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An excellent example of what happens to governments when taxes are raised..is this really what people want?

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23235.html


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121192942396124327.html

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Officials in Lansing reported this month that the state faces a revenue shortfall between $350 million and $550 million next budget year. This is a major embarrassment for Governor Jennifer Granholm, the second-term Democrat who shut down the state government last year until the Legislature approved Michigan's biggest tax hike in a generation. Her tax plan raised the state income tax rate to 4.35% from 3.9%, and increased the state's tax on gross business receipts by 22%. Ms. Granholm argued that these new taxes would raise some $1.3 billion in new revenue that could be "invested" in social spending and new businesses and lead to a Michigan renaissance.

Not quite. Six months later one-third of the expected revenues have vanished as the state's economy continues to struggle. Income tax collections are falling behind estimates, as are property tax receipts and those from the state's transaction tax on home sales.

Michigan is now in the 18th month of a state-wide recession, and the unemployment rate of 6.9% remains far above the national rate of 5%. Ms. Granholm blames the nationwide mortgage meltdown and higher energy prices for the job losses and disappearing revenues, but this Great Lakes state is in its own unique hole. Nearby Illinois (5.4% jobless rate) and even Ohio (5.6%) are doing better.

Leon Drolet, the head of the Michigan Taxpayers Alliance, complains that "we are witnessing the Detroit-ification of Michigan." By that he means that the same high tax and spend policies that have hollowed out the Motor City are now infecting many other areas of the state.

The tax hikes have done nothing but accelerate the departures of families and businesses. Michigan ranks fourth of the 50 states in declining home values, and these days about two families leave for every family that moves in. Making matters worse is that property taxes are continuing to rise by the rate of overall inflation, while home values fall. Michigan natives grumble that the only reason more people aren't blazing a path out of the state is they can't sell their homes. Research by former Comerica economist David Littmann finds that about the only industry still growing in Michigan is government. Ms. Granholm's $44.8 billion budget this year further fattened agency payrolls.

There's another national lesson from the Granholm tax dud. If Democrats believe that anger over the economy and high gas prices have put voters in a receptive mood for higher taxes, they should visit the Wolverine State.


Last edited by ThornedRose; 10/11/08 11:30 AM.

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Here is the tax system we have -- explained with Beer

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20."Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 ( 25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 ( 22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all.

The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists, lawyers and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics
University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.


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Hi TR,

Quote
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

Then,

Quote
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 ( 25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 ( 22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Not to be nit picky, but your a dollar short, I wunder who got to pay that? And yes that is how it works.

Hope life's treaten ya well.

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The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

TR - And that is precisely the problem with the Liberal's idea of income redistribution and taxation. It is the basis of their idea that govenment can Tax its' way out of any problem.

And it is the basis of Obama's "vision" of change in America, until the ones he sees as "footing" the big part of his bill decide to no longer "play" the game and choose to "stop drinking" as a way to save THEIR money. They are NOT required to keep on drinking, or footing the bill for others.


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If you need reminding of how things will be next year - this is from an Obama blog.

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You people who think McCain can still win need to face the facts. Obama will win and you will submit to the new world order. Obama will push the Global Poverty Initiative to fruition. You will all pay your fair share of taxes to support the needy not only here but around the world. It's about time that Americans stop living in luxury while many in the rest of the world do without. The party is about to end. Get used to it.

I am fairly well off cash wise - I think I will reduce my hours for a few years and pay less to the system.

As a naturalized American - I do get tire of the liberal bashing of America.


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Why can't some people understand that to spend money, you have to bring in money?

Gee, why can't I quit my job and buy a Ferrari? duh



Obama has said repeatedly, to the point that even I'M sick of hearing it, that he wants to cut taxes for 95% of Americans.

If you aren't rich, why on Earth would you be concerned about what the wealthy pay in taxes?


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Krazy -

How do you feel for those that pay no tax also receiving a tax refund from the Dem tax cut plan?

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Because the IRS says that nearly 46 million tax filers - one-third of all filers - had no tax liability in 2006, there is the question of how millions of Americans can receive an income "tax cut" when they pay no taxes.

This is the part where Obama doesnt want to speak. Not sure why McCain will not ask or refer to this. Definately disappointed in McCain's lack of tackling the specifics.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/13/obama-tax-cut-refunds-those-who-dont-pay/

Btw - this is respectful question - threads get locked up pretty quick around here.



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Originally Posted by Krazy71
Why can't some people understand that to spend money, you have to bring in money?

Gee, why can't I quit my job and buy a Ferrari? duh

Hmmmm...maybe because it's "too simple" for your average American Joe?

Let's see...what DOES Mr. Average Joe really think?

"If my expenses exceed my income, either I need to get another job, a second job, or I need to eliminate those expenses (even though I might like them, like dining out every evening instead of cooking at home every evening) and get my expenses below my income.

Cut programs? Naaa.. not the Liberal way of doing things.
Keep spending and add MORE spending? YES! THAT's the Liberal way. After all, THEY don't have to pay for it, they just shift the extra burden to YOUR budget!



Originally Posted by Krazy71
Obama has said repeatedly, to the point that even I'M sick of hearing it, that he wants to cut taxes for 95% of Americans.

And Obama is lying through his teeth. The "numbers" have bee "run" and there is NO WAY that "95%" of people get a tax cut. There is NO WAY that his idea of taxing ANY business that makes more than $250,000 per year is NOT going to kill small business. By the way, how come Obama has NEVER said what the basis of his 250,000 figure is anyway? Gross, net, capital gains, inventory....what?



Originally Posted by Krazy71
If you aren't rich, why on Earth would you be concerned about what the wealthy pay in taxes?

Maybe because Barack Obama's idea of "rich" is anyone who is NOT living in a little hut like his brother (who "gets by" on about $1.00 a MONTH income. And 'ol Barack, who wants to rob (errr...tax) you can't even seem to find $20.00 to send to his brother and almost DOUBLE his brother's income for year!

Maybe because I don't know of ONE "not rich" (read "poor" in Obama's lexicon) who has created ONE job for any other "not rich" person to earn a living at.

Maybe because the "5%" that he wants us to think of as the "Super Rich" DON'T need more money and CAN just take a vacation from the craziness of being taxed MORE than they already pay for being so "dumb" as to actually be prosperous and create more jobs. "Make more, pay more" has been the liberal mantra forever. Just look at the AMT (Alternative Minimum Tax) and see just how "wonderful" the Liberals are at "brack creep" netting them more taxes for their doing NOTHING.



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