I think your WH will eventually come to his senses.

In time? IMO, that depends almost entirely on you. A WS nearly always needs to be knocked off the fence by Plan B. I know in your case it's far more difficult than average, but continue to be creative as you have been, and make it happen. As long as you protect your love while there's still some left, I think your chances are excellent.


Actually, HE is the one who has the trust problem. YOU'RE perfectly fine!


That might be true, assuming that he's not having sex with her at this point. And assuming she's been faithful to him. Either one of those is assuming way too much.

I took the coward's way out - I hid all other methods of BC, so there was nothing else but condoms. If I had been as powerful then as I am now, (ROWR!) I would have just straight-up told him what, why, and wherefore. It was his problem anway, but I was still carrying too much of it.

Yay for a good MIL!

I'd be glad to take a look at your blog. My email is you underscore neak at yahoo dot com.

My sister and I are starting a neat Bible study for the moms in our neighborhood. We're going to be studying mothers in the Bible, and taking turns writing a short story for each week. It's going to be fun!

How to Seduce a Reluctant Husband

This is a fun read.

Is there any reason we cant bump this one?
Maybe get a few new ideas and/or updates???

Lil

Neak, I've been reading your thread and I just came back here to say that we have another point in common. You mention miscarriages and fetal deaths. In 2000 we lost a baby. I went into labour 2 weeks early but when I got to the hospital we discovered that she was dead. It was a very tough time. A very close friend told me a story recently that I hadn't known before but it sheds light on WH. She and her husband came to our house the morning I went to hospital to look after our eldest daughter. During the day H rang them and told them the bad news. I knew he was resisting phoning our parents to tell them but it's only in recent weeks that I have realised the extent to which he avoids negative emotions. Anyway, that evening he came back to the house very late and only our friend was still up. He had a face of stone with no emotion showing. She was devastated by what had happened and, in tears, went to him to give him a hug, partly to console him and partly to be consoled. He pushed her away and she said that it was like an electric shock to her. I didn't know this before but now that we've been through all we've been through I can see the stepping stones that led us to where we are.

Hello Lildoggie, Any and all advice is welcome. I need it!

Update: We had a good talk last night about our relationship and I was careful to avoid talking too much about OW or at least to only talk about her in a indirect, side-effect sort of way.
He started off a bit pessimistic, saying that he feels that we have evolved in different directions recently even prior to the A and that just maybe, despite our best intentions, perhaps our relationship will not succeed. He also said that maybe we have both been damaged by what has happened to us. I asked what damage he had suffered and he said that he is very dissapointed in himself and that he no longer considers himself a good person. (This is good stuff for me!)

I told him that I love him very much and that I know he can make me happy because he has done for so long but that I can't make him want to. One of the problems is that he believes that their relationship started at 11.30pm on Thursday the 28th of Feb because that's when they had sex. (Remember he is a scientist and an emotionally illiterate one at that) I've been trying to convince him that the relationship started well before this time. (They'd been working closely together for 4 years prior to then and during all that time she claims that she was madly in love with him) Slowly and subconsciously they grew closer and closer and he hit a mid-life crisis (he admits that he had and still has a major problem with growing old). She was providing him with admiration (not an EN that I thought was a big issue for him before but I didn't see the mid-life crisis coming up), conversation (they work in the same field) and attractiveness. Slowly the relationship moved onto marital territory but instead of talking to me about it he started to look for ways of justifying his stepping over the line and started to see things in me that he loved before as negatives. Once he was over the line getting sex and affection there was no coming back. I don't know if he buys my theory but we ended up having sex (Neak, I have a coil so he knows that I am covered for contraception) and he tells me that he never stopped loving me and never lied about that no matter what else he lied about.

On a practical point, I have the OWs email address and her mobile number and I think I have her parents number (it's a reasonably rare name and I know where her parents live). Should I contact her or them? Or should I allow her to keep in touch with WH knowing that this will push us towards crisis point i.e. Plan B where he will be shaken out of his stupor and be forced into action?

Expose to her parents. Send them a copy of any hard evidence you have, as well. Ask them to give their inluence on the side of your marriage and your chldren's home.

I'm so sorry to hear about your baby. It is a hard experience to go through, but as Christians we have the assurance we will see our babies again.

Lildoggie, no reason not to bump the thread. It's not like my bathroom fixtures are any secret.

I have finally come around to the idea that Plan B may be the best way to go. (You have convinced me, Sugar, Neak and the others)
Here's what I was thinking of today. I was thinking of implementing it the first week of Nov for the following reasons:
1. OW is supposed to leave for Ireland then and in any case has handed in notice on her flat for the end of the month. This means that WH won't be able to move in with her. Of course they could go to a hotel but it's not the same.
2. I would have 2 weeks to do a good Plan A
3. This would allow us to do some to the things I have planned for over the school holidays; a few days away with the children and then PIL come to our house to mind the kids while we get away to sister's wedding.

I think that the best way forward is for him to move out rather than for us to move to Ireland. I was going to send him an email to work telling him that pending his breaking all contact with OW, we will no longer see each other. I will suggest that he picks up the children after school on Tuesdays and Thursdays (for example) and takes care of them while I go and stay elsewhere (I won't tell him where but if there is an emergency he can leave a message on the mobile and I will get back to him. He can also be with them every second weekend. The rest of the time I will be at home. I have a good friend who would be prepared to act as negotiator between us and she would be acceptable to both of us.

Possible problems:
- Despite his agreement to move out if there is contact between them he will refuse because he believes that he is doing all he can to ensure NC.
- Even if I do convince him to move out he will try to get in touch with me particularly when he knows I am at home with the children. Do I lock him out?
- Where would he go? A hotel?
- Do I need proof of contact between them in order to do this?
- How long do you think this situation should/will last?
- Do I expose fully to the children?

Anything else?

- Despite his agreement to move out if there is contact between them he will refuse because he believes that he is doing all he can to ensure NC.
This is a toughie for anyone wanting to go to Plan B while their spouse is still living at home.

- Even if I do convince him to move out he will try to get in touch with me particularly when he knows I am at home with the children. Do I lock him out?
Consult an attorney to see if you have the legal right to lock him out. You could lock yourself in the bathroom, or you might be able to file a restraining order - but you'd need a good reason.

- Where would he go? A hotel?
Not your problem, don't spend any brain cycles on this at all.

- Do I need proof of contact between them in order to do this?
No, all you need is to know that he is not totally open and honest, that there is no "No Contact" letter, and that other requirements you have (i.e. marriage counseling, sharing passwords, etc.) are not being met. Plan B is not to make your H do anything. Plan B is to protect yourself from the pain and insanity of the affair.

- How long do you think this situation should/will last?
Until he meets your requirements or one of you loses all love for the other and files for D. It may last for a week, it may last for two years or more.

- Do I expose fully to the children?
You should have done that in Plan A. How old are they?

Who is your mediator?
How will you handle visitation?
How will you handle finances?

Dear Tully,

I did not say earlier how sorry I was to read of the loss of your daughter. It does seem likely that it had a more profound effect on your family than was first realised. I am sorry that you lost her.

I think that the many reflections that you have been having need discussion, Tully. I would be interested in talking about them if you like, when you have solved this immediate problem of taking action to end the affair.

I don’t have long now, but having read your last post, I have a quick query for those knowledgeable about Plan B.

If Tully knows of no further contact (I think the last admitted was the long phone call), should Plan B still be implemented? Or should Plan B be held back until new contact is discovered, and only then implemented? What would be the reason for implementing Plan B if there is no proof of further contact?

If OW moves to Ireland (far enough away from your family, Tully, not to be available for quick meetings when you both go to see them), would it be okay not to go to Plan B?

I wonder whether Plan B is justified when there is no proof. I understand it to be a tool to take Tully away from the effects (on her) of contact and to protect her remaining love for her H. A secondary use is to stop her from meeting H’s needs, and to allow the weaknesses of the affair relationship to become apparent, hastening its end.

Will it work like that with no proven contact? Is it wise to apply it to deal with general uneasiness?

On the other hand, Tully’s H is saying some worrying things about his feelings. Is it okay for Tully to use Plan B to stay away from his (temporary) unhappiness? The things he has been saying about his feelings and what he perceives to be their longer-term problems must be having a bad effect on Tully. Is Plan B a good way of staying away from this hurt?

I think you need to use a model Plan B letter from this site, Tully. At least a couple are been discussed in this forum right now. Is email a good way of delivering it, experts? Is the BS supposed to avoid seeing the WS at the moment the letter is delivered? If so, a time needs to be arranged for the WS to pick up his things, when BS is not there. Should this be in the letter?

Where he goes is not the BS’s problem, is it?. His breaking Plan B by attempting contact with the BS does need to be pre-empted, however. Again, this has been dealt with many times here. I would read relevant threads, Tully.

It seems clear when Plan B can be ended in cases of contact: it ends when there is proven NC. If OW continues to live nearby, how could this be proven? Neak went through this, but I can’t make out from her thread the stage at which she felt happy with AJ’s commitment. Help, Neak?

If Tully cannot find evidence of contact now, how will she know when to end Plan B?

(This is my attempt at a short post?)

Quote:
Do I expose fully to the children?
You should have done that in Plan A. How old are they?

That's tight, turtlehead. Dr Harley says that he is "adamant" that the children be told, not only in Plan B. He says that the children know already that something is wrong and that he goes against the conventional therapist view that they should be shielded. He says that shielding them harms them.

The article on the website somewhere.

These are all exactly the questions I've been asking myself, Sugar. On the one hand it's hard to justify my departure if i have nothing concrete regarding contact but on the other hand I feel that his attitude is typically an addict mentality: trying to mentally wangle out trying to work on the marriage because his addiction wants him to do that. I had been relying on Dr Harley's opinion that it takes several months after no contact has taken place when no real progress can be made on reconstruction but that LBs should be avoided while waiting for withdrawal to finish. Or at least that's my interpretation.

Thanks for your kind words, by the way and Neak's too. Actually, I think I am over our loss now and although I have a little twinge every time I hold a new-born, it's really not that bad. WH probably has buried the whole thing so deeply that it would take major excavation work to find it. I'd love to chat to you though about my reflections about how and why we've ended up here.

They are aged 10, 8 (twins) and 4.
This is one area I have a problem with.
As an aside, I did try to expose to her parents, Neak, but when I rang the number the man who answered said that he didn't have a daughter of that name. It's the only person of that name in the town. They might be ex-directory.
But going back to the children. I don't mind telling adults and exposing to them but I don't want to discuss this with the children if WH is not in agreement (which he isn't) I may be wrong but my feeling is that they are his children as much as mine and something like this must be a joint agreement. We have told them that we are having problems and that we are trying to sort them out but that it's complicated and difficult. We haven't mentioned the existance of a third person and we haven't put blame on either of us.

It is your marriage as much as it is his, yet his decision to have an affair was not a joint decision.

Now, lest anyone thinking I'm advocating tit for tat, I'm not. And I do understand the dangers of Independent Behavior and abandoning the POJA. However, truth is truth, and honesty is always the best policy.

So they know there are problems, and you haven't lied to them and pretended everything is peachy - which is GOOD, because they'd see right through your lies if you tried to lie to them.

However, they just know that there are ambiguous "grown up" problems, which is pretty scary. If Mom and Dad can't fix this, what might happen? Who will take care of them?

On the other hand, if they know Dad has a girlfriend on the side, and married people really shouldn't do that, but Dad's working on it... well, they'll have faith in you that you're honest with them and that you'll stick with them and take care of them even when things get really bad. Because things are really bad, and here you are. They'll also give Dad the hurt and accusing looks he deserves.

Why are you taking on ownership of your WH's wrongdoings? You don't have to call names or be ugly, but he should own his actions. Protecting him from the consequences of his own actions does not help him learn to behave differently in the future.

Glad to hear that MIL is fighting the good fight with you.

My children are of similar ages and I told them what was going on without all the unnecessary details and kept it age appropriate. I never refered to OW as daddy's girlfriend. They know that a woman has hurt me, hurt them, and unfortunately daddy let her and he hurt us and her family as well. They also know that their dad loves them but he was selfish and wrong for doing the things he did. It wasn't a free for all about what a terrible person OW was.

Right away my son asked, "why would dad do that?" I told him I have no idea why people would want to hurt their family and loved ones, that I was very disappointed in FWH and I hoped one day he would be the good man I knew he could be. There was some basic conversation about right vs wrong, the choices people make and how they have to live with the consequences (gave examples that they could relate to and asked them questions), moral behavior and what it means to be married. At the end of conversation, my son told me that when he grows up and has a family that he's going to be sure he protects them because that's his job and he'd never want to know that he hurt his own family. I'll always be there to provide moral guidance to my children. It's my job.

I'm so proud of you, Tully!

This is truly your best shot at having the marriage you dream of. You can't recovery while he's not making the effort to protect you and help you feel safe. NC is the most important, most basic thing on your needs list, so he's not even to square 1 yet.

By removing yourself from his wishy-washy nonrecovery nonattempt, the issues will become very clear to him. And you will KNOW when he's serious, because he'll fall all over himself to accomplish everything you can hardly get him to pretend to do now, even at gunpoint.

Worst case scenario, if your marriage ends, (and I do not think it will), what have you really lost? You don't have a real marriage now. You have a gaslight. You have a cancer that won't go away on its own. What you're doing is brave and scary, but you are truly standing up for your family and children.

If you actually go into Plan B as quickly as 2 weeks, I would not bother with confrontation. Even if you discover contact, (there will be contact - the only question is whether you find out), I would recommend pouring all your energy into being attractive and fun while you get your Bomb-with-a-capital-B ready to drop on him. He's not going to get away with his contact, because doomsday is coming.

Turtlehead and Black raven, I understand this but still it makes me very uncomfortable at the idea of using the children. WHen it comes to the children, we have always been in agreement on what to do even if we haven't on other things.

The children seem OK with the situation, with the possible exception of the eldest. (It's hard to keep the twins still for more than 3 sentences) She has been very worried but I told her not to worry too much, that I have a good feeling that we can sort things out but that I can't promise anything because the problem is a big one. She has never asked me what the problem is and I get the impression that she doesn't really want to know because she finds it scary.

Update: Yesterday WH came home from the seminar to say that Big Boss (future boss of OW if she moves to Ireland) told him that OW will be moving to Ireland in 2 weeks to take up her position. This is a relief partly because she will be away (and not close to my family, Sugar, and we tend to be together most or all the time when we go to Ireland) but also because she must know that I can make her life very miserable if she continues to contact WH by telling BB about the situation. THis must mean that she is giving up. Or am I fooling myself?

If she does move to Ireland and if I have no proof of contact between them, then I would find it difficult to get support from family and friends for a Plan B. Everyone wants so much for it to work between us that they are also putting (gentle) pressure on me too to forgive and trust him. They all understand that NC is essential and even my MIL says that I would have no choice but to leave if contact continues but if he says there is NC she will believe him because that's what she wants to believe. Especially if it's hard for me to be specific about that conditions under which I will come back. I'm not fudging here but I need more clarity in order to implement Plan B.

For most of the next 2 weeks we will be together 100% of the time (4 days in a friend's holiday home and 5 days in Ireland) so contact is unlikely.
Any views?

Quote:
This is a fun read.

Too right it's a fun read, Neak! Actually, you should put a stronger warning on it than that; it should only be read in private. I printed it off to read on the tube home from work, and hard the hardest time not having a When Harry Met Sally moment on the crowded train.

I didn't finish it then. I'm going to do so just before bed tonight!

I don't consider telling my children the truth to be using them. I didn't tell them to punish my FWH. At the time protecting my children from FWH was foremost in my mind. With all the lying H did and exposed my kids to OW I wasn't going to spin the situation so H still looked liked a man his children could be proud of. I didn't go off on a tangent or try to make them hate their dad or choose sides.

Today, my kids are still very close to their dad and there is no rift in their relationship. Even when FWH was moved out, the kids still had fun with him. Of course you can do as you like, but I was tired of pretending their dad was someone he wasn't and wasn't going give some sugarcoated generic reason for the breakup of our marriage if it came to that. If FWH wants his children to be proud of him, then he shouldn't do things that would make them ashamed of him.


Have you asked your DD how she feels or if she has any questions? Maybe she's afraid to ask you because she doesn't want to hurt or upset you. Perhaps she thought since you didn't offer a reason that she's not supposed/allowed to ask simply because you are the adult. It's no different then telling your children don't ask adults how old they are because it's considered rude; if they wanted you to know they'd offer it. Your impression of MIL was that she was weak and would crumble upon hearing her son was a cheater and look where she is today.