Hi ears,

I've been having difficulty with my ability to post--but I've been thinking about you.

How are you doing?

Telly, I'm doing okay. My sister is out of the hospital, and asked if she could stay with me a few days, and H was good with that, as long as she undestood it was just a few days. I enjoy the company and the help, especially with H out of town. I come home and have lunch with her, and she makes dinner and cleans the kitchen. Because she was feeling up to it. She is going "home" today, to my friend's house. My friend is having a birthday dinner for me. I am glad to have friends like that.

I still feel like a failure when I think about separating. I'm doing my part, keeping an open mind, being O&H, meeting ENs. I rememer that it has made a difference before, for short periods of time, and it is calmer again for now.

I don't think you are a failure at all! You are the one person here who has given me the most courage to confront my demons. Gosh, why even think that?!

I'm glad you negotiated your sister there. That's a big thing!

When is your birthday?

Hi ears,

I'm trying to change my habit of: when I don't have much time, I post to a stranger cus I'm less involved. If I don't have much time, I want to post to the ones I care most about. *hugs*

I'm so happy that you negotiated your sister staying with you! It sounds like a win-win, especially with your H out of town. I'm so happy at the great strides both you and cat are taking!!!!!!!! I don't see any reason why you should think of yourself as a failure. You are finally taking huge steps to enforce boundaries, to protect yourself and your kids; and it seems it's having a positive effect!

Your attitude is your decision. Your life is your decision. You have the power to make GOOD CHOICES for your life.

I felt good reading that, Cat, I'm glad that's what you see in me. I feel like that, too, that I am addressing my concerns, in a respectful way, instead of a powerless, complaining, lovebusting one.

My birthday is today. DD12 remembered, gave me a big hug and sang me a song

H emailed me an email virus warning. I was already kinda down, trying to mitigate those expectations. Working to choose my attitude. I felt good about my response, respectful O&H.

"Thanks, hon, for the virus alert. I'm sad though, no "happy birthday" I feel forgotten. Those darn expectations again! I'm working on that."

Cat, maybe failure is a strong word? I do feel like I fall short of what I'm called to do here. To break apart my family, to do that to my kids, because my emotional needs are not met. The separation I accept, it's the what's next. I am working to keep an open mind, but I am not there yet.

Thanks, jayne, for the kind words and the pep talk We are having positive effects here.

Say what?! HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MY FRIEND!

Good for you for reminding H of your birthday. I used to wait and see if H would remember mine. And then 'get' to feel sorry for myself if he didn't. The problem is that it is passive aggressive to do that, you know? I was setting him up to fail so I could be better than him.

fwiw, I think you have gone way over and above what you needed to do. As so many of us, you have a...defective spouse, lol. You can only do so much.

Honestly, do you think your kids will be worse off if you separate? I don't! I stayed for D18, but found out recently she would much rather I had left him a long time ago. So it's not about not getting your ENs met; it's about not getting a safe, healthy home to raise your kids in. You know that. And you know you turned over every stone you could find, to reach a better solution. I'm actually proud of you.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MY FRIEND!

Cat, thanks for the warm wishes, and the dancing guy

H for the most part does a great job with birthdays and anniversaries, and it never occured to me that he would forget them. There was just one time that I wanted a surprise, for our 10th anniversary, and I assumed he remembered, because he always had, and was planning a surprise, and then he didn't. So I learned then about those assumptions. If we're together for our 20th, I will specifically ask him ahead of time for a surprise

Birthdays also go on the wall calandar that we look at daily, when we're in town. It usually comes up in conversation, and it did this year, when he planned to be away this week, and I asked him to consider changing it, and he did, and then changed it to be gone again, because DD12 has her first middle school play next week.

I'm glad that you're proud of me, cat. At the same time, I see what goes on with H and DD12, and I imagine her trying to navigate that alone when she goes to visit, with no mom in the house. What you said this morning, cat, really convicted me. I won't be there to defend her, to encourage her to share her O&H, the way that you are, by her side physically as well as emotionally. And I would be irresponsible to assume that DD7 will continue to be safe. It really feels like throwing them from the frying pan into the fire.

Thanks for sparking me to think through these fears. I don't know what the answers are, but I will pray and look for guidance on this.

So did you have a nice birthday?

Won't be around much today, have a huge workload. I'm trying to gather the courage to send H that email today. I didn't realize it would be this hard.

I had an awesome birthday, thanks! My friend had a dinner party with me and both of our kids, my mom, sister, one of my brothers, and another friend and her daughter. So relaxing! And I got some calls from my friends, too. Including THAT friend. But I was in a really good place, I could enjoy the moment, stay in today.

And the best part, I got my open mind back again. I feel like I'm flying, so connected and happy. I am starting to feel hope about a connection with H again, too. I don't mean like heaping expectations again. But I was feeling there like it was hopeless, and that felt fall short of what I am want to be able to do.

I am realizing that I didn't understand how badly the LBs were affecting me. I felt like I could tolerate a certain level. Until I realized that I can't. I am trying to make this work, in the same house, for now while we finish out the marriage counseling. With an eye to staying together if we can eliminate these LBs.

We got back from a weekend trip to Disney, and H was snapping and laying into me. He wanted to share a concern with me, and I told him, hold on, I want to go get that dialogue outline:

http://www.imagoworks.com/pages/Dialogue_instructions.html

That it helps me listen and repeat instead of feeling attacked and shutting down. He snapped that he will not talk to me if I get that, that he can't stand how I can't think for myself, and I need some stupid paper to tell me how to think. I listened and repeated that he saw looking at a paper as being told how to think. I clarified that the paper doesn't list a set of opinions, that it lays out a flow that helps me listen to him and think through my thoughts and stay in the present instead of feeling attacked and defensive. That it makes me feel closer to him and like I understand him better. I think this is where I get hindered, that it is hard for me to think straight when he is angry. Which is why I was retreating when he was in Attack mode. Instead of being able to communicate in conflict.

I understand that many folks can communicate well even when someone is angry at them. That their chemicals don't respond the way mine do. That is great for them. Maybe I wll get there one day. Today, it helps me to have something to lean on. If he wants to communicate with me without the pare, he will need to wait until he's not angry. That's when I remember well to listen and repeat.

I just remembered typing this out, there was another option that worked for us, too, and that was talking outside, like on a walk. H won't LB me as freely where there are lots of other folks around. So I do have something to suggest next time that H would be enthusiastic about.

But at the time, I went though the progressive enforcements, and realized that while I did feel better for sharing my O&H, I saw that H still had his claws out. So I moved closer to H, looked him in the eye, and in a low, calm, non-threatening voice put him on notice that this is his last warning this evening, that I will not tolerate this, especially in front of the kids, any more tonight. That he agreed in MC to get a hotel room when he went to attack mode. And that this is the last warning before I will expect him to carry through with that. It helped internally to I know I have a bag packed if he didn't honor my request. Because boundaries are around ourselves, and I have the power within myself to defend myself.

This was a big step for me, to move closer to him as an ally, to state what I needed, instead of failing to defend myself in anger and fear.

Ears, I've been following your thread whenever I log onto MB, which has been sparse lately. When I've been here, it's only been for a few minutes, so I haven't read all pages of your post. I did read this one however.

FWIW, I think you handled this situation very well, given your propensity to avoid conflict or to fail to guard your boundaries.

Do you think it would have been at all helpful to the situation to restate your boundary when he was snapping at you to begin with? I do not know how the evening escalated, granted. However, just by reading what you wrote, it seems that your H's behavior was disrespectful from the get-go...not just when he escalated it by calling you "stupid" and belittling your efforts to change your approach to conflict within your marriage.

Food for thought....just something I saw in what you wrote. Take care.

Diamonds, good to see you, and thanks for your presence. I hear you, and I'm not sure how you, LA, cat and jayne are usually so accurate on that stuff, when I hadn't typed up the whole thing. I had been responding minimally, and then when it got more extreme, that's when I realized that I was feeling flooded and needed to respond. I had said, "Stop that," "Ouch, that hurts," "Want to try that with a different tone of voice," "That's not how I'd liked to be talked to." Thinking on it, I hadn't been counting in my head at the time, but now that I am it was a lot more than the two I had told myself that I would go to before I go to leaving for the evening. I can see why I was feeling less than defended at that point. And I owe it to my M not to sink into "low-battery" mode, even after a long exhausting drive. To defend myself better, so I can feel good about my M instead of it feeling awful to me.

That was really great! It shows me, I think, the men and women get into this give/take where the man feels safer being loud and pushy, while the woman feels guilty doing that. So she gives up. Which makes the man more likely to be loud and pushy the next time, cos it works.

That was you respecting yourself, putting yourself equal to him. Telling him he'd better learn to respect you, too.

Thanks, cat. That "Separate and Equal." Finding that it applies in lots of places.

Cat, I feel like I should clarify something. When I got here, I was a big yeller when it came to my H. I didn't feel heard, so I Upped the volume. Not because it worked. It only got me stuff that I didn't want. Like despised, or ignored, like it talks about in that Dance of Anger book, about the fruits of complaining being just more status quo. it talked in Love Without Hurt that folks also get adrenalin from that, a source of energy. My mom was a big yeller, too. Sure got my attention, back then.

I wanted to say, too, that there was a lot of good this weekend. H has been taking initiative to do some things that really mean a lot to me, like holding my hand for a while when we were in the car. We had a lot of opportunity to talk about things we enjoyed, too, at the parks. And we are doing better parenting together.

Hi ears,

I am proud of you for remaining calm and standing your ground in spite of the fear; for not shutting down, and taking that scary step of the final warning. It seems you've learned from looking back, how you can improve on it next time too.

So if I understand correctly, there was a positive result from your "final warning"? Did he stop being in attack mode?

Oh yes, I hear you about the yelling, upping the volume when you don't feel heard. That's prolly similar to what I was just talking about yesterday, about not wanting to be b!tchy. (I wonder if "bitchy" gets censored; and if it does, how long before "b!tchy" gets censored...) I think I do something similar, retreating, shutting up, to avoid being the aggressive one. It sounds like you are finding a balance. That's great!

I have an apology to make, ears! I missed your birthday! When I saw it was your birthday I wanted to write something nice, and I never had enough time (so I thought) so I kept postponing... then it was the next day, and so of course I needed to write something even better... I kept waiting for a better time so as to write something better... then it got embarrassingly late...

*H*A*P*P*Y* *L*A*T*E* *B*I*R*T*H*D*A*Y* *T*O* *Y*O*U*
*H*A*P*P*Y* *L*A*T*E* *B*I*R*T*H*D*A*Y* *T*O* *Y*O*U*
*H*A*P*P*Y* *L*A*T*E* *B*I*R*T*H*D*A*Y* *D*E*A*R* *E*A*R*S*
*H*A*P*P*Y* *L*A*T*E* *B*I*R*T*H*D*A*Y* *T*O* *Y*O*U*

Ears:

Can I pick this out just a bit? It may be trivial, but I want to know what was going through your mind when you told your H that it was HIS last warning to honor your boundary. Was it one of equal partnering? Or was it one of parenting?

I'm not critizing, please don't take it that way. I just know that as I learn more about being half of everything and knowing my boundaries -- I am the one responsible for my boundaries, no one else. I can inform others when they approach my boundaries and I can respectfully ask that they honor them. If they chose not to honor my request, then I, and I alone am responsible for enforcing them.

The way I took what you said is that you were expecting HIM to enforce your boundary -- honor your warning, so to speak.

Am I off the mark here and reading too much into how the end of the evening happened? I'm just asking because I want to understand this exchange more. I hope my question and what I'm asking is coming through clearly. I don't have a professional's handle on boundaries, I'm still in school for that!! lol.

And I too, want to know if he then realized what he was doing and stopped his disrespectful approach....

Jayne, thanks for the birthday wishes

I had already gone to the other room, because he already was angry and seething, and he had come sitting in the same room, wanting to talk about his concern, that DD12 is a follower, not a leader, and he thought that she should get counseling. I hear you, this concerns you, and you are thinking through a plan to address that. Thank you for sharing that with me.

He got more angry, as I wasn't taking responsibility to agree with him about the counseling and agreeing to set it up. He said here is DD12 with a serious problem, and I wouldn't even acknowledge there was a problem. I wasn't assess whether there is a problem to address or not in the moment with his anger there. I would need calm to think that through. My first guess was that there was probably okay, but if he wanted her to see an IC, that would be okay, too. He started yelling at me that I just wanted to watch TV.

So I told him, I'm not going along with this hollering thing anymore tonight. That the next step is the one we agreed on, for him to go get a hotel room. He did leave me alone after that until he calmed down.

At bedtime, he was calm, and wanted to discuss this. I am good at discussing things with him when he's calm. He told me that he didn't want me to think that he would be the one leaving to a hotel. I reminded him that this is what he agreed to, if he got hostile with me. That this was the assurance that I need from him. He said, and if I get hostile, then I promise to be the one to go, too, and I agreed, then he agreed.

From there he wanted to discuss this about DD12 again. I shared my perspective, that to me this was not a problem there that she needed our help with. That IC doesn't help with a concern that the person isn't strongly motivated to address. That the best thing we could do for her is to identify the goals that are releveant to us and work towards them, and then when she has a concern like that, she'll know what to do. He didn't agree, but he felt better that we had dialogued about it.

I don't feel that it was parenting. We are equals. He made a commitment to me not to be hostile to me. We've done the me leaving and him being angry when I get home. And the me leaving and asking me to come home. Diamonds, I built a lot of resentment, realizing that I need to LEAVE my HOME to get safety. That is not a belief that I want to enforce for myself today. I think it makes a lot more sense as an intermediary step to request that he ensure my safety, and him make a free choice to respect that request or not. I am prepared to enforce that boundary by leaving myself if he is not willing to abide by that intermediate step. But I would like to give him the opportunity first to honor his commitments.

Thank you for clarifying for me. As I said, I wasn't critizing, I was asking to know and learn. I appreciate you answering.