I caught WW in an A in June. Full story is here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=152398&Number=2110791#Post2110791

She insisted they were "just friend's". It was at least an EA, I believe PA for reasons stated in my posting above. She is now very much in love with me. She is really happy with all her EN's being met. I focused so hard on meeting her EN's, I didn't think about much else. Now my mind is starting to wonder about what really happened between her and OM. I know all Dr. H's books and philosophy is admitting everything. She has not admitted squat. What do you do with a WS who will not admit to anything? After full disclosure by your WS, did you wish you did not know everything? Was it worse?

I thought I could accept it and move on but as time is passing, it is driving me crazy. It bothers me more now than it did last month. If I bring it up, she will lie anyway. I do not trust her and I am falling out of love.

I know I'll get flamed for this one but, if given the chance to have an A with some of the females in my life, I would do it. Not as revenge but I just do not care about WW anymore. That is something I have NEVER done and would not have considered. I have very little felling left for her. I am wondering, if she admitted to a PA, would that help me get through this? Would it make it worse for me?

Try a polygraph test.

Her response to your request alone might tell you volumes.

Sorry Bud. WS's may NEVER admit the affair.

If you are looking to divorce. Get hard evidence. Try the polygraph thing, but DNA on panties is pretty conclusive. The DNA wont wash away.

I'm sorry that you got to this point.

Have you told her how you feel?

Jim,

If she is reading here you might point her to my story. It is sort of similar. I will tell you that you can reach a point with no love at all left. I have been there for a long time. Recovery was probably impossible for us anyway but I think the only real chance would have been for me to make a strong stand 10 years ago,.

I am glad I know everything. Some details hurt worse than others and accepting them may take more time. Not knowing and making up all sorts of "what ifs" would have been worse I think. Will I ever know every, single, teeny, tiny detail to the extreme of she said this and the H said this and then she said that and he said this...no but I have to the details I need and asked for.

DNA on panties? She must have 30 pairs. I can't take them all and have them tested.

I have not told her I am feeling this way. I have a solo session with MC next week and I will bring it up with him and go from there.

She is not on this site 6. I see your D was final yesterday. I guess it is good that you moved on. Ironically, yesterday was my court date if we didn't drop the D.

I think I'd tell her, in as gentle but straightforward a way as possible, exactly how you are feeling. And I would do it in a quiet moment at home without an MC and then give her space to answer.

CrushedJim,

Could it be that you don't crave the details of the affair or even really the admission of the affair specifically? Could it be that Openness and Honesty is now creeping into your top ENs as a result of what you have been through? Couple that with the fact that Dishonesty is always a LB and your tank is probably getting pretty darned low.

You absolutely have to tell your W how you're feeling. Go re-read about the Policy of Radical Honesty. You need to learn to be open and honest with her whether or not you stay M to her. Why? Because this is key to any successful marriage and if you don't learn it now then your next R will eventually suffer as a result.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_honesty.html

It sounds like both of you could use a good refresher course in this area.

Jim,

IMO, you need to tell her exactly what you said here. She won't know if you don't tell her.

BTW, the visuals my DH had prior to his need for all the details were worse than things actually were. IOW, he pictured things I never did during the A.

LC

Jim,

Polygraphs work, I took one, I would say 99.2% of the population can't fake an expert.

NJ

I agree I need to say something and she has no idea that I am feeling this way. She was really disconnected from me and PLAN A was mostly to get us reconnected. Now we are very reconnected but I think it still may be too soon. She will end up thinking something like "I knew the new you wasn't real" or something like that. I need to bounce it off the MC first.

If she reacts as you describe then she has no clue about the magnitude of the pain she's inflicted on you.

You have been emotionally raped. You have suffered a massive trauma.

You have images that play over and over in your head and you can't get them to stop.

You are obsessed with finding out what happened and where and what really went on.

You say it was only an EA. You sure?

You don't think it was a PA?

She needs to understand how you feel. She needs to know and you will have to tell her or it will continue to eat at you until you explode in a bad way.

She needs complete disclosure and to come completely clean about what happened and understand that she needs to answer any and every question you have in order to regain your trust.

Jim, you are sabatoging your recovery by allowing this lie to stand between you. Her lying about her affair and you not telling her you are falling out of love. Trust is impossible as long as she continues to lie to you and has secrets with the OM to which you are not privy. What she is doing is profoundly disrespectful and it will continue to erode the love you feel for her. You probably don't need to know each and every detail, but you need as much detail answered as you seek. Her willingness to do that will suffice.

If she is telling the truth, then she should be HAPPY to do a polygraph if it will mean some peace for you. Surely she wants you to have peace of mind?

There are consequences to dishonesty. Read this one in a Harley newsletter:

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair


Dear Dr. Harley,

I discovered my husband's affair in May. He was very repentant, ended it and has been working very hard on our marriage ever since. I was not familiar with Marriage Builders at the time and I just followed my instincts. I suppose we are in recovery.

But our communication skills are almost non-existent. We only talk about things that are "safe." My husband’s idea of dealing with his affair is to put it behind us. I need to talk about it to heal. I am still having nightmares and sleeping little. I know nothing about this woman, including her name. He has refused to give me the information because he feels it is over so what difference would it make now. He has agreed to counseling but has been dragging his feet.

Our communication skills are so poor that I can't even bring up his affair for fear of "rocking the boat." He will not read any books or discuss the reasons for his affair with me. I am terrified it will happen again.

We went for a few counseling sessions over a year ago (before affair, communication issues) and it was a disaster. It was so much psycho-babble that neither of us could stand it. Where should we go from here?

Please advise.

K. R.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear K. R.,

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bc
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

I second the "tell her " plan. I was at a similar point of giving up after x weeks of plan A. Things with us were improving as we connected more but I confused and unhappy.
For days I feared the outcome of revealing my true feelings.
In the end after an unplanned calm disussion session I was able to reveal my inner most thoughts that reflected the "REAL" staus of us as I saw it. It shocked my H as he thought we were making tons of progress .
Fortunately for me I felt relief at not having to pretend that all was moving along just like it should. It also allowed my H to see that I needed to see him do some of the heavy lifting for a while ( which he did). It allowed me to see more clearly why in the 1st place I chose to marry him and still continue to love and be with him.
Ofcouse nothing can take away the A and it still hurts at many triggers but I am not afraid to say when it does and more importantly focus on what it is I need to move past that trigger.
IMHO you need to put aside your fear of her response and speak your mind - radical homestly is the only way you will get unstuck from this quicksand you are sinking in.

You are correct, she has no idea.


I agree 100%.


I didn't think I said it was an EA. I think PA, she claims "friends". If you read my original posting, you'll see why I think PA.


Again, I agree. We had two problems. The A and my not meeting her EN's for years! I know they are tied together but because of her EN's not being met, coupled with the fog, she built up walls and I could not get through to her. She was ice cold and shut me out. The A was over on D-day. EP's in place and I am sure of that. But she would not talk to me. There was no discussing ANYTHING, nevermind the A or her admitting to anything. My first focus had to be breaking down those walls. That was done with a good Plan A. I was 100% on perfect at all times. It worked. She eventually softened up and I made true and sincere changes as a husband and father. I had missed it for years. She didn't believe the changes were real but they were. As time went on, she saw that the new me was real and we got closer and closer every day.

So now, the wall she put up has been knocked down. That part is dealt with. Now the A is starting to eat at me. I was so focused on getting those walls knocked down, I never thought about the A. Solo meeting with MC is Tuesday. She has not been going because she seems to think we are better. I really would like her to meet with the MC so he gets a feel for where she is before I take the next step and bring up my feelings about this.

I agree. She needs to know how I feel. I am just not sure if it is too soon to start that discussion. If you remember some of my other postings, I asked to hear from FWW's about them opening up. It seems that the guilt eventually gets to them and they confess. It seems to take 6 months or more before they do and I do not want to push it if it will come by itself. My fear is bringing it up too soon and ruining our progress.

Jim, you are setting yourself up for D-Day #2, friend. And let me tell you the biggest problem with this tactic of putting off honesty: when she does tell you the truth, you will be GUT KICKED right back to the Day 1 of recovery. You will experience D-Day #2. You will be starting all over.

This honesty that you await will put you both right back to D-Day.

I seriously question any progress you think you have that is based on dishonesty. "Progress" is not appeasing someone that is deceiving you. There is nothing progressive about that. That is not recovery, that is going along to get along. She might be happy to continue to deceive you, but that is not recovery. Recovery begins when honesty starts. Honesty is the solution to recovery, not more deceit.

I think its very destructive to settle for this state of DECEIT and fraud in order to keep the peace. Keeping the peace is being done at the expense of your marriage, Jim. She becomes more and more entrenched in her dishonesty the longer you put this off.

So, you see, putting this off is not effecting PROGRESS. You are simply putting off the START OF RECOVERY in order to keep the peace at all costs. And what a great COST it is, Jim.\

IMO, you are making a huge strategic mistake.

This is what it will take to effect recovery, Dr. Willard Harley:

* "The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous."

* "The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair."

* "All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy."

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair

Jim, will you please consider getting a new counselor? Such as Steve Harley? He has experience and qualifications in dealing with recovery after an affair. The fact that your MC is going along with this tactic of deceit, delaying any recovery whatsoever, is very alarming to anyone here who has recovered. This is not recovery, Jim.

My MC is not going along with this. He does not know that I am feeling this way as it just started over the last week.