You won't lose access to your daughters.

Your W is an alien and you have to give her a reason to change. Moping around jealous just feeds her strength and assures her she can get away with it because you are weak and obsessed with her.

Over the past week (since bouncing W out and letting her return) I have been acting quiet and confident, but doing a few small financial things showing that I'm getting ready for divorce. Also going out at night and having a social life (telling her where I am, not playing games).

Now she is initiating sex, and starting to express worries over her financial future after divorce given the pittance her new long hour job makes. Reality check. I don't answer, just sort of slightly nod, but she has heard my answer before -- "no sympathy, you should of thought of that before you [censored] the janitor.

Phil, I think, everyone thinks, that there is only one way to get her respect back and your self-respect back and maybe trigger no contact and reconciliation. You have to be willing to walk, and show her that in firm, certain terms.

Meet with a lawyer, tell her you met with a lawyer, and say you are unhappy in the marriage and you want to start the process.

I really doubt she'll say "ok, fine", if it is clear you are serious and it isn't a ploy.

But you have to be serious. And you should be. There can be no marriage without mutual respect. Respect is earned and not granted, and that is the first step here, both her respect and your self respect.

You have absolutely no clue of my feelings so your comment about mean-spirited is wayyyy off base.

When someone is standing on railroad tracks frozen in fear sometimes the only way to help is to push.

Why don't you keep comparing your wife to his and I'll try to help in my way?

Mike,

The moderators are NOT online 24/7

We have jobs
We have families
We spend time MB'ing with out spouses
We even SLEEP occasionally

We do NOT read every thread.

We rely largely on the members of this board to report offensive posts and we respond to those alerts as appropriate.

Criticizing the mods for not editing a comment YOU find objectionable on YOUR timetable is unrealistic and will doubtless be disappointing for you.

I hope this helps your understanding.

Sorry, not been able to post for a while, but have had a quick look over the weekend.

LA - No, not had the talk as yet. I spoke to a counsellor friend of ours who said to be careful with Ds as to how much I/we say. Utlimately it's up to me as to how far I want to go. 'Another' big day tomorrow and I will have a better idea of where I stand (I know, being a doormat)

iam - No, the financial implications are just part of the whole thing. They are not a major factor. The emotional ones are.

Mike - Again, always good to hear from you

Dufresne - Thanks. I know the mods do have lives outside of these boards!

So there is the P.A. AGM tomorrow at the school and W knows what that means. If she goes it's a deal breaker.

Good to see you again, Phil. Thank you for the update.

Ask your friend the counselor if this is reasonable for your teenaged daughters to be thinking...

You mean you didn't tell us what was really going on because we might feel afraid, angry, hurt? We already felt fearful and hurt because we knew something was going on between you and didn't know what.

We already felt shut out and excluded, lied to, but we didn't know why.

So you took the advice from someone who thought so little of our ability to be a part of this family and lied to us, instead. We didn't get to contribute, weren't acknowledged and we were intentionally mislead to be saved from pain.

Isn't that what Mom did to you all those months of her affair?

LA

I know, no progress has been made. I seem to be living for the weekends when I 'know' there will be NC. W is meeting all my ENs and I think I am meeting hers? I am guessing she is doing this to keep me thinking everything is alright.

The counsellor friend is a neighbour and cannot for professional reasons get involved. She doesn't know the details of what's been going on, just that my W has been seeing someone else. I can see what you're saying and I know that sooner or later we will HAVE to have the talk.

I know W will lie to me whether she has contacted OM, so there's no point in me asking her. I feel in limbo and all my sources of info are drying up. I guess I'll see what tomorrow brings...

One thing that did happen over the weekend was that I went for a bike ride with some friends, something for me. Thought we were going to be an hour or so but ended up being for over 3 hours! Came off twice but that's part of the fun. I kept W informed of what I was doing, should I have done that? At the same time W was out shopping with Ds doing girly things, which they enjoyed. Now I feel guilty that I was being selfish (which was what I thought I was meant to do, think of ME for a change) and W was having some quality time with Ds (well they would never go make-up shopping with their dad anyway!)

Sorry to ramble!

Hey Phil,

Well, we've had a long exchange, so you know that I feel you need to shake her out of this with firm action or you are going to be on the funny farm.

In terms of how to act on a daily basis, etc, read my signature, I've had it there for 8 years :-) Still true.

""""W is meeting all my ENs and I think I am meeting hers? I am guessing she is doing this to keep me thinking everything is alright."""

This is sort of an interesting one. Maybe meeting your ENs (like sex) is sort of burying a situation that is growing worse underneath? In a way what Plan B is supposed to help with, cutting off each others ENs (and LBs, of course)

SF was a "bandaid" for me, and I was staggering along underneath it from sex day to sex day. She had a power over me and she knew it, for 22 years.

A week ago I said let's give this a break on SF. I told her I had to get pictures out of my head while we were making love (OM) and I was struggling with it. So I stopped SF.

WOW! What a reaction from her. Asking every night, offering quickies, affection I've never seen, wanting to talk about it, counseling etc. I stuck to my guns in a nice way, saying it was just a bummer and maybe time would heal it.

Maybe she is, as someone said here "singing for her supper" to avoid a D. But it has definitely brought her out to deal with the broader problems in an enthusiastic manner I have never seen.

Thanks for the strength, Hugh Hefner....lol...

Guess what? Yes, she went along with Ds and got re-elected as vice-chair, almost a bit of irony there. She said there weren't enough other mums willing to go on the commitee and that if she wasn't going to do it other mums would not do it!

This isn't over by a long way. I'd skirted around it earlier in the day by saying to Ds that their mum might not be doing the PA anymore. The youngest got upset and I said that it was causing a problem between their mum and me, but didn't say why. That should have been my opportunity to explain things better, but I blew it.

I think constantly while I'm at work what I'm going to say to W and Ds but come the next day I choke and I don't know why.

Hopefully next time I post I will be able to say, yes, I've had that talk with WW and Ds and this is what's happening.

- P.A. and all school stuff must stop. So guaranteed NC at school

- Demand the truth about 'secret' cell

- Demand the truth about everything else. Last contact etc.

Does that sound reasonable? If any one of those 3 aren't agreed to then it's a sham of a marriage. So Plan B or D? Or a proper short Plan A?

Hi Phil,

I don't think yopu can sniper shoot this phone or that activity to get NC. If she understands and agrees to no contact, to help you and preserve the chance of a good marriage, then her life becomes and open book -- all passwords, change cell phone, take daughters on errands, etc.

Part of the reason for this is to HELP a WW in moments of weakness by making it difficult to make the sudden call.

But you are not there. She is cake eating and has no reason to stop it, until you make it clear you are walking. Other-wise she will keep getting her ENs met by both of you, no matter how miserable you become. In fact, your overt misery just emboldens her that you are weak and won't leave her.

Yeah, you can Plan A and hope her affair fades, but it seems to me you are well beyond that...your love will die, and trust me, it is like a switch being turned off.

Phil,


Which of these have you not asked for before?

Focus on what you said before...that her going to the school for the meeting was a deal breaker.

Your deal broke.

LA

Well I only broached the subject of the P.A. on Friday. I said I wanted her to quit and she refused. She says I should be able to seperate her A and the P.A. stuff, I replied that it wasn't me who put them together. There is a PA thing tomorrow night which she isn't going to, but she is going to one on Friday coming along with Ds and she said I should go along to help out if I want to!

I'm not sure if this is the bigger issue, of course NC means staying away from where he works, which would help! But I'm more concerned about the lying about NC etc. She won't own up to that, so what's the point? There isn't any trust or honesty from either of us.

I did say that I was going to tell Ds why I've asked their mum to give up PA and she said I would be involving the Ds unfairly?? i.e. using them as leverage against her.

I don't know whether I'm coming or going...

Well, a WW will rap you around your axle with justification and reasoning and crazy fogged talk. After D-day my W kept secretly contacting OM to "see if he was alright" because "they had been friends so long". What she really wanted to know is if he was on the street so they could hook up. But she was very convincing if you let the conversation go on.

In my case, it was past the point of negotiating. Here is the line, you crossed it, I'm doing what I said I'd do.

I immediately found that whatever the next line was in the next situation, she didn't cross it, knowing I was serious.

I'm finding it hard to break this cycle of apathy. Not sure if it's the anti-deps? I keep falling asleep at work, which isn't helping. I thought I'd be able to face things a bit easier on the a-d's but it hasn't happened. I'm not really sure what to do next. I'm not happy and feel that I can only move forward either with M or D if I know she tells me the truth, which isn't happening. Is she still in C with OM? I don't know for sure, but more than likely. Do I expose even if I'm not sure if A is still going on?

Sorry, just trying to get things off my mind by 'writing' them down...

Well.....everyone in our stage is in this amorphous fog of indecisiveness.

I had demands on my wife after D-day. Quit working at the school. She did. Passwords to emails accounts. She did. Take an STD test. She did. Give me the facst. She did, 90 percent truthful as time has shown.

But....

Move out. She wouldn't. (threw her out three times, she came back) Get on anti-deps. She wouldn't. (got the scrip, wouldn't take them) Go to MB counseling. Did, three sessions and quit..

In your case, you have a simple, finite test/requirmeent/border issue. Quit this PA board.

If it were me, and it has been, I would establish a reaction I would stick with, and then present it to her and again ask her to stop involvement with the school.

It shouldn't be a punitive threat, it should simply a be reaction to the "new" state of affairs presented by her consciously choosing to be involved there despite your request.

A step toward divorce, in other words. Something you WILL do, and not a bluff.

Right now I am slowly separating our finances, opening new accounts, and that has my W's full concern. I just present it as "well, no harm done here if we just start cleaning some of this up, no matter what happens."

What are her buttons? What scares yher? Telling the D's? Filing for divorce? Exposure to the OM's GF?

Thge conversation could gio, "Look, we discussed how it makes me feel that you are involved at this at where the OM works. You chose to do it anyway. To me this means you have little or no concern for my happiness or our marriage. So I am going to (whatever you decide....start a divorce proceeding, prepare the girls for it, separate finances.....etc)

Why does your moving forward with D depend on her telling the truth? She's not going to tell you the truth, she has no incentive to.

And why are working on M and D your only options? What happened to Plan B? If you can D, you can Plan B.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I think this is your best strategy. Give her three options:
- NC letter, quit the P.A., and actively work on attaining a healthy, happy marriage with you
- She moves out
- You move to another home with the children and she can move in when she's willing to take the first option

We already know she won't do 1 or 2.
So you'll be doing 3, which is better than a D. It will protect you from her chaos, it's less expensive than a D, and there's a chance she will eventually come to her senses when you're not paying her expenses while she conducts an affair right under your nose.

I don't think you'll do that, though. I think you'll continue to wring your hands and be miserable and wish things were different, while taking no action to make them different, until you absolutely cannot take any more. Then you'll have the expense of lawyers, alimony, and child support. You'll have a lot of work to do on yourself, getting yourself whole and healthy again. AND you'll have endured a lot more suffering between now and then.

I honestly don't see why you don't remove yourself from the misery and save yourself the expense of D (certainly in the short term, and possibly in the long term). Why don't you give her those three options?

I don't think just quitting the PA is enough now. If she did that, it would be a start. One way of ensuring NC at his place of work. But, if what she said is true the other week (about leaving her car at work etc.) and I have no reason to doubt that, then there will be other ways. She will obviously be on high alert about me 'watching her every move', so I don't think she would be so stupid to do it again. Not very soon anyway.

I want her to tell me the truth and if she can't, then I don't feel I can accept that. If she can't even tell me the truth about who knows i.e. certain members of the PA etc., then what bigger stuff will she lie about?

What scares her? The girls knowing would be one, and also Plan D. Or so she says, she keeps saying she doesn't want to D.

Plan B that's where I came in on Page 1! Perhaps I'm getting it wrong. So if I move out (with or without Ds) where do I prioritise my finances? I can't afford to pay rent for a place and pay the mortgage here. If I don't pay the mortgage here, it will get repossessed and I will get blacklisted. If I rent it will be nothing like the size of property here, not that I'm worried, but if I take Ds with me I need somewhere big enough. Isn't it unfair on them to move them away from their home?

You just said that your two choices were working on the M (which your wife won't do), or divorcing.

If you were to divorce, how would that look?
You'd put the house on the market and it might or might not sell. You'd rent or buy a smaller place for you and your daughters.

Other than alimony, child support, and legal fees, I really don't see how that's different from Plan B unless your wife's name is on the mortgage so that you can't sell the house without her cooperation or a court order (part of the divorce). If her name IS on the mortgage, and she refuses to sell, then you have to decide which is worse:
- Losing the equity in the house and taking a hit on your credit rating
or
- Continuing to live the way you're living

It's completely your choice.

Yes it's unfair that you and the girls might have to move away from your home. It sucks. It's unfair that your wife's affair is causing these repercussions. It would be unfair if you lost your job and couldn't pay the mortgage and had to leave because of lack of funds. It would be unfair if you were in a car wreck and became partially paralyzed. "Fair" is not a guarantee in life. We take the cards we're dealt, and we play them to the best of our ability.

While your girls would suffer some stress from having to make new friends and settle into a new home, school, and neighborhood, it's not like they'll be hungry, cold, or abused. They'll be loved and cared for. They'll be clothed and have full bellies and warm beds. The worst part will be wondering why Mom doesn't live here now, and why won't she give up OM so she can come live with her family. You can't control that. Your WW owns that.

The real question is, do you really want to enact change in your life, or are you content to complain and accept the life you have? Either response is acceptable. It is your life. You've been choosing the second option, and you can continue to choose it. It's up to you. You are in control. If you want change, make it. If you prefer things remain the way they are, continue as you are.

Yes, W is on the mortgage so I can't do anything with the house w/out her permission, unless it comes down to a court order. If it does come to that, more often than not, children stay with the mother. Of course I can contest that, and the children's opinions are taken into account. I can't see them wanting to leave their mum TBH, even if they knew what she is up to. They are both hitting puberty and will want their mum around for 'those' times rather than their dad, even though I wouldn't have a problem with that 'stuff'. I KNOW she would tell them OM is finished with, but how could I ever be sure?

I know that if I want to stay married then I will have to forgive W at some stage. Does time heal the wounds??