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Ive long seen some distinct PA behaviors in my FWH. Ive gotten to a point where these behaviors, coupled with all the A baggage, have seriously eroded my LB. Ive got so little left, it is truly scary.

I sometimes feel like Im going nuts and have a difficult time figuring out "is it me or is this real PA stuff"?

Thats where I am at this morning. I need some help being able to verbalize how Im feeling and if this is real PA stuff.

My H and I are reading a book on PA behavior together so we can determine what the problem areas are for us. We were reading this morning. After we got through the chapter, my H was explaining some things to me about how he felt and then said :

"And, you should know I find you incredibly attractive and would like to have SF with you. We should schedule it for tomorrow".

I felt incredibly hurt by this comment and tried to explain to him how PA it was - offering up some intimacy and then snatching it away from me- he doesnt he it that way and is making me feel like I am the crazy one and being sensitive.

Help!


BS: Me, 43
FWH: 50
EA/PA with My Friend Jan-Apr 06
DDay: 4/29/06
NC: email 5/1/06

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Maybe you can turn it around, and have him visualize how he would feel if you gave him what he wanted, but then showed an ulterior motive.

PA is manipulation. For yourself. In other words, does he get a payoff from the comment, if you accept it? In this case, he would get SF.

Do you have other examples?

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JustKim Offline OP
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Hi Cat


Thanks for your reply.

Examples? That Ive got.

Lets see

1. Asking him to do something for me and he "forgets" or ignores it completely. Here is a specific example. Several weeks ago, we had a discussion where I explained to him that my love bank was critically low and I didnt really feel much love for him any longer. He reacted oddly, not very reactive at all but did make all sorts of promises to do better at meeting EN's. Its been several weeks and he has not mentioned this conversation, has not asked where my LB is and how I am doing, not even once. Is like he is punishing me for bringing it up by NOT addressing it.

2. Asking him to read a book with me about a problem in our R and he promises but then never does.

3. Innumerable promises that never come to fruition

The thing is, I KNOW it is PA behavior. I feel like Ive been gaslighted for so long and in such a clever way that I dont know which end is up.

I also know this man is incapable of changing and having any kind of authentic intimate relationship. What I dont know is why I've hung on. Thats what I am trying to figure out.


BS: Me, 43
FWH: 50
EA/PA with My Friend Jan-Apr 06
DDay: 4/29/06
NC: email 5/1/06

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His payoff is he's just avoiding doing what he doesn't want to do - have deep meaningful talks in which he is seen as the bad guy; avoiding having to read and try to understand some stupid relationship book that's just for people who have no lives; avoiding conflict with you by saying what you want to hear and then dropping the subject (thankfully!) because you never bring it up again.

From Cecil Adams:
Treatment of this disorder can be difficult: efforts to convince the subject that their unconscious feelings are being expressed passively, and that the passive expression of those feelings (their behavior) inspires other people's anger or disappointment with the patient, are often met with resistance. Individuals with the disorder will frequently leave treatment claiming that it did no good. Since the effectiveness of various therapies has yet to be proven, these individuals may be correct.

Passive aggressive disorder is said to stem from a specific childhood stimulus (e.g. overbearing parental figures, or alcohol/drug addicted parents).

From coping.org:
If others are being passive aggressive with me I can:

point out the behavior that indicates passive aggressiveness on their part.

point out the inconsistency between their words and actions.

pay attention to their actions rather than their words, then give them feedback as to what their actions tell me about their feelings.

ask for their true feelings reassuring them that there are no right or wrong feelings, and that it is OK to share negative feelings.

ask them what has them so intimidated that they fear sharing their feelings with me.

reassure them that we can reach a "win-win'' solution in our communication if we are willing to compromise.

defuse the competition in our relationship. It doesn't matter "what'' we are discussing as long as we respect how each of us "feels'' about what we are discussing.

remain open to any negative feelings they have and let them know this.

begin to trust what they "do'' rather than what they "say'' and let them know that I am doing this.

make myself more accessible to them.

help them lessen their fear of rejection from me by reassuring them that I really do care.

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JustKim Offline OP
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Cat

I hear everything you are saying and have read much myself. I suppose my real issue is that I cant bring myself to do any of this anymore.

Im utterly and truly out of gas.

I think more and more about personal recovery. How wonderful it would be to direct all of this energy and time I spend in trying to always "fix us" to my children, myself or other family members.

Im right there, ready to go. I even feel like Im looking forward to focusing on personal recovery. It just seems however, that I cant get the last few feet out the door.


BS: Me, 43
FWH: 50
EA/PA with My Friend Jan-Apr 06
DDay: 4/29/06
NC: email 5/1/06

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You owe it to him to tell him that.

If you can't do it to his face, write a letter and give it to him.

Give him one last chance to change, to seek IC. Then you can leave with a clear conscience.

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My ex is very PA. For so long I thought I was crazy. Maybe this sounds familiar. He'd say he wanted me to make more dinners. (I hate to cook.) So I would. I'd make things I know he liked, tried new recipes, etc. Of course, then he'd want to eat out, or all of a sudden didn't like a certain meal that he had before. He'd become so picky that I couldn't win. And if I ordered pizza he made that seem as if I didn't care about making him happy anymore.

He wanted to wash his uniforms himself, cause he said he worried about me shrinking them or whatever. Then he complained to family members that I'd never do his laundry, that he always had to do it himself. (He also didn't want me to smell the perfume that was on clothes.)

Just a couple of examples, and there were more serious ones, of course.

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Originally Posted by JustKim
"And, you should know I find you incredibly attractive and would like to have SF with you. We should schedule it for tomorrow".

That's like a line out of a bad sitcom.


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Cat

You are right, I do owe him this. Ive even said it to him. Generally, he makes all sorts of promises about changing, meeting EN's and does just enough to keep me around and then when it appears the crisis is over, it stops. While you arent wrong, Ive gotten to a place where its just words, whatever comes out of him mouth. I dont believe any of it.

SL

Thanks for your response. It *is* crazy making behavior, isnt it? I know all too well the feeling of thinking it HAS to be you and YOU are the one that has a problem. It can be very convicing. My exH ( Im remarried) was a very abusive person. I was an emotional mess for a long time because of his behavior. But, at least I know where I stood. My H's behavior now is in many ways much worse because it is covert and under the guise of care when in reality it is anything but.



BS: Me, 43
FWH: 50
EA/PA with My Friend Jan-Apr 06
DDay: 4/29/06
NC: email 5/1/06

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Krazy

Id find it funny myself if it werent for the fact that it was actually said to me.

My H had all sorts of excuses of why he said that of course.


BS: Me, 43
FWH: 50
EA/PA with My Friend Jan-Apr 06
DDay: 4/29/06
NC: email 5/1/06

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Well, then, he's one of those people who will only hear it when he sees his suitcase out on the sidewalk. What are you doing to prepare for that?

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Originally Posted by JustKim
Krazy

Id find it funny myself if it werent for the fact that it was actually said to me.

My H had all sorts of excuses of why he said that of course.

That's when you need to say something like, "Oh, I'm sorry...tomorrow I'm having glass shards implanted in my urethra. Maybe on another day when I don't have so many preferable options, we can have SF."


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Cat

I suppose you are right.

What am I doing to prepare for that? Well, Im only now coming to a place where Im accepting that as my only option so Im just absorbing it all. Its sad but Im not emotional over it- just resigned.

Im not sure what you mean when you say prepare? Prepare how? I know I will be ok - Im financially independent and make a good living - I can easily support myself and my children. The children arent his so there arent any custody issues there. If they want to continue to see him and he wants that as well, Im all for it.

Im most upset about failing. I want to set a good example for my children and Im failing.



BS: Me, 43
FWH: 50
EA/PA with My Friend Jan-Apr 06
DDay: 4/29/06
NC: email 5/1/06

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Krazy

Again.... nearly funny.

My H tells me he was being "funny" and he knows that he shouldnt get all "jokey". Its like its implying that I am humorless because I see through how he is trying to cut me down.

You know, now that I see it all, I cant get out of here fast enough.

What a fool Ive been.


BS: Me, 43
FWH: 50
EA/PA with My Friend Jan-Apr 06
DDay: 4/29/06
NC: email 5/1/06

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{{{JustKim}}}

You're not failing when you get stuck with something you didn't want in the first place. Honestly, teaching your children to leave abusive situations is MUCH better for them than staying and letting them watch it and grow up to do the same.

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Thanks Cat

Im not sure it appears abusive to my children. Funny thing is, it didnt to me for a long time either. Only now am I starting to realize that. I still struglle with all of it because it is so subtle. Can someone pretend to have your best interests at heart and really do this to you secretly? Thats hard for me to reconcile.

I think part of that is because of my previous marriage. It was HORRIBLY abusive. So, this being so much more covert its been very hard to spot.

If you met my H , youd think I was very lucky. He is smart, handsome and appears to adore me. He is very affectionate .

Its all smoke and mirrors though. He sold me an empty package and Ive been dragging that around for years, hoping the real deal will pop out as he sold. But it hasnt. And it never will.


BS: Me, 43
FWH: 50
EA/PA with My Friend Jan-Apr 06
DDay: 4/29/06
NC: email 5/1/06

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Believe me, I'm married to the same guy. And he IS a nice person. He just learned these 'skills' in childhood to get what he needs. Chances are he has no clue that what he is doing is wrong. Or it could be a perception problem. My H repeatedly tells me, when he's in a bad mood, that he has to do 'all' the work around our house. Seriously! He edges and sometimes mows. He sometimes takes out the trash. He sometimes cooks. The only other time he cleans is if there's going to be a party with adults, or if he's mad at me.

Anyway, I asked him not long ago if he truly thinks that he does all the work. He said yes! I said, how can you think that, and described my daily workload at home. He changed the subject. Because he wants to keep believing that he is the victim. That's what people with abusive tendencies do, to get what they want.

Don't forget that unless you do some real soul-searching, you will select a new spouse with the same quirks as the last one, even if you don't realize the signs he gives off that you're picking up on. Another thing you don't want to pass on to your kids. Most likely they were there when YOU grew up, and you learned it; just like your kids will, if you don't either fix it or leave.

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JustKim Offline OP
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Quote
Because he wants to keep believing that he is the victim

Wow - this just jumped at me. I send my H an article to read on PA behavior last week. He disputed nearly every point and went to great pains to tell me that he doesnt see himself as a victim.

He then went on to say that
Quote
why it seems that you go out to these web sites looking for stuff to accuse me of. I don't understand why you do this and it is hurtful to me.

After I called him on that statement, he STILL didnt see how he was portraying himself as a victim.



BS: Me, 43
FWH: 50
EA/PA with My Friend Jan-Apr 06
DDay: 4/29/06
NC: email 5/1/06

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There's a really good book I keep recommending that might help you. It's not exactly about your H, it's about abuse and control, but some of the initial material (i.e., their purpose, their needs, their weaknesses) is the same. It's very helpful. My H is more PA than abusive, but you still see all the symptoms in him that could apply to either case; it just depends on the person on whether they turn out to be PA or abusive. Both are forms of manipulation. At least that's how I see it.

Anyway, it's Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. It has helped a lot of people learn how to deal with such things.

And remember, if you're staying, you need to expect his Change Back! behavior as you make your changes to protect yourself. As my IC says, 'You've been propping up his bad behavior for a long time. When you pull away that support, he will either have to learn to stand up straight (change his behavior) or fall on his face. In the meantime, he will fight like h&ll to get you to stay the way you used to be - the way HE liked it.'

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Justkim, having lived with a PA for 19 years I can relate. This link really helped me. the boomerang relationship

Also the book "Living with the Passive Agressive Man". Sorry, can't remember the author.


Faith

me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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