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It seems that the guilt eventually gets to them and they confess. It seems to take 6 months or more before they do and I do not want to push it if it will come by itself. My fear is bringing it up too soon and ruining our progress. Jim - I'm not sure where you got that impression, but from what I have observed the "guilt" seldom gets to them.
Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
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It seems that the guilt eventually gets to them and they confess. It seems to take 6 months or more before they do and I do not want to push it if it will come by itself. My fear is bringing it up too soon and ruining our progress. Jim - I'm not sure where you got that impression, but from what I have observed the "guilt" seldom gets to them. IMO, the guilt hits hard to more than you may realize. The guilt about killed me and I have talked with many who at a certain point in recovery hit, what I call, the guilt stage. That stage is a hard one to overcome. It's when a person is out of the fog, realizes exactly what they did and they generally feel like dirt for what they did to the BS. I can think of several off the top of my head on this board alone who are currently in the guilt stage. LC
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Jim, you are sabatoging your recovery by allowing this lie to stand between you. Her lying about her affair and you not telling her you are falling out of love. My fear is bringing it up too soon and ruining our progress. During recovery we have all had setbacks, some bigger than others, but they will happen. Living with the feeling that after all the he// a WS had puts the BS through, that the WS would STILL continue to hide things from them is mind boggling. Those secrets will eat at you and your love for your W until you can't stand the sight of her. The idea that she still places her selfish wants and somewhat preserve her image above your need to the truth to help you recover will kill the love you have for her. You are only delaying the inevitable in not bringing up the subject. Don't let your fears rob you of your love for your wife. The resentment will be toxic.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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IMO, the guilt hits hard to more than you may realize. The guilt about killed me and I have talked with many who at a certain point in recovery hit, what I call, the guilt stage. That stage is a hard one to overcome. Yes, LC is correct, and I affirm her statement that there are many here who do feel great guilt - YEARS LATER. But, Jim, your tactic of going along to get along is probably going to PREVENT HER FROM EVER FEELING GUILTY. LC and the others felt guilty after the TRUTH came out, not when they were still lying. Your wife won't feel guilty as long as she is still emotionally invested in protecting her adultery. She is emotionally invested in PROTECTING WRONGDOING, not in recovering from the wrongdoing. As long as she is living a LIE, she will remain in the FOG with a wayward mentality. When one is protecting wrongdoing, they alter reality to justify it, which leads to the foggy mentality. If there is no wrongdoing to protect, then reality can be restored to normal and the fog eventually wears off. So, in the meantime, your marriage does not recover, does not progress. There is no such thing as a "recovery" that is based on DECEIT and FRAUD. Honesty is the first step, Jim, and without that, this is little more than an appeasement program to faciliate deceit.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Jim, if you have evidence of her affair, then why hasn't she been confronted with this? In my marriage, I NEVER asked my H if he was having an affair, I went to him and told him I KNEW HE WAS HAVING AN AFFAIR and don't bother denying it. Once he saw my resolve, he didn't even try to deny it, because I wouldn't have tolerated it.
Do you have EVIDENCE?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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IMO, the guilt hits hard to more than you may realize. LC - I understand the guilt. The context I am referring to is that the guilt ultimately motivating a WS to a confession, which is what Jim is waiting for. I am not saying it never happens, just that from what I have observed, it is the exception, not the rule. I just see too many BS's who are 6mos, 12mos, 2 years out from d-day and still don't have the whole truth. I see too many WS's here who feel guilty about what they've done followed by multiple page threads of them deciding that the best thing for them to do is to not confess. Are you saying Jim should just keep plugging along and eventually his WW will confess?
Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
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Are you saying Jim should just keep plugging along and eventually his WW will confess? Absolutely not. IMO, he needs to present his evidence to his W and also suggest a lie detector test. Like ML stated, he should tell her what he knows and not give her the chance to tell him this OM was "just a friend." and why. It's pretty hard to deny when the evidence is in your face. Jim, doing it the way you are doing it will eat you alive. Yes, it took me many months to come to my decision to tell my DH, but I did not do it on my own. I had been posting on a board that had quite a few BS's and they showed me why I needed to confess. I had many, many "reasons" why I shouldn't and honestly believed them. Once I really started to hear what they had to say I knew I had to confess. If your W is not talking with BS's I would not sit around and wait for her to feel bad because the chance of that happening is very small. Most likely she knows she messed up, thinks it's best not to inflict pain and may just hope it all just disappears. If things are going well she won't want to "ruin that" by telling the truth. In the meantime you will start to resent her and things will never get better because you will both be tripping over the big pink elephant in the room that everyone is afraid to talk about. LC
Last edited by lifeschoice; 10/16/08 10:32 AM. Reason: add a final thought
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In the meantime you will start to resent her and things will never get better because you will both be tripping over the big pink elephant in the room that everyone is afraid to talk about. BINGO! This is extreme conflict avoidance that only leads to deep resentment and prevents recovery. Conflict avoidance only causes more conflict.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Most likely she knows she messed up, thinks it's best not to inflict pain and may just hope it all just disappears. If things are going well she won't want to "ruin that" by telling the truth. In the meantime you will start to resent her and things will never get better because you will both be tripping over the big pink elephant in the room that everyone is afraid to talk about. Spot on. And the longer you wait to bring it up, the more likely she is to conclude that discussing the "pink elephant" reflects that "you will never get over it" or "you are unreasonable", as opposed to the fact that she never told you the truth.
Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
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Exactly. Take me for an example.
Married 23 yrs
WW-46
Me- 47
DD18
DD11
Dday #1 - Oct. 8 2006
Too many other D-Days to remember
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But, Jim, your tactic of going along to get along is probably going to PREVENT HER FROM EVER FEELING GUILTY. LC and the others felt guilty after the TRUTH came out, not when they were still lying. Your wife won't feel guilty as long as she is still emotionally invested in protecting her adultery. ML, Just to clarify,  I felt the guilt looooong before the truth came out. I started to feel guilty after Docp and I took a trip to HI alone without our kids and started to reconnect. This was 7 months after I ended the A and 8 months before I confessed. Edited to add a snippet from the Success Story thread: Posted on Feb 6-2007 In March 04 my H had a business trip in Hawaii and I went along. It was the first time in 13 years we had taken a trip w/o our children. To this day I call it our marriage saving trip. We bonded like we had never done before. I started working hard at improving our marriage and he was following along. It got to the point I knew, in all fairness to him, that I had to tell him about my A.
My original plan was to take the A to the grave, but I am NOT a person who can internalize anything. As our marriage improved my guilt grew and grew to a point that I couldn't take it anymore. I ended up falling head first over the deep end because of the guilt. I knew I needed to tell my H, but on the other hand I had FOM telling me if I told him I would be ruining 4 lives. I was so conflicted. I had what I call a proverbial ping pong game going on in my head, I have to tell my H, I can't he'll leave me, I have to tell, I can't, etc, etc. I became irrational in my thinking and very paranoid that my H would find out.
Finally in Sept 04 I saw a therapist because I felt like I was losing my mind. My H was not aware that I was having any problems or that I went to therapy. I hid it all from him.
On Dec 13, 2004 I sat him down and told him about the A. He said and did nothing for 2 weeks. I was so confused because I was sure he would have some sort of a reaction and I had hoped he wouldn't walk out the door, never looking back. He acted like he didn't care or so I thought. In all reality he did care, but didn't want to have the typical reaction. Finally after the 2 weeks he couldn't take it anymore and he wanted to talk about it. That night we talked for several hours and I answered every question he asked. I had been on another message board that has both BS's and WS so I knew the importance of telling the truth. The link to the whole thread is in my sig line. LC
Last edited by lifeschoice; 10/16/08 04:42 PM. Reason: add a quote
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Crushed,
I always get hammered here , but what the h&ll...
1) I got EVERY detail, and it didn't matter, I still fell out of love w/ her. She and I met all of our needs, but the love was seeping out. All the counseling/prayer in the world could not stop it. Its like the world central banks trying to stop the current de-leveraging. The practice is futile.
2) I had a RA right away. For revenge and to see if I could really do it. I knew once I did I was not in love w/ her anymore.(Just not possible)
3) Moved to an Apt, but left hope that we could still make it for a month or so.
4) Realized I could make it on my own, filed for D. I'm not gonna stay w/ an adulteress. Not in this lifetime, never, I will NOT live in misery, not me!!
My D Day was in Apr, so it sounds like you are right behind me...Dude
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Just to clarify, I felt the guilt looooong before the truth came out. I started to feel guilty after Docp and I took a trip to HI alone without our kids and started to reconnect. This was 7 months after I ended the A and 8 months before I confessed. LC: I remember your responding to my request for your story in a different thread and it really helped me. I know I have to bring this up sooner or later. I think pressing her for the truth earlier would have been a huge mistake. She was already checked out of the marriage, was out of love with me and wanted a D. There would have been no need for her to admit to anything. She would have looked bad and I could have used it against her in the D. I think I did the right thing by not pressing at that time. Now might be a better time and I will talk about this with the MC next week.
Change the changeable, accept the unchangeable and remove yourself from the unacceptable.
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Crushed,
I always get hammered here , but what the h&ll... Yea, you do but I appreciate the time to respond. I remember you being out of love right away. If you read my story, I have believed it to be a PA from D-day. I tried hating her but couldn't. She was meeeting all my EN's for years. Maybe your WW was not meeting yours so you were able to disconnect easier. I know I still love WW but at times I just have those moments where it drives me nuts. I am going to bring it up with her next week. I know she is happy now. She has a sparkle in her eye I have never seen before. I am meeting her EN's and she is a lot happier. She doesn't feel a need for the MC anymore but I am still going solo. She is happy so probably doesn't think it is necessary. She has no idea what I am going through inside though.
Change the changeable, accept the unchangeable and remove yourself from the unacceptable.
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Jim, I know I have to bring this up sooner or later. I think pressing her for the truth earlier would have been a huge mistake. She was already checked out of the marriage, was out of love with me and wanted a D. There would have been no need for her to admit to anything. She would have looked bad and I could have used it against her in the D. I think sooner than later is better, but I also think HOW you do it is what will make all the difference in the world. IMO, if you start out by telling her about the sparkle in her and how you are glad you didn't move hastily into divorce, etc, etc. Then as nicely as you can tell her how you are feeling. Add to that the fact you cannot get past thinking it really was a PA and why. Tell her, as much as it will hurt you to know not knowing is more detrimental to your relationship. If she still insists on it being "just friends" ask her how she would feel about taking a lie detector test. Her answer will be telling. If she says "OMG, why don't you trust me, there is no way I would take one", then IMO she is guilty. If she has nothing to hide she will agree to it. Like I said, it will all be in the presentation. If you come down on her with a strong hand then you will set yourself up for a battle. If you approach her in a calm manner, you may have much better luck. She may still say "OMG I can't believe you don't trust me, but whatever. If that's what you need then I'll do it." I also believe you need to tell her that even though SHE feels better and doesn't feel she needs MC you still have things you would like to work out because you are not feeling the way she is. (Or something like that). Be honest about how you are feeling and why. I was guilty of doing that to my DH, not even realizing what I was doing. I felt great, so thought he did, too. If you drag it out you are just torturing yourself. LC
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Crushed,
I could tell I would never get passed it right away. I could lie to her, but not to myself. I'm surprised I stayed at the house as long as I did. Nothing felt better than the day I moved to my apt. My life was starting fresh. I was leaving the nightmare behind. I sense you will do the same which is not the intention of this site at all. You just can't get passed adultery. A lot of men can not. I don't think its a bad thing. I stood up for myself. I feel so strong now. Did I hurt her immensely on the way out, yes. Was that right to do, no. It sure helped my sanity though. Knowing I cut her too on the way out. Then I exposed the A to everyone once I left. She won't do that to ANYONE ever again.
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...I sense you will do the same which is not the intention of this site at all. You just can't get passed adultery.... I do not think I am heading for D. As I mentioned, from day one I felt it was PA. I have sort of accepted that to be the case. What I am struggling with is the honesty. I need to rebuild my trust of her. My EP's are strong and nothing is going on now. Knowing this helps. But I need to know that I can trust her.
Change the changeable, accept the unchangeable and remove yourself from the unacceptable.
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I have kind of hit a brick wall here. I talked to WW and told her that I loved her more than ever and how I believed her involvement was a PA and what I needed what honestly. There was more to it than that but there were no LB's, DJ's etc. She looked at me for a few moments and I thought she was going to admit to a PA but she again denied it. She seems very guilty about what happened but she will not admit to anything. Over the years, she has always said if I had an A, our marriage would be over and how she only believe a divorce is justified because of an A. I know that the reason she had said all these years is because she felt unloved as I did not meet EN's.
I asked her a few simple questions about when communications started with OM and she did not want to talk about it. I think it is because she is really feeling guilty about everything she put us through. She eventually answered a few questions. She is really happy now and is fearful of going backwards and wants to move on. I am certain there is NC and has not been for 4 months.
Now I am kind of stuck. She won't take a poly and she won't admit it. I either have to get past it on my own or leave her. But I love her. I hate this.
Change the changeable, accept the unchangeable and remove yourself from the unacceptable.
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Jim,
What is her reason for no Poly? Cost? They do work I had to take one once, it was kinda like going before God.
NJ
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She is really happy now and is fearful of going backwards and wants to move on. BUT...this is not about her. This is about YOU and your recovery. You are trying to recover your marriage and that cannot be done until you have the truth. I would explain this to her and let her know this is your boundary if you are going to stay with her. Jim, this is information about your life to which you are ENTITLED. And it is the key to your recovery. So, please go back and explain to her that this is not about HER, but about your recovery and what you will need to recover. To not tell you is cruel and manipulative because it makes your recovery impossible. I would explain this is not a negotiable issue, this is your life.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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