Hello, 1st day here, first post, glad to finally find a place to vent, I have a big problem, let me start from the beginning.
I met my wife, T, after years of bad, abusive relationships, T was married, strike one, two and three, in my book, however, after a month or so of talking, we made love. She packed her bags, moved in and was divorced within a month, her husband remarried a mere 2 months later, further proving what T was saying was true, they didn't love eachother anymore. T was the best thing to happen to me, level headed, smart, and above all, not abusive. She poured into me how her previous relationships had all ended badly, and, that she wanted to stop the cycle. I poured into her about how I had been beaten, put in the hospital, cheated on, and ultimately just drug through the dirt, she even witnessed a vicious encounter with one of my exes that landed me in the emergency room, and out of work for a couple of months.
Everything was working out incredibly, I am a singer, and, my band had been traveling extensively, T was there by my side the whole time, a first for me, most of my previous relationships were not as supportive of the band as T was. After time, T began to grow a jealous side, and feared I would cheat on her, let me point out that I have never cheated, never, I believe in true honesty, and would leave a woman if a new interest ever came along.
I did not like seeing T hurt like that, we had been together for a year, were not stopping a pregnancy if one were to happen, another first in my book, and I believed then, as I believe now, that I could spend the rest of my life with this incredible woman, so, I proposed, a little earlier than I wanted, but, I still felt confident on the road we were about to travel together.
We were married, happy, and soon, T became pregnant, we were both happy about the pregnancy. My son, A, opened up my eyes to life, never before had I felt a love like the love for my child, T is an incredible mother, breast fed for a little over a year, something I am still so proud of to this day, she wasn't a fan of it, but, kept it up as long as she could. The band was still in full swing, T holds a support manager position at a local retail store, I work in the automotive department in the same store, she makes more than I do, and we BOTH agree that it would make more sense for me to go to part time and take on daddy duty, and for her to stay on full time. We have bought a new home, with a makeshift studio in the backyard for the band.
Here, after 4 years of marriage, is where I start to notice problems, T is more and more withdrawn from me, and, when I voice my opinion of this, she assures me everything is ok.
I notice T spending more and more time with my best friend, J, no big deal at first, he is very close to both of us, lived with us when we first got together, hell, when we were married, J was T's maid of honor.
I come in during a practice session after J has went inside to get some ice for his drink, I walk in on J leaving the bathroom, and looking guilty as hell, as my wife is in the bathroom, again, I am assured that what I saw with my own two eyes is wrong, nothing happened, about a month later, I see them openly flirting with each other at a friendly get together. I call J, knowing something is up, hoping he will stay true to our friendship, only to get more assurances that this would never happen. J is in a relationship, and tells me that our friendship is too important to him, and his commitment to his child and lady would not allow such behavior.
T opens up to me that she needs space, things are not working, we start marriage councilling on my suggestion. I move into my parents, J still hangs out with me and my family, he is like a brother to me and my brother, and like a child to my parents.
I take on our councilling full force, wanting to save the marriage, T, on the other hand, is stand offish, and expresses that it will not work, she simply doesn't love me anymore.
I take on some individual sessions, to help me cope with the inevitable divorce on the horizon, and suddenly, T takes a complete 180 degree change, completely opens up and admits my suspicions were true, she had sex with J, right around our 6 year anniversary, I am furious, J had still been coming over, letting me cry on his shoulder, telling me i deserved better, all while he was sleeping with my wife.
This is not the first time that this has happened to me, another previous relationship almost ended after infidelity with a close friend. Only to end later through infidelity, this time with a stranger.
T takes intensive dramatic changes for the better, we spend hundreds on marriage books, she is communicating with me, she is doing the things that mean most to me, if any of you have read "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman, you know what I mean, physical touch, and words of affirmation, are my primary languages, and, she is speaking them well. We continue councilling, and things are great, I move back in.
T gets another promotion in work, a big one, she has to go away for training, one month gone, two weeks home, two weeks gone. A serious test for us, I am still struggling with trust issues. This promotion also means that I will have to find a new place to work, T cannot be my boss, money issues, side taking, so on, and so forth. I enroll in college, T is making more than she was when we were both working.
Training is horrible, my trust issues did not help. But, thankfully, it is over, she is home, and things can start to get back to normal. We take an expensive romantic getaway together, we had a show on T's 30th birthday, I felt horrible about it, been on the books for a year, a big show, cannot cancel, this getaway is my apology.
Now, one week removed from our getaway, T is unhappy again, she expresses doubt that anything can work, she expresses concern over money, and my lack of a job, like I had a choice in the decision to lose my job. I have held a job since I was 12, and do not plan on changing that pattern.
I just don't know what to do, I am exhausted, after readying myself to work on me, and think about life without T, she pulls me back in, and, I go, more than willingly, only to be told, 5 months later, that things are not working. She needs space. She loves me and cannot imagine herself with anyone else, she says the sex is great, but, feels great sex is all we have, her communication has dropped to nothing, I cannot talk about our problems, I am to leave her alone, and talk about it only at our sessions once a week. Its killing me.
So, here I am, the dog in the corner that has been kicked too many times. The more I push to be close, the more she pulls away. I love T, and, forgiving the affair has become easier and easier, day by day. I know I am a good father, and I want to be a better husband, not just for me, but for T and my boy as well, raised in a family that has been together, no divorce, T was raised in a family of divorce. She questions whether I am here for us, or, just for my boy, and family. I am near the end of my rope, venting has helped, look forward to any advice I can get. Sorry for the long post. Got a lot on my head.

So you are an OM that married a WW and now she's doing the same thing to you?

Is this part true?


I bet she is filling his head with the same lies she told about her XH, only now they are about you.

Sorry you are here. I'm also going to warn you of the impending 2x4's coming your way. What you have is what is known around here as an affairage. I.e. your relationship with your wife began while she was committing adultery. Unfortunately, the statistics for affairages are not good. That she cheated on you as well is not only probably, it is expected. This BB is made up primarily of betrayed spouses (BS) whose lives were shattered when their WS found another person (OP). You are an OP. Many of the BS's here see you as an active adulterer. Just warning you that you will be delivered some wrath as a result.

That said, there is a lot of useful articles on this site. You can also get counselling directly from the Harleys. This might be your best bet as people (very understandably) have a hard time giving objective advise to active adulterers.

Okay, is there a spot on this site where a person can see what all of the "netisms" or whatever they are called are posted, I don't know what a dd or other stuff is.
Maybe I can clarify my actions, I have had my thumb almost cut off by an ex who was abusive, and attacked me with a knife, I have been thrown through a wall, cracking bones in my back, I was cheated on countless times, at an all time low, T showed me respect that I had never witnessed before, respect that, at the time, I felt I didn't deserve. T's ex went off with a friend of mine the day we met, one of the reasons we started talking in the first place. I would never want to offend anyone, and, I firmly believe that once a cheater, always a cheater. How you meet them is how they will leave you. Maybe someone will read my post and say, "you got what you deserved" that is ok with me, heck, I feel better by brightening someones day a little. I have been in the hurt partners shoes far too many times, having conversations with T was a hard decision to make, I went against my own principles in letting her pursuit continue. And, I am not proud of myself for doing so.
I have never, ever been one to start a relationship with a married woman, hence the 1st 2nd and 3rd strike, and, as I stated, her ex remarried 2 months (might have been even less, not sure, at the most, 2 months) after a quickie cheap divorce that happened directly after T moved in with me.
I know this does not justify my actions, but, it might put a little of my side into the equation.
I love T, I love my life, confused, tired, and near the end of a rope that is harder to hold onto day after day. Thanks for the warning. Hope this post helps, if only a little.

Did you guys move away from J? Have you put into place healthy ways to have NC for life with J?

Toughest part of the dual betrayal is that Harley's rule of NC for life still holds. You gotta grieve what you lost in her choice to have an A, loss of who you thought was your best friend...it's really tough.

Do tough.

Did T identify why she chose to have an A, how and why she won't have one again? Did she answer all your questions? Did she choose to be transparent to you, rebuild your trust (and did you learn to not trust blindly, to not betray yourself and talk yourself out of the truth?), own her stuff, her feelings as hers and not make her choices from them?

Huge changes in recovery from infidelity...takes about two years or more...your mileage may vary. Though you may experience times of "back to normal" beware of these...because first you deal with the crisis behaviors...choices you make while you take time to comprehend what really happened...then once the crisis stops (NC in place, recommitment, new choices, new behaviors) then you address pre-A issues...so it's a time-consuming process.

You may experience intense fear at first, relief the first few months of NC, and then a surging anger...you are responsible for your own feelings...they are coming from you, to you, about you. New behaviors mean you share with your FWW about them...you verify NC is in place and you decide ahead of time what you will do if she violates NC.

I believe NC wasn't established...did you inform your family, her family, J's family about the A? Ask for them to fight for your marriage and to not pass on any info about J to T, which is a form of contact...and to help you ensure NC?

Did T write a NC letter? Did you inform J's SO, the mother of his child?

When you want to live in truth, you gotta act for it. Means you control your own acts of honesty, and make sure you're living from yours...so you can be clear on what you live from. If you choose to make your feelings be your guide, then you're no different from your WW, are ya? How's that working for you?

Was horrible for me.

You now know your marriage began from lies...not a great foundation. Change it. Change everything. You have a child now, fight for his intact family, 'k? Own, redeem and make possible what is in your power, especially choosing what you live from. It's a hard, rewarding road...I have no doubt you can succeed beautifully in your personal recovery...which is solely yours...and in your half of your marital recovery, which is only yours, as well.

I was a serial cheater...I suspect T is, too. Until I stopped. She can, also. Thing is, you cannot stop her. What you can know is the formula for a wayward state of mind--an MBer named Gimble wrote this: "An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect." Get to know that formula...in my marriage, we discovered we BOTH had to have it for it to ruin our lives...not just one.

LA

We have established why the affair happened, she felt insignificant, she felt as though she was not a priority in my life, here is how she felt.
#1 my band
#2 my son
#3 my wife
I have taken responsibility for my absence, I am trying to prove that she is my number one, along with my child. Her love language is quality time, which i have been more than happy to give more and more of.
As for talking about the affair, she has answered every question I have asked, even questions I now know i did not want to know the answers to,after finding out, I wanted to know every detail, and she has provided me with more than enough details.
To this day, J still swears up and down that it never happened, even after admitting to my father, a man he called his own "pa" that he slept with T. J's lady knows what happened, and refuses to accept it, don't ask me why.
His defiance in the face of the truth fuels the flame of anger in my heart towards him, I want to talk to him, but, it will more than likely, get physical.
So, after confronting why the affair happened, and working together to establish trust again, she just stops, after reeling me back in, she seems poised to toss me back. We are still in councelling, she has even offered up to do more individual sessions for herself. I honestly believe that she is no longer talking or contacting J, if she is telling the truth about everything, the whole act was awkward, and, no good.
I feel for J's lady, he has cheated on her before, and, I am sure this will not be the last, funny thing is, without his lady, he has nothing, no place to go, nothing. She left him once, and, he was devastated, she would not let him see their child, it was ugly, guess he just likes a conflicted life.

Am I understanding you correctly, you both are still in contact with J, in some way?

The affair did not happen because she felt last place. See, she felt last place...many ways to address her feelings...an affair was permissible to her to do so.

I know. I did that.

Don't confuse pre-A issues with the A. They are separate. You don't know why she chose to go outside her marriage, break her vows to herself, attack her own marriage do you?

Are you saying she's told you that since she felt last place that you should feel it to? That she intentionally harmed you, her son, the marriage, to get back at you for neglecting her?

If so, you're on the road to recovery...yet I don't think so. I think she got as far as her fogged justification and left it at that. If you didn't, she wouldn't have...that's not real, just more fantasy.

Don't buy into it.

See, she could have chosen to divorce you, separate, got counseling, included your family in supporting her marriage, INSTEAD of choosing an A.

If she believes today that you had anything to do with her A, then she's still in a wayward state of mind. Which is reasonable given J's still in your life. There is contact. Until contact stops, the A continues.

That's how it works.

If you continue in this marriage under the current beliefs, then you will be living by exhortion, won't you? "If you don't do this, then I'll have an A."

That's not reasonable or respectful.

Recovery does not begin until all contact ends.

See, part of the natural consequences of the A is that J loses contact with his "pa", with your family, and he'll learn and move on. Everyone loses in an A. No way around that. Those who will stand for your marriage will cut off contact to honor it. J attacked your marriage. Get that in your head correctly.

So did your wife.

The reason I suspect contact continues is because she's reverting to justifying her harmful choices. As long as she chooses to believe she earns love and punishment, then she will make you earn love and punish you.

Not how real love works. That's how kid-love works. Remember that, back in second and third grade? Life was about fair, not reality.

T cannot reel you back in. That victimhood isn't going to help you stand for your marriage. Trust comes from two halves...one earning it back through transparency, ownership, striving for redemption and their goal to rebuild your trust; and the other half is you can choose to NOT trust your partner and stay married.

Blind trust kicks out intimacy, builds fantasy and it's self-serving. A false payoff. Why are you expecting her to own her stuff when you are not doing so?

You chose hope...okay. Own your choice. You chose to believe you could recover your marriage...new knowledge, tools and skills. Okay. Own it. Nothing you learned, how you change, what you realize can change your wife in anyway. She chooses her thoughts (where they dwell), how she perceives, what she believes, how she views...and her feelings follow her actions. That's reality.

So do you.

She can't toss you back, reel you in or make you feel. You feel.

That's valid.

She can choose to end the marriage, to file for legal separation, for divorce...she can choose to reconcile, or not.

You have all those same choices.

Did you stand for J's relationship when he cheated before? Or did you stand for you desire to keep him as your friend? See, that's about you...all of it is...all the time...and what you choose, your choices, matter. They have consequences as well...so like T, examine yourself...if you choose to believe "he won't hurt me that way" when you've witnessed him hurting others, you share in her self-deception, don't you?

You know what we do to others, we do to ourselves...no one is safe because our permission cannot go one way. Always both ways...so if he permits himself to do that to the mother of his daughter, he'll permit himself to do it to his best friend. Anyone.

You can't control his permissions...just your own.

Until we change our permissions, they continue...you are snide with a waiter, you'll be snide with your spouse. Takes different levels of "provocation" maybe...remains true that you will. Know this about yourself and others...check your loyalty...see how much of the pain you're experiencing from her betrayal came from yours of yourself...lies to self, covering up, justifying, talking out of...get to your own nitty gritty.

And understand the tenets you actually live by (permissions) rather than just the ones you wished you did...consider apologizing to T's ex-husband, owning your influence, your choices, in destroying his marriage. Your part. Not all, your part. Find your own redemption and lead the way on how to do that...

because that's the road T would be on, too, wouldn't she? Once out of the fog, we can go back in...when we don't own, we just lease...we revert...and risk...and all the old fog comes rolling back in.

You cannot prove to T she's number one...and she shouldn't be...that's reserved for the marriage...you can live your marriage as your top priority...hold yourself to getting in the 15 hours of UA, act for the rules of marriage, and know that in doing so, you are being the best parent possible...because your child depends on your marriage.

Just how it is...if the child comes first, the rest falls down...because then he/she will believe marriage is about him/herself. That's what was exampled...if the child sees two equal, respectful, acting from love (not reacting to their feelings) partnership, then that will be their expectation of marriage...what they require of themselves.

Can't do it perfectly all the time...can do it with integrity, though.

You're not giving quality time are you? Aren't you receiving it, too? When your heart's desire is your marriage, it's mutual...Undivided Attention (UA) for 15 hours a week is your act of intimacy, love and honor. That's what you'll experience. If it's giving to get her to stay, recover, etc...then aren't you doing exactly what she did?

LA

No contact with J, none. Yeah, I need to learn that I am making these changes for myself, and, that I cannot make T love me, cannot make T want to be with me. These are choices she has to make on her own, the more I push the more she will pull away, that is what I am struggling with, I am learning the lessons I want to learn to be a better husband, a better person, I know it is working, because I can recognize the behaviors I want to better when I make mistakes, so hard, I am a creature of habit, I need to learn to bend with the wind a little more. I keep pushing for answers, solutions, my therapist suggested anti-anxiety medicine, not a fan of pills, but, not a fan of the way I feel either. I just don't know where the sudden change came from, one minute, happily working on ourselves together, the next, she is unsure, and I find myself in limbo again. I don't understand why we just can't talk about it. Nice to see another view on things, helps.

So you and T started as an affairage (aka adultery-based marriage)? Is that correct?

Jo

Your current marriage is known as an "Affairage" (aka adultery-based marriage).

Dr Harley, the founder of MB and owner of this site, has posted info and stats on affairages and their very high unlikelihood of ever succeeding. He also strongly recommends the folks in an adultery-based marriage return to their original spouse(s).

Here is Dr. Harley’s post about affairages not likely succeeding and why: Click Here

Hope this helps.

Jo

Ewop,

Read very closely what Dr. Harley has to say about marriages that begin as affairs. He tries to help them.

Dr. Harley doesn't say that your M will not succeed. He says that marriages that begin as affairs have a lower percentage of succeeding and that there is usually more things to over come and it will be hard.

The tools provided by Dr. H are very good. Learn about them on this website, get the books and understand them. Then weigh whatever people tell you here against what Dr, H says.

The proper use of these tools will help to restore your M.

S&C

Resilient,

I don't think it is appropriate to change the name of another poster's thread to one that is likely cause problems.

S&C

For the record, posters are allowed to change the subject line of their posts as long as the words are within guidelines. If you feel a poster has violated TOS, please notify the moderators and let us handle it.

Revera

Ewop:

You're new here, so I'm going 2 repeat something that others, like Resilient, already know:

I made up the term "affairage" during a time when I was still resentful of my W's affair, and let myself get caught up in the drama that often ensues here when either an active wayward comes along or, as in this case, someone who's marriage started out as an affair comes along looking for help saving their marriage, which is now in trouble.

For the record, I'm ashamed that I made up a word that has been used so many times as ammunition 2 demean people, when they're obviously hurting before coming here for help.

But what's done is done. I'm no longer that resentful, but many people here still are. Just so you are aware. And I have 2 accept that people here are fond of using that term, and maybe still try 2 help if I can. It's not "my word" anymore. 42nately, I don't want 2 have anything 2 do with it either.

Now, as 2 your particular si2ation. From what I remember, the post by Dr Harley that Resilient posted the link 2 above dealt with a man who was either not married 2 his partner who was having an affair (or he was) and/or they didn't have any children 2gether. I'll read it again when I get done here, in case I'm off base.

But you are married, have been for 6 years, and you have an innocent child 2gether. I would recommend that you call the Harleys for some coaching (see "coaching center" at the top of this page). They'll work with you and with your wife, both individually and 2gether. They're very good.

And as you'll see when you read Dr Harley's post, they will try 2 help you, even if the si2ation makes that harder than it might otherwise be.

No matter what, here you are. You can't change the past, but you can learn from it and make a better fu2re for your child.

best,
-ol' 2long

Everything here has been helpful, I am still trying to hold the fragile strings of my marriage together, look forward to seeking Dr. Harleys advice, talking to my wife about this tonight. She is still distant, and emotionally unavailable. I do not know what to do. I am exhausted, physically and emotionally. Fighting for my family, talking to a brick wall. Divorce seems inevitable. A path I do not feel comfortable taking. I know I can make it without my wife, I know I can be a good dad to my son, even after we are not together, I just do not want this to happen. Scared, terrified, I feel like my world is crashing down around me, and I am helpless to do anything about it. Tired of crying myself to sleep, tired of worrying. Tired... Councilling again tomorrow, the only time I get anything from my wife is there, and, its usually not what I want to hear, but, at least I get something.

Hi Ewop,

Hang in there. Have you had an opportunity to read through the articles on the MB website? Or been able to look through the books His "Needs/Her Needs" or "Surviving An Affair"?

These tools will do a couple of things. One, they will help you be a better spouse. Regardless of whether or not the M is restored. The other thing is it gives you some of the best tools to recover the M.

If you can swing a call to one of the Harleys, that would be very helpful. They can do more in the short time on the phone than other counselors can do in 3-4 sessions in person. Well worth the effort.

Take it one step at at time.

Blessings.

S&C

Well, it's over, just found out a few days ago that T has been talking to another man she met while at training for her new job. Stumbled upon missing phone calls and deleted texts. T claims there has been no physical contact, but, I cannot believe her, this guy traveled almost 4 hours just to see T. She said he is moving closer. This is horrible, going to lose my son, my life, all because she can't stay faithful, she is once again jumping from one relationship to another, all while my boy sits on the sidelines. I have been the main caregiver for my child, and, after talking to fellow divorced dads, my chances of getting my son as much as I want are slim to none, and slim is slamming his last beer and calling it a night. Took my councilors advice, and have started taking anti-anxiety medications. Not a fan of pills. Here I am, alone, and jobless, seeing as how I supported T through her promotion and the inevitable loss of my job because of her promotion. As they say, life is not fair.... Angry...
I don't know what to do, I want to yell and scream at T that this behavior is not normal, alas, I know this will help nothing. I fear my boy will be barraged with an unending string of step dads, and, he has done nothing to deserve that. T will be leaving for a week in a few days and I will be watching our child, I swear, the only reason she took me back was to have a good, reliable, loving babysitter while she put her life together. Seeing my lawyer tomorrow, any suggestions?

Ask your lawyer to help you arrange a PI who can document everything your W does, so that you have a decent chance of showing poor character, so you have a better chance of getting your son?