I've seen in mentioned numerous times that we are all responsible for 50% of the state of our M, pre-A. I have a hard time with that one. I know I could have done things differently or better but I don't feel like I'm 50% responsible simply because there are two people involved. Anyone else have issue with this?

Yes. I have a problem if it is not true. That is a generalization only and is not applicable in every marriage.

BR,

Would you say you are half of every relationship you have?

LA

But, that question misses the point. Just because a person is 50% of the marriage does not mean he is contributing 50% to the trouble in the marriage. Some people are takers, some are givers and some are much more destructive than others. It also doesn't take into account if the person is a buyer, renter or freeloader. A buyer will contribute good, a freeloader bad.

I've always looked at it as I was 100% responsible for MY PART, whether that be 50%, 30%, etc.

MY PART = Whatever I contributed to the marriage.

Jo

No I think it varies from relationship to relationship. I think it is possible for one person to be much more responsible for its decline that the other.
That said, I do think that, in most of the relationships I know, the woman is more in charge of the social calendar and tends to initiate more of the bonding events. It might be sexist of me to say this but I think that's partly because women tend to be more 'emotionally intelligent' than most men. In my own marriage, my WH is not so much 'emotionally stupid' as 'emotionally illiterate' and so I accept that more of the initiatives will have to come from me.

Yes, I do. It is a generalization.

It takes two people to make a great marriage...it can take only one to screw it up.

Funny, I think the same thing about women. As it stands...one is no more intelligent than the other...it is just that we speak different languages and have different social needs.

That sums it up right there. When I look at myself and what I could have done, should have done, didn't do...I still find more fault with H that he was just more selfish and immature. I still regret where I fell short in our relationship but 50%? No way.

I can agree with that one.

ML,

Dr. Harley says we all have a Giver and a Taker inside of us. Not some being one or the other...both with different times, the Giver or The Taker being dominant.

As I've seen you say many times, enabling (Giver in total charge) is harmful, just as IB is harmful (Taker in total charge). Seems to me balance is what Dr. Harley asks us to shoot for.

My question to BR was to consider two whole people in one union...neither can be more than half of it...so neither can be more responsible (percentage wise) than the other...each have their inherent power and limits.

One person cannot be the whole relationship, or three-quarters of it...though they may believe they are responsible for more.

Do you really advise folks to assign and label who's contributing trouble to the marriage? Is that an exercise you found fruitful? If we're focused on measuring who did what the most or least...don't we miss the issues of what?

There's a payoff in a buyer choosing to stay married to a freeloader...and it works for them...until it doesn't. That's their half.

I'm having a hard time understanding where you're coming from in your post because AA and Alanon use the same big book. Same steps, really.

What's the payoff if the WS pre-A was 65% of the problems in the marriage? Does it help decide a BS to stay or cut bait? Require healthy new boundaries or not? What profits the marriage to affix a percentage? Doesn't that continue the blame game? You're more responsible than I am so....what?

To me it lures a BS again into thinking "I didn't deserve this, I wasn't all that bad" and that's great to look at again for thinking anyone could ever earn to be betrayed like that.

Sure doesn't change the climate.

I read Harley to mean we have equal power, same limits, as our spouse...great foundation for recovery and a thriving marriage. If your spouse is saying "I had an issue pre-A with this" and you hear "You're to blame for my choices" then who really is ready for recovery and who isn't?

A freeloader can give license to a buyer for other bad behavior...at times...be the shame carrier and the messup so the buyer can be the saint when needed. Each have the Giver and Taker out of control, don't they?

And they experience each other in the light of a ton of shoulds, shouldnts instead of achieving intimacy, through balance, going through conflict with awareness and commitment.

Even though I'm all-in for my marriage, have my half, my part...I'm not all of it. There's DH, me and The Marriage.

I honor it now, not carry it.

LA

Woman can be emotionally stupid or sappy, but I do find that men overall don't understand the emotional needs of their wives. Is that what you mean by we speak different languages?

I think the fact that the WS cheated is a strong indicator that he/she was a bigger negative in the marriage pre-A.

I'd say that not only is the 50/50 split of the blame a generalization, it's probably almost always the WS that created the lion's share of the problems before they cheated.

For example, in my last marriage, I was 95% responsible for the bad state of my marriage before the affair. That is simply a true fact. He was a committed buyer, I was a committed FREELOADER.

Fast forward to my current marriage, he was 100% responsible for the shabby state of the marriage - pre-A - because of poor character.

So, I very much agree with what Jo says when she says we are 100% responsible for OUR PART. Our contribution to the problem will likely be different, though.

Again...I feel the same about women.

Yes....it is about the different languages.

It changes nothing as far as the fallout that has to be dealt with and I'm not telling H he's more to blame than me. I have never done tit for tat in my marriage because not all things are equal in a lot of respects. H blames himself for his ill treatment of me pre-A and while I own up to my part I don't tell him I'm half to blame so he can feel better because I don't believe it. Maybe I'm in the minority but my H readily admits that his "reality" of our M pre-A was warped and he made issues out of things that were no big deal. I'm merely trying to see if I've overlooked anything and be as objective as possible about where I messed up to avoid those same pitfalls again. If it's all in my H's head, I can't really fix that.

I think that women, and again this is in general, are better at empathy than men and this is an essential element in emotional intelligence.
A personal observation about men and women: women want, in priority, to be liked, men want, in priority, to be right.

But you are ok with the BS so cavalierly blamed for 50% of the problems in a marriage? Or not? Wouldn't that be the "blame game?"

I agree there is not a payoff, but that is not the point. She is responding to comments about the widely used generalization that the BS is "50% responsible" for the bad state of the marriage. That may or may not be true, depending on the individual situation. Often it is not.

Blame is not productive, but taking accountability for one's own contributions to the problem IS and I believe that is what she is getting at. It helps no one to pretend like someone is 50% accountable when they are NOT. They only causes resentment.

It also does no good to tell a grieving BS they are "50% responsible" for the problems in the marriage, just after an affair, particularly if it is not true. Many find that quite galling and I can't say I blame them.

Frankly, I regret ever saying that each contributed 50% to the bad state of the marriage. It is an unsupportable generalization.

I think a better statement is what Resilient said: each person is 100% responsible for their contribution to the marriage. And it can't be said that BOTH made the marriage bad in every case. Often that is simply not true.

I disagree based on my own experiences....but have no illusions about being able to convince a woman otherwise.

Good. I like a man who recognises his own limitations. (but- try anyway!)