Thanks, tired. The reason I was trying to do it this way is that, in our relationship, my H has always been super forceful. He just never even considers that our family will do anything other than what he decides is what we have to do. If one of us questions him, he goes over the top. 'Don't question me!' Stuff like that.

Our IC suggested that I change the rule on my own, so that by the time H gets home from his trip, they'll have had several days of him driving her, so it's hard to argue that she won't be safe. I know it's not POJA, but we have never had POJA in our family.

And I know she is supposed to stand up for herself, but in this family, it really just doesn't happen. Not because he beats her or anything, he's not mean, but he makes her (and me) feel guilty through excessive manipulation, to the point that we don't feel entitled or safe to go against him. IC pointed out that I have to start doing what other mothers do - question his decisions and state my piece and negotiate with him and not just give up. He has too much control, such as flat out saying she will never ride in C's car and being unwilling to listen to anything, and getting angry if we question it.

I honestly think that I can't possibly bring this up to him in person - not this first time. I do think the letter's too long, though. Thanks for pointing that out.

Thanks, Jayne. I was feeling a little nervous about saying let's negotiate on this, because IC said I have to start saying that I have just as much right to make decisions about her as he does.

And from what I've seen, if I DO stand up to him, full force, I think he will back down. He may not be happy, but he will back down. But if he sees that my decisions have just as good of a result as his, it might make him more open to them.

I will go back and finesse (and shorten!) it.

Hi Cat, our family its very much the same, but as the kids are getting older I find I have to let them have a relationship with their father some days its good some not so good. Take for today my middle child wanted to go to a party tonight. Well he needed money for a gift seems thats what kids like these days and a ride will be home late. Normally I would tell my husband what our son needs and negotiate for our child because my son uses me and I am easier. Well enough of that I said to them, you want money a ride etc.. then talk to him yourself this is not my problem. Later I had an disagreement with my eighteen year old, and I was grateful my husband stayed out of it.

Well its working out great now the weight of both fathering and mothering the children is gone. Sometimes they get what they want from their father and believe me he is no pushover and can be very intimidating and sometimes they do not. At first my husband was taken back by all the kids coming up to him and me not getting in the middle but its working and he is actually losing up with them.

It is not like you cant be a sounding board for your daughter maybe you should have her right a letter to her dad " short and sweet" in her words what she wants and you can all sit around when he gets home to a home cooked meal and make the conversation a family moment, instead of it being a you and him power struggle maybe a good time to all bond. Well just a thought.

But I think the IC was saying that cat needs to start standing up to H to protect DD18, because she hasn't been doing that in the past; that DD18 needs to see cat valuing her enough to warrant protecting, and to see an example of cat standing up to H instead of doing whatever he says; and that cat needs to learn to stand up to him, and she's most willing to do so when it's to protect DD18.

Just my guess; I could be wrong.

When it comes to doing what's best for the kids, I think some things should be non-negotiable; especially if you've done the reality-check and gotten an outside, unbiased, informed opinion.

Hi Jayne maybe the IC is right who knows. I guess if Cat has never stood up to her husband it may be the thing to do. I hope it works out for all of them.

Wow, Jayne, that was a really good explanation.

tired, I agree that in most families that's the way to be. But I found out this week that what I thought had been a (relatively) normal family was quite dysfunctional because of H and because of my inability to be on his level.

He only this spring allowed D18 to go to the mall without us. She only 4 months ago was allowed to go on a real date with a boy, without us driving them to and from it. I think it was around the same time that she was allowed to ride in a car with a boy driving, and that was only because I told her she could go to XYZ with this boy - in front of H - and because the boy is so straight-laced that D18 was too loose for him because she had kissed a boy!

D18 and I discovered in IC this week that her friends think he's a pervert because he says sexual things in front of them and don't like coming here; he drives erratically and they're afraid to be in the car with him; he makes fun of people at the mall (loudly) like an 11 year old and mortifies her; he blows up at people ALL the time, in PUBLIC, so she's constantly ashamed; he pats D18 on the rear end cos he still sees her as an 11 year old, and it shames her. I could go on, but the point is that I have stood by and never said a word about this, because (1) I'm too scared to, so as to avoid fights, and (2) I've never seen a normal family so I didn't realize all this stuff he does is harmful.

Actually, now that I think about it, his acting too 'friendly' around teenage girls was part of the reason we had to leave our last neighborhood; he had already had a rumor started about him by my evil stepmother, but then we had an incident at a community event all on our own, and the people there were literally 'looking' for the guy who did something inappropriate. But in H's mind, he was just joking around with 'kids.'

So, yes, it really does need to be me at this point to get our family closer to normal.

Cat does your daughter stand up to her dad at all? I know me and my husband can be pretty embarrassing in our children's eyes at times.

She argues with him all the time. But when it comes to getting to do something, or go somewhere, there is no question about it - he makes the rules.

H seriously NEVER believes he is wrong.

How is she at negotiating for herself? Is your husband the only male in the house do you have any boys?

It's just the 3 of us. We waited 10 years to have her, we're both 50 or over. The first 10 years, I did nothing but pay attention to him - what I was trained for. Once she came along, I just had to work harder, and gave up any remnant of myself.

She's actually really good at telling him what she doesn't like, but she is afraid to negotiate for anything because the minute you say ANYTHING to him about not agreeing with his decision, he turns into a tyrant.

I here you I dropped everything for the children, job, travel etc.. and he kept on with his career, I feel your pain. So she is an only child and she seems very much loved by both of you. You both seem to want whats best but have such very different views. Do you feel like a ref?

I have been the ref between him and every single person in my life for 30 years. I have been protecting him from his consequences the whole time. Which is why it's such a mess now.

This goes far beyond the normal teenager learning to stand up to dad, like cat said. The reason that brought cat here to MB in the first place is that she felt like she had no voice in the marriage, and that H did whatever he wanted. This is what cat was taught growing up; and it's the model DD18 has grown up with.

You've made huge progress just in the last little while, cat, I'm really proud of you! How's the letter?

Cat our husbands sound so much alike, mine is very sure of himself, logical, not a tiny bit of female hormone in him, and he cant decorate or cook, just a typical guy. I hate the way he treats his family but have learned that its up to them what they are willing to accept, its crazy they still bother with him. As for your daughter is it just an over protective issue? When my husband would not let my boys go off at a theme park together I said to him he really needed to cut the cord already, now when I am over protective he says it to me.

To Jayne true but now is her daughter not learning the same thing as Cat growing up?

I think no matter how much someone stands between us and our consequences, we will always have to face the effects of them.

You may have a very powerful tool in your ability to distance yourself from your dh and his overpowering need to have you around. Can you work out a plan with your dd where you both tell your dh that mocking others and making sexual comments is not allowed. That if it is done in public she and you, or she and her friend will leave him for an hour.

My dad was like this also and my mom was too much of a push over to stand up for us. I have bad feelings about that to this day, but I understand that she didn't have the tools to do anything different.

You do have the tools, you just have to have the courage to use them. Your dh's disfunctional way of dealing with the world isn't disfunctional to him because it works. Someone says something he doesn't like, he yells. The surge of adrenalin that he gets from the anger erases the momementary hurt that he feels about people not supporting him (support to him meaning unconditional surrender).

I just had a thought...since your dd has turned 18 and is planning to live at home while she is attending college, perhaps its time to have the family negotiate the rules that will be in place during that time. Obviously she needs to be able to come and go as she pleases once she graduates high school, but with certain boundaries in place to show respect for her parents.

Can you use this as a means to negotiate a more respectful relationship between dd and dh?

Yes, IMHO (I really feel funny stating how cat's DD is growing up; she could answer better than I) and that is exactly why the IC wants cat to stand up to her H.

Unless your H is abusive, then I don't think it's the same at all. Cat's H's behavior would be sexual harassment if he acted that way to someone at work. He isn't just being a "guy"; he's dysfunctional, and not just in the M; he hasn't asked for bonuses he was promised; he hadn't done things around the house like put up curtain rods, for years; they were years behind in taxes, and he actually impeded cat's work on submitting the taxes; without cat's intervention, their house would be in utter disorder, their finances would be in severe trouble, they would be in legal trouble, etc.... he's gone on racist tirades attacking salesclerks; cat has lived in *fear* and is just now finding her voice, not to get things her way but just to be allowed to do things like submit taxes.

I just don't think it's good for cat to minimize how bad things are, since she's just recently realized the level of some aspects of it.

Jayne I do not think Cat is making light of the situation not at all. What I am saying is there has to be a way for what Cat to get what she wants and needs from her husband and at the same time not passing the baton to her daughter in dealing with a difficult man, people " give her some tools for the future".

No, I'm not saying cat is making light of the sitch. I'm saying that... and I'm sorry, I don't know how to put this diplomatically... I think comparing her sitch to yours is making light of her sitch.

The things that would be a good idea under more normal circumstances, don't fit this sitch.

Wow, Happy, I hadn't even thought of what to do after high school. Jeez. She may be staying here for 2 years at community college before going to UNT, but I have found that the main 2 reasons she has said that are (1) she knows how utterly in debt we are and she's trying to spare us of expense (I had to sit her down and tell her we had the money for whatever college she wanted, so she would quit sacrificing for us), and (2) because of us not empowering her, she's still pretty unsure of her ability to take on difficulties.

I will definitely talk to H about that. Thanks.

Oh, and leaving when he is acting up is something IC has been trying to get me to feel safe enough to do for quite awhile.

Here's a taste of what H will do. We go to church, where he is in his element, everyone talking to him, asking him questions, for help, he's in charge of stuff there, I'm invisible. So I see, as usual, he's going to be busy there for another 2 or 3 hours (!), so I tell him I'm going home (5 minutes away, about 4 miles) and he can call me when he's ready to come home and I'll come pick him up. So he calls, I say I'll be there asap, but I'm in the middle of a chore. I end up taking another 5 or 10 minutes before I leave, so I drive there, worried he'll be upset, and I see him walking home! He sure showed me! Look at what he had to do, he HAD to walk home because I'm such a horrible wife!

So I pull over, he is furious that I didn't pick him up in time, he gets in but won't talk to me; I'm freaking out that I've done something wrong, he continues to give me the silent treatment for hours, until I say I'm sorry.

Such is our life.