there myself, I would spare you that if possible.

I'm really glad you posted over on GQ.