TA,

I think I have taken responsibility for much of the disfunction and I do have a huge tolerance for my own pain. I will usually put my own happiness last. I have almost zero tolerance for pain to my children. If you read closely you will see that when I realized that the children knew about the A and were still being hurt by the continued behavior I felt I had to act. That is why the changes needed to be immediate and non-negotiable. I don't care enough about W's feelings at this point to have any urgency about changes for me.

I can work on my Mr. Fix Everything attitude but I'm just not in a place myself where I can see the kids be hurt right now. I probably have first born written all over me.

Also I learned that W was only remorseful to a point, in our discussions she wanted to get back to the life that I was only tolerating for the children. We had some calm discussions about what we really wanted. She wants something different than I want. When we were trying to change she was unhappy, now she is happy.

TA said exactly what I am thinking, but in a more concise fashion. I agree with all of it. DDay was mid September and you are D NOW...a month later. I have been here over three years and haven't seen such a rapid decline of a "R" as this. But what disturbs me more is that you are being given this advice.


OK if they knew about the A they have been in pain over this for years. Why would there be MORE pain when they witness their two parents trying to work things out? Seems to me this would begin to lessen the pain. This would show them how two people who have committed to being together deal with the hardships that come along. Do you honestly think that their pain is going to magically go away because you get D and your W leaves the family?
What they have seen is their FATHER lose his composure. That would increase any kids anxiety level. They are reacting to your heightened emotional state.

6, I don't think you are punishing her. I see that your anger has gotten the best of you and you drew the line and died on that hill. She ran away from what appeared to be the point of no return. Live like this or leave.

Your situation is no different than anyone else's on this board. We all had our DDay and we were all so very angry we couldn't see straight. But we were encouraged to work through the anger because a happy M and a happy family was the goal. In time you would see clearer and would be able to make healthy decisions based on knowledge, not emotions. Six months is what is usually recommended. And in six months you were be more stable and aware of what your WW was truly willing to do. She reacted to your ultimatums. Is it how she would have reacted had you given her 6 months to sort through her feelings and emotions?

When the kids were babies and you were working, who took care of them? Was it your W? Did you have a live in caretaker? Nanny? If yes, do you still have one?

Michele,

When Sam was a baby she spent every day at my parents, they are young and I drover her to and from every day. I had just finished law school when Rachael was born and we did the back and forth for 6 months or so until I made enough that we could afford daytime help. I'm in contract and corporate law so not really useful at all in most situations. We had daytime help all the time except during the A only 2 days a week. I was stupid not to realize what that mean at the time. After the A day help until J&J started school.

Now we have no help but I see them off to school and am home about 10-15mins after they get home.

The extra pain for the children was two fold. One she was actively rejecting them with wanting nights out etc. They now know that I know and they were seeing me spend time with a WW who was rejecting them.

I get the feeling from you and TA that you think any chance at having a mother is worth unlimited pain. I'm put off by that and in general I am put off when I think women are dismissing the value of a father in the children's lives. If a man had done the same behavior as my WW would you be insisting that the wife give them more time? Also I am now treating my W like an adult, we discussed choices and she made one. Are you saying I should have treated her otherwise?

Michele and TA,

IT is not our job to tell 6years what to do or how to do it. It is our job to offer advice, answer questions (if we can), and suggest strategies that might be helpful such as: Go see a counselor.

Further, 6years did not ask our advice about filing for divorce, it was his choice. I will admit that I think his logic holds water for me if not others.

But here is the point. I would be jumping all over 6years to give his W more time IF:
1. She had not exhibited consist behavior for virtually their whole marriage.

2. I thought 6years was not giving us a fairly unbiased picture when MIL is kicking his W in the tush to do something before she loses him.

3. This was not a 10 year journey dating back to her affair, which he knew about. D-day was really years ago. Her fessing up was only months ago.

4. She showed any interest in changing her behavior.

5. She wasn't apparently glad to be out of the marriage, it is not like she is asking for a chance or even wants to reside with him.

6. The kids had not known since it happened and have been torn apart about keeping secret from the one parent that takes care of them. Let's not forget that his W did NOT hide her affairs from the children she did it right in front of them.

Now you point out the many WS's behave as she has, once they are caught. However, most WS had a history that was counter to their current behavior, his W does not.

Would I have recommended a rapid divorce? No. Do I think hanging in there would have changed things? No. I have been here a long time and I have seen situations turn around even after divorce, but rarely have I seen this situation.

That said, I can dream and that dream would be that 6Years's W wakes up one day, realizes what she had, what she has lost and tries "successfully" to put this family together, with the kids being happy, 6years happy, and she happy. It is just a dream right now, but who knows.

Just my thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

6 years,

I think you did great. You protected your children. That is GOOD. Absolutely!!

Some women just AREN'T meant to be mothers and nothing can change that. (My ex-SIL is in that category.) Your kids are fortunate to have you as a father to take care of them...many times that is not the case.

As for divorce...my parents were divorced and I was SO glad that it happened. And I'm STILL glad. It is unhealthy for children to be in an environment where the parents cannot get along at all, or one parent is abusing the other. My father was emotionally/mentally abusive to my Mom and me, (my siblings were little so they didn't get much of that.)

He also had at least one affair that I know of when I was little and may have had more.

I get along with him fine now but I'm glad that they split up when they did. We had Mom--and my grandpa was really my father figure after that. It is kinda funny because my stepmom always rides my Dad's butt about being a terrible father to us. In front of us, too, sometimes.

Your kids are going to be just fine, IMO.

Take care,

Charlotte

No I don't feel that way. But, I do believe that it is worth trying your HARDEST before giving up on their mother.


In no way am I dismissing the importance of a father in a child's life. And yes, there are many BWs here who's Hs had A's and chose to not change immediately. Most are advised to implement the principles that Dr Harley has established and wait. Wait until the dust settles a bit to see what is left and if it can be R.

JL

Agreed. But when do we encourage newly BSs that it is OK to D a month after DDay?

I think that the DDay timeline is the source of our disagreement here. You factor in 10 years. I don't. There are a lot of Ms here where the spouses have detached. Independent behavior runs rampant and there is no love...then the A happens. It was the opposite here excpet that 6 knew about the A and CHOSE not to address it. He chose to detach further.


Actually her behavior was consistent, consistently poor. But that was accepted. It was not complained about. So how would she know that he was not happy with this behavior? The behavior appears odd to most of us here, but if this is who she was/is then how would she know to change? He M her and stayed with her. Wouldn't that reenforce her behaviors?


Did they know you asked for her to stop going out?

Look I'm not here to condemn 6. What he tried to do was admirable. He tried to keep his family together. I'm looking long term. He'll never know if she would have been willing to change if he had requested it instead of demanding it. A little time would have made it clear. I'd hate for him to have put in sooooo many years to keep his family together and later come to regret the rapid disintegration of it all when unpleasant emotions came into play. It's a lot of years to throw away. His feelings wil probably change. He doesn't know how he would feel 6 months from now. If she still wasn't on board then he could D then with NO regrets.

They are just my thoughts 6 and JL.

Michele,

I did tell the children that she wanted to be a good mom and was going to try. That is why they were more upset when she didn't do it.

That is understandable. Normally in a situation where the WS is continually harming the BS and/or the children with their poor behavior(or A) plan B is recommended. Plan B helps both the WS and the BS have the opportunity to actually feel what D will be like prior to doing it. I think this could have been implemented in your situation and it MIGHT have helped your WW to see the reality of your unhappiness and her need to change. It also helps the BS get their head straight to see what they really want. You missed this step.

6, I may tend to push the "wait and see, your feelings may change" type of advice. Personally, when my FWH had his A I could not IMAGINE staying with him and FORGIVING him. Time went on and I followed the advice here and followed the principles that are outlined and my feelings changed. It took LOTS and LOTs of time and I did not make any drastic decisions early on.

I can only go with what I know and I know feelings change.

I hope you the best and I hope someday your WW does come around and starts to work her butt off to make ammends to you and your kids. But in the meantime it's always a good thing to dig deep and improve you. Be a husband that any woman would want. Someday you'll have the opportunity to put yourself out there to start anew.

6, I should make it clear that I think you are a good man who genuinely tries to do what's best. It's not your morality I'm questioning here. I'm concerned that you've consistently dealt with 'grey' life situations in a black-and-white way, and I don't think this augurs well for the future of yourself or your kids. The speed with which you have terminated the marriage, as soon as it was likely to be pulling you into uncomfortable grey areas, tends to confirm my suspicion.


It seems to me that you've handled the whole situation - from the unplanned pregnancy onwards - with a limited and fixed vocabulary of life skills. Of course you did the very best you knew how, and it's not a crime to have a small repertoire of responses as a late teenager - but failing to gather new tools leads to a rigid approach, forcing the solution to fit the tools available. As in 'when all you've got is a hammer, every problem is a nail'?

A wiser (and possibly older) man might have observed your wife's fears of handling the baby and recognised that there was a serious problem. Many women, especially young women with their first baby, suffer from just this fear, and need professional help and support. It's not that rare. Your wife was what, eighteen, nineteen at the time? And post-natal depression is far from uncommon and manifests in strange ways. BTW, all parents are 'superbusy' at the birth of the first baby - it's almost always a time of anxious career and financial pressure. But the relationship between the mother and the child is all-important. Anything that's going wrong in that is not just a red flag - it's a shrieking klaxon that shouldn't be ignored.

Your reponse to the problem was not to consult a professional and get help, as far as I can tell, but to remove from your wife most of the responsibilities of coping with the baby, largely by taking them on yourself. I can understand why a young man, stressed and anxious to keep his family intact, might act this way. But do you understand why this was an unwise thing to do? And didn't your parents observe that your wife was having problems dealing with the baby? Didn't they mention it to you? How on earth did this situation persist without someone speaking up about how unhealthy it was? Why didn't somebody get help?

From what you've said, the fact of your wife's indifference to the child did not deter you from having more children with her. This makes not a bit of sense to me. Did it seem at all normal to you that your child was having to be looked after mainly by yourself? Why would you even contemplate adding to this toxic situation with another child? And then another three?

Can you see how all of this may look very odd to an outside observer?

6, I'm not bringing up all these issues because I think you're bad in any way. I'm raising them because they suggest to me someone who doesn't 'see' the world around him very clearly, and who tends to act in a way that allows him to remain in a state of relatively comfortable myopia and illusion.

With each succesive failure on the part of your wife, you seemed to have climbed further up Mount Good Guy, while she slipped further into the Valley of Useless Dross. You don't seem to have given her any encouragement that she CAN be competent; you've simply taken on the things she's failed at and confirmed her sense of uselessness.

This post sums up a lot:


See, it wasn't your place to tell the kids what your wife was going to do. It wasn't your place to speak for her. It wasn't your place to make a commitment on her behalf. She may have told YOÚ what she intended, but her commitment to the children was HERS to decide and voice. Do you see that?

You might care to do some research on boundaries, and the topic of overfunctioning.

Michele G said this:


and I agree. I see kids who're desperately trying to keep hold of some stability by siding with the 'right' parent against the 'wrong' parent.

Further, I think they've learned a few valuable lessons here. Refuse to do what 6 wants...come clean about an awful truth...and you're out on your ear, ejected, unwanted. 6 won't tell you if you're not measuring up to his expectations, but will maintain a manly silence for years, until it's finally too much, and he snaps.

Being aware that your father will try hard to understand your viewpoint, and will find some compassion, tolerance and forgiveness for you, seems to me a much healthier kind of childhood.

TA

TA,

In the end this was a joint decision, I offered W the opportunity to come home and try to build a relationship her way. She decided not to. I agree that I gradually took away all responsibility and could have handled it better. However, W seemed happy to just give up all of her responsibilities. It is not like she hated the children as babies, it is just that she had a very limited ability to deal with them. We were very young when we had our children, really only 28 and 29 when the twins were born.

You may be used to different kinds of men than me, but I never, ever lose my composure. I would have to be pushed up against a wall for that to happen. Even then I do not yell and scream or say things I do not mean, ever. I am the oldest child and I have always been protective over my family. As a child I got in about a million fights because of things people said or did to my little brothers and sisters. I got that beaten out of me. I think I may have cracked if I had walked in on W and OM doing it in front of the twins, but I did not see that and so I am not in prison. Even when I heard about it I did not yell and scream or have a fit.

My children know that I have high standards, and they know when they do not meet them. We will always talk about ways they could meet them in the future and if the standards are possible for them to meet. I have never , not even once, said or done anything to them or my W to humiliate or belittle them. And Sam is 20, as you can imagine, he has done some very very stupid things. He knows he can talk to me and we will think about what he needs to do to fix anything, if he can, and how he can do better in the future. I just do not think that self control is a bad thing. Of course, keeping secrets is bad and I did that for a long time.

We are in family therapy and I am in individual therapy as well. I do have a real problem with grey areas. I don't see my wife's behavior as a grey area, perhaps she needed more time, but it wasn't really a grey area. She was not acting like a mother at all and barely acting like a wife. I did screw up over the years and that was not grey either. I clearly should have done things that I did not do. We are going to address that in therapy.

One final thing, if one of the adult children told me to stay out of their lives I would honor that decision. W has essentially told me that she doesn't want me with the conditions I have. I'm honoring that. She may regret it and I may regret it but she is not a child. She is making her preference loud and clear to all of us as each day passes and she doesn't even bother to contact the children at all. I have done as you suggest in this case. W told children she would work on the relationship in her own way, and that is what she is doing. I am not inserting myself at all and I will not do anything to sabotage her plan if she ever makes one.

TA,

I wanted to also say that I think we have a society where there is way way too much understanding of failure and not enough determination to meet standards. My children are all very successful, mostly happy, hardworking kids. Even the therapist commented on how mature they are.


My W actively said that she wanted our M to be unacceptable to me. Totally calm discussion, we each described where we wanted the M to be and the two idea's had nothing in common.

6:

I was surprised by the speed with which your M could be dissolved.

From filing to final in about a week to ten days is extremely fast.

As an aside, many BS's around here might be moving to VA soon.....

However, I believe that much of the advice that was given was given in the thought that if you did file, the process would take 6 months to a year, and during that time, your relationship could be worked on. It took you 20 years to get here, so taking a year to get out of it is not that unreasonable.

T/A has made some valid points. What's done is done. Your WW made her choice. There is a serious disconnect between your W and your family. Maybe the genes that women get for being for Family Commitment was missing in her and you got two helpings.

IF she knows what it takes to come back, then you have done your job. She had a choice in this, and she choose the open door. She MAY or MAY NOT know what her future might be. Oh, well.

Remember, she left a open cage. Don't lock it for a while. I fully expect her to return, once she has burned the cash and realized that it's a moonscape out there, compared to the lush life she once lived.

Please keep us apprasied of your recovery. Your story has touched many here. I would like to know how it ends up.

LG

LG,

The door is open to her with the children, her parents were over for dinner last night and that went well. They wanted to spend some time discussing her but nothing really new cam out of it. I do not blame them at all for any of this and I told them that. We had a nice dinner and the kids played cards with the grandparents.

I'm not open to anything like remarriage but we can certainly establish more of a relationship. Still no calls to the children. :-(

6, what if your kids come to hold different standards - ones that make sense to their own moral viewpoint - but which are not the same as your 'high' standards? Is there a point where you will you accept that it is not for you to set those standards for them, or do you see yourself requiring them to strain towards your standards for the rest of your life? If they develop for themselves a different, and 'lower' set of standards - with no sense of having failed to live up to your expectations - how will you deal with that?

I'm bothered by the nagging sense that you haven't shown yourself able to tolerate a conflicting viewpoint in someone with whom you have to negotiate in any way. Your kids are currently dependent and in no position to challenge you, but the day will come when they might, and it bothers me that you'll take the same route with them that you did with your wife.

Now this thing about control - it seems a matter of importance and pride for you that you control your emotions under any provocation. I'm not seeing this characteristic in the same positive light, I'm afraid. You see, I'm VERY well acquainted with men who keep the upper lip stiff. I married into a family where most of the men were or had been in the airforce (RAF). The ability to keep emotions under tight control was a matter of pride. It took me a while to realise that they were achieving this cool surface entirely by avoiding thoughts and emotions that would trigger a reaction. They'd closed off huge tracts of their emotional functioning. They were all very pleased with themselves, and pretty contemptuous of anyone who allowed themselves to be affected by their emotions. The result was...many hiddens affairs, one suicide (male) and several catastrophic emotional breakdowns (female spouses). When my MIL died after ten years of psychiatric misery, my FIL refused to go to her funeral, because it 'might be upsetting'. Heaven forbid one might lose control and show an emotion about the death of one's wife of over sixty years...

Many people control their emotions when they interract with others, in order to keep emotional temperature low and the situation workable. Letting emotions erupt is not usually helpful in business situations. However, this approach is not helpful in an intimate relationship, where knowing each other's emotional landscape is what the intimacy is built from. Hiding your own emotional responses destroys intimacy just as effectively as lashing out with violence. But there is a middle ground, you know. It's possible to feel your anger, irritation and fear, and to be honest with your spouse, without losing your temper or looking like a fool.

I get the impression that you are disdainful of damp, heart-on-the-sleeve, woe-is-me characteristics in people. You seem to despise people who give in to weakness or self-pity or incompetence. I get the strong impression that you've despised your wife from the beginning because she displayed such a lack of backbone and get-on-with-it spirit. Am I right?

A wise man is in touch with his emotions, allows himself to be aware of the full force of his anger, hurt and fear. But he doesn't REACT out of those emotions. He doesn't let his feelings push him into violence, shouting, lashing out. But he does take action. He uses those feelings to detect the problem, and then he works out what to do...enforce a boundary, remove himself from a bad place, request changes, negotiate.

6, you came here on the 29th August, calling yourself 6yearsleft and insisting that, no matter what, you were in the marriage till the kids left for college. Six WEEKS later, not six years, you're divorced. What changed?

Think about it. You're proud of your emotional control, but you seem to have acted almost entirely out of emotion in the last fortnight. Does this tell you anything about your emotional toolset?

TA

TA,

I do not think we can reach a common ground. You're not reading what I am saying or I'm not saying it very clearly. I feel emotions and I have ways of dealing with them. You accused me of lashing out at children and wife and when I said I don't do that and instead we have conversations. You read that as I quash all emotion and avoid intense situations. Men are not women, and I won't try to be one. If you think the female approach is fundamentally better then I will never live up to your expectations. I do not call names, I do not lash out, I am not violent (outside the gym) but I do deal with situations. Do you really think anyone can raise 5 children and avoid emotional situations? I didn't even really avoid the A, until it was clear that W would bolt if I kept pushing for a confession and the end of the A.

I have never despised W, not even now. I may be super functioning as you say. When a task is left I do it. I've never been one to portion out the work. I am the oldest child of two young working parents, I had to do lots of stuff because I was the one who could do it. I never despised my younger siblings. I didn't even realize the full impact on W of what I was doing until a few weeks ago.

I'm not sure what you mean by allowing other "moral" viewpoints. Morals are not negotiable nor are they just a viewpoint. If my children were to do something terrible like murder or child molestation, then I would not be on their side. I would not support them, I cannot love evil. Even though I am an atheist, I firmly believe that the commandments that do not talk about god are a good moral code. Basically don't do violence, and don't lie, and no adultery. Pretty simple and not negotiable. Some violations are forgivable, others are not.

In terms of performance goals, my children always negotiate what they think they can do and how they are going to do it. Included in that is that they can choose their own activities and quit activities when they don't want to do them. I am only teaching them that those choices have logical impacts on them. I think if you read the history you will see that I have never demanded that W perform perfectly or do lots of work. The real end to this was when she said she did not want the same outcome as me.

I also think that when situations change, then plans change. I was trying to keep an old plan with an entirely new situation. That was foolish and when I was calm enough to realize that, I was able to make a new plan.

6, I admit that I'm saddened how quickly your M was dissolved.

But, I just cannot comprehend the mindset it seems your W had. My earlier posts were picturing a mother who wanted to connect and didn't know how... it seems that wasn't the case so this was way over my head and so I stopped posting. You were in good hands, you certainly didn't need me!

I'm sorry if my earlier posts were off the mark. FWIW I don't discount the value of a good father, or the harm of a bad mother. I'm still sorry though that things didn't have a better ending. You and your family can begin to heal though. I hope you feel better than you did when you were holding it in, hiding that you knew.

I rejoice with abandoned's recovery *without* his toxic wife. It looks like you are in a similar category.

Thanks Jayne,

I'm not offended and I realize that no one has all the answers. I like to think about everything people say.

Also I've asked the moderator to move this thread to Divorced/Divorcing, not to run away but I'm going to need help with the kids from the people over there.

TA,

I am bewildered by this statement
It is like you are looking for 6years failure points. IT is like it could not be true that after 10 years and a WW that has no interest in the kids, him, marriage, that 6years could make a decision that seems "fast" to you. You are then setting up straw horses to suggest that he is inflexible, and yet there is nothing in his posts that suggest that he is.

I don't know 6years, nor do I know you, and none of you know me, but if the situation is as 6years has stated (and we have no reason to doubt it), then why would he stay a moment longer with a WW that does not want him or her children.

I would feel differently if it was just him, but the fact that she doesn't even call the kids, and the kids are angry at her for what she did IN FRONT OF THEM, seems to me to suggest that while 6years may be no saint, he has in fact made the best decisions with his limited knowledge of the future.

Could he be wrong? Yes he could. Could my reading of the situation be wrong? More like than he is wrong. But, you keep picking and picking and now he is intolerant of his kids, one of which is in college and another getting ready to go. Given what he has said, they don't seem to be chafing under his "moral" stance.

This whole thing is strange, but I wonder if people are having a hard time addressing a woman that really has no motherly skills, or interests. It is easy to think of men this way, but women being this way??? Harder I guess.

Please enlighten me TA.

God Bless,

JL

For some reason I think I pegged abandoned's wife pretty quickly, but I completely misread 6's. Maybe because Mrs.Abandoned showed actual signs of something, mental illness or instability of something... Mrs.6 seemed healthy enough, I guess just not interested.

That just boggles my brain.

He still hasn't rented Kramer vs. Kramer, to my knowledge, as I suggested.