Most people don't want to die wondering. Knowing the truth is a pre-requisite to recover otherwise he will always wonder.

Just the threat of a polygraph will most probably be enough. SHe will start singing like a canary before they even reach the appointment and at least then he knows what he is facing.

Yeah, giorgos, I guess I don't care a whole lot about the sex question. What she did was just as bad, in my mind. Especially since she didn't seem all that interested in the physical aspect in our marriage before the A, but I really wanted it. The fact that she "wants" it with this OM stings.

The only issue is an STD. I've asked her numerous times that if she could possibly have an STD she needed to tell me so we could protect the baby. And she steadily said no. I'm inclined to believe her ... just the same, I'm going to insist she gets STD testing at the very least. Heck, even without penetration there could have been an STD.

The only thing that attracts me about the polygraph is just that I don't want her to feel like she can lie to me anymore! Not just about sex, about everything. I really don't care how bad the truth is, I'd rather have it than the lie. The lie hurts millions more. I can't see why she doesn't understand that. But again, I have to remember that she's posessed, as you say

Wow, that's even more extreme than my WW. I guess there are some similar patterns here, huh? I don't know what they think they're accomplishing by acting this way ... children act this way, not adults, right? WW never acted this way ... until now.

I just see it as offering more risk than reward. I would also consider it as a LB. I think if I had known early on every graphic detail, I would have bailed. But each BS is different in what is important to them so I'm only looking at it from my perspective.

But how can a polygraph tell you the truth about "everything". WW is not in her right mind. What she believes to be true now (and would likely pass a polygraph) may not be reality. Truth, unfortunately, is relative.

Well I wouldn't necessarily want every graphic detail either. Just an accurate outline. You are right - every BS is different.

However I will say that NOW is the best time to get this information as it will be a HUGE love buster later in recovery for both of them.

I think you will have to repeat the STD test in six months or so.

Ah my old friend - I disagree. Truth is absolute. Many waywards have cracked under threat of a polygraph.

Simple example:

Examiner: "Have you ever loved your husband?"

WW: "No"

What does the polygraph reveal? IMHO, the WW truly believes "no" is the truth. But is it really?

Some people believe they have seen ghosts. Others believe it is impossible. Somebody is wrong. Who?

Which is why you would not ask that question!

How about "Did you have sexual intercourse with x"
"Have you ever had sexual intercourse with anyone but your husband since your marriage"

Facts.

Not touchy feely "feelings questions.

And I'm disappointed you didn't slap me for calling you my old friend.

But HTM doesn't care about that - HTM wants to know "everything".

Since paternity was in doubt, the question of SF is moot. You don't get pregnant by sitting on a toilet seat (unless OM is already sitting there).

He does?

Early on I wanted to know many things. I never got most of the answers. Now it no longer matters. I now see things in a different context than when I first found out. I took a serious hit to my self-esteem. If I had learned too much, I likely would have given up.

And BigK, let's not be insensitive to HTM.

OK - I sure don't want to labour the point and this will be my last post about it (probably) but are you saying that if Gemela had denied a full PA as HTM's wife has that you would not want to know the truth about that? ie if it was or was not a full PA?

I think that is a basic fact not a detail and I would need to know the answer to that.

(he did post that they did not go all the way and I asked him about that in the context of paternity.)

I think the paternity question already answers the PA issue. And gemela did deny the PA at first.

Actually you're most probably correct.

Update: Even though she didn't speak to me for 3 days after I cut off her contact with the OM, she didn't seem angry either ... maybe just very depressed. I think on some level she knew I am trying to help her out of love.

Also, for some reason she came with me to my week long business trip (she didn't have to so it was a good sign). While there, she warmed up to me and now we are all friendly and affectionate again. So I think I am back on plan A again.

She has verbally agreed (but only after I asked, i don't think she really grasps or cares about the importance yet) to NC, but of course I have no way of knowing for sure. She's lied before and there are any number of ways she can get around my safeguards. But I have been snooping and to the best of my knowledge so far it seems like NC has been kept. And I think on some level she knows her A was wrong and is trying to break free, but her feelings are very strong. I know I can't trust her right now, but nor can I control her, so all I can do is keep Plan A-ing.

Now I'm wondering: what i'm really waiting for isn't just affection and "getting along," its genuine brokenness, remorse, and repentance. (But she's not really the kind of person to ever express these things -- growing up, her family just ignored problems and swept them under the rug.)

Will remorse/repentence ever materalize? Is it something I can ask for? I feel like she has a lot to answer for before we can *really* start genuine R. I have a long list of demands that R means to me (including complete transparency, getting a new cell phone that OM doesn't know about) but I don't want to "force her into it" because that seems inconsistent with Plan A. I want her to *want* it.

How long does one have to wait after NC, on average, before the fog clears?

Also, I've heard that R can happen even without remorse/repentance. But I just don't see it. Anyone care to comment on how this would work?

Sorry, this is a venting post: The POC OM does not seem to want to leave us alone. He keeps trying to text and email my WW despite my very CLEAR commands to him to stay out of our marriage.

And at one point OM kept trying to get ahold of ME by texting my WW's (he knows by now its compromised by me). I guess he feels bad about his cowardly hang-up the first time I called him. I didn't want to call him again (saw no reason why I should pay to talk to that POC), so I told him to send me an email.

OM's messages to me are extremely pukeworthy and incomprehensible. (I might post them later just so we can mock him together.) He's a real idiot -- i have NO idea what my WW sees in him. He is totally out of line with her moral convictions, not a Christian, and he's in a crappy school w/o a job (and his prospects for a good one are slim at best). He's *much* younger than her, immature, doesn't even speak English, has a really screwed-up idea of what love is (he basically thinks with his crotch) and in summary is a total loser, even from an objective standpoint. Oh, and he goes after married women. Oh, and he's butt-ugly.

Geez, I could almost understand being cheated on by a really, really great guy, but HIM ??????? Makes my skin crawl. Is THIS the guy my WW fantasizes and drools over? She thought THIS guy was a better catch? I just don't get it. ARGH!

Oh, and in the last email the OM had the nerve to tell me that he "loves" her. Gee, we've been together for 8 years, I've supported her, been with her through good times and bad, sacrificed for her, defended her, honored her, helped her, respected her, lifted her up, listened to her, treated her well, never withheld anything, been by her side.

YOU (POC OM) knew her for 1 month and all you did was LUST after her and take advantage of her when I wasn't around and ruin not only HER life but allow her to irreparably harm the lives of everyone around her that she cares about. Oh, but I guess I didn't know that ... you "LOVED" WW! That changes everything! Well, I might as well give up then, because I guess that makes your A okay! POC moron. :twobyfour::twobyfour::twobyfour:

I thought you were stressing the importance of NC?
Why, WHY, _WHY_ would you tell him to send you an email when you are striving for NC?

Put an auto-delete rule on your email and your wife's email accounts.
Change your cellphone numbers.
Block his number(s) from your home land line.

NC means NC.
Period.

Thanks for the advice, turtlehead.

You're right, it was probably a mistake. I don't get anything out of it and it just causes me stress. It's a separate email account I created just so I could talk to OM. WW doesn't see his messages, only I do. I'll be deleting the account soon, I'm hoping the idiot OM will hang himself with the next reply and give me ammunition to use against him later.

The only reason I gave him a way to email me is so that he would quit text messaging my wife trying to look for me. I can't block his number on her cell because its an international number and the cell phone company only blocks 10 digit domestic numbers. I want WW to change her cell # and email addy...I was hoping SHE would suggest it herself since I know that forcing her to do these things is futile in the end if WW is really just going to turn around and talk to OM anyways. But if she volunteered, that would show some transparency and commitment to the M, which seemingly has not yet materialized.

But I think I'm going to ask WW to change her number tomorrow anyways, just so I can sleep at night. At this point I don't think WW will text OM (she knows I can see when she does), but I'm often consumed with anxiety that OM will send WW a text, which I have no way of stopping, and *zip* its back to square one for us.