QNL - That is exactly how I feel about my WS. Her behavior over the last 3 months is so tragic - she is headed straight down on an elevator to rock bottom and she doesn't realize it. This isn't my W. Whether we R or D, it will always break my heart to see her hit bottom.

Morning, all!

I should be working, but am needing my MB fix! Trying to catch up with everyone, but I'm really far behind.

Busy weekend. Dinner Friday w/V. Nice. Saturday Harley ride in the afternoon up a riverside road - a slight chill in the air but the sun was shining so it was really nice. Sat outside for lunch by the river. Rode up the bluffs to a winery/patio. A guy playing guitar & singing,,,lots of people, and a really nice afternoon with a good bottle of wine. Rode back & stopped at a fun bar, met lots of nice people & came home really late. Did NOTHING all day Sunday but try to recover. Not used to being out past 10 o'clock!! ha!

I'm just not really comfortable yet with the whole dating thing. I had a good time both times. Yet there's still something that doesn't feel quite right. I have yet to put my finger on it. I'll let you know if/when I make any progress in that line of thinking,,,,,,,,,,,

DD seemed to have a good weekend overall, with the exception of getting in trouble when some roughousing with Drac got a bit out of hand on her part. Seems she hit him in the face and he got very angry with her. She is very sensitive about that kind of thing.

Sometimes the things she says really take me by surprise. She told me she wished she was 16 so that she could go to college and move. I asked "why the hurry? You told me you'd stay with me forever." She replied that she does want to stay with me forever, but that if she was 16 and in college, she could move and then she wouldn't HAVE to go to Daddy's"

WHAT??

Now part of that could be the disagreement that they had, but it still bothers me that she says this stuff. Then,,,,,,,,,,later she tells me that she would give back every present she's asked for for her birthday and Christmas if Drac & I would get back together. She has at least one comment like this per week, if not more. It breaks my heart every time.

I don't know if this is siginificant enough to push counseling, or if it is just something that is a part of the process. Overall she seems happy & well adjusted. No temper tantrums or acting out - - no problems with school. She's good for me at home. I hate that I can't really share with Drac,,,,,,,as I belive the key to this does lie with him. I just know how he'd handle it if I shared this with him - he'd confront her and she would either lie or shut down about it all. It may be necessary to start counseling so that he can be brought in and a third party can coach him about how to handle things. Something I'm strongly considering.

The good news is that other than Friday when he was supposed to be off work, but he went in to work anyway (leaving the kids @ a sitter for a while), he did spend the rest of the weekend with them for a change.

I had to email him about trick or treating schedule. Both our small towns have trick or treating Thurs & Fri next week. He'd told me about their town parade being on Friday. The regular schedule has her with me Thurs and with him on Fri. So I emailed that we'd go over here on Thurs. He replied, "I already told you that that is when we have trick or treating in our neighborhood with the parade the following day".

So, what? Does he think she should be over there both days? I simply replied with the information that they have trick or treating on both Thurs & Fri.

My email also had to ask him about keeping her during an out of town trip in Nov. He said it would not be a problem.

Final item was what I plan to buy her for her birthday. His reply was that he's already bought her a bike (Yeah,,the man that has NEVER bought any gift in advance,,whatever). The funny thing is that on Fri when he went to work & left the kids w/the neighbor, they GAVE her one of their girl's old bikes! His email said, "This is why I was upset about The X's giving her that bike." Like I am supposed to know that he was upset about it? LOL! I thought it was kind of funny.

So, it the exchange just made me really sad. It's still all about Drac getting what he thinks is 'reasonable' or appropriate. He loves to put out there that he's wanting to be flexible, as long as things go his way it's all good. I know he was mad about the Halloween thing,,,,as DD told me after she talked to him last night that he was a "a crabby b*tt".

Do immature waywards ever grow up?

I'm just glad that I have enough going on in life these days to keep me pretty busy. Less time to waste on the wayward crazy thinking process. Hate that it bothers me at all,,,,,but it is getting a bit better.

You haven’t let go yet. You have a nagging doubt you’re betraying a marriage that does not exist.

V’s not standing on the porch with flowers and wine on a beautiful summer evening knocking on the door, he’s storming a well defended castle in mid-winter.

This is it, for me, in a nutshell. I was thinking on the way into town this morning - I still love him.

And when I'm out with someone else, I constantly feel like I'm going to be "caught." KWIM?

How stupid.

But I also I realize that I don't love HIM. I love the man I remember and just as in death, you revisit the mourning from time to time.

There have been many times over the years that I have been experiencing a special moment or just one that is joyful and I think "I sure wish Grandma was here, she would really enjoy this." Grandma has been gone for 13 years. I still miss her and definately still love her.

I think the same thing of WxH every once in a while. Wishing he was there and experiencing the moment with me. Knowing what was happening in the moment would please him in some way.

As we've talked about before - it's harder with the waywards because the body of that person that we loved still exists.

You're doing well, Bugs. I sure feel for your LadyBug. I know exactly what you mean when you consider talking to Drac about it. WxH would do the same thing, confront and DDs would withdraw, deny, or have their bad feelings added to, and feel as though I betrayed them.

Chin up, Bugs. You are an amazing woman and I'm grateful to count you as a friend.

Fox

Yes,,,,,I think you are right. Seeing it there in black & white that way makes me feel rather stupid.


WOW!!! There's a mental picture. I'm picturing myself as the wicked Ice Queen in the top tower,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not in a good way either.





Yep, but it KNOWING it's stupid doesn't change the facts of the feeling does it?

I keep thinking about LG's comment the other day about short arming everyone. I don't want to do this, but I'm not so sure that I'm ready to drop my arm yet.

It makes me mad, too! I think I'm going through a bit of the old "I SHOULD be over this by now" phase. I "want" to be over this by now. Thus, the whole discussion about draining out the Love Bank.

BTW - Luna- Plan B IS about not having to do that for most people. And it's about being able to reserve/protect some love for them until you choose not to any longer.

For ME,,,,,,,,,,,,I want to be past WANTING it anymore. I can't seem to hold hope in reserve somewhere AND find the ability to fully open myself to someone new at the same time.

For now, I'm just trying to see Drac more clearly than ever. He's not the person I want & my DH seems less than likely to ever return. As you say, Foxxy, it's mourning the loss & having the moments we'd like to share with the one we love.

Overall, our communication has been pretty Plan B like with the exception of the football games. Drac has used them as opportunities to attempt the friendly co-parenting thing. I've been pretty non-receptive. This last week, in fact, he was acting a bit different,,,in that he finally seemed to notice. He seemed uncomfortable for the first time. He was sitting wringing his hands tightly which is one of the things he does when he is nervous or upset. Of course, that could be his being angry that DSS hasn't gotten much time on the field. I caught him watching us from the stands when I took DD to the bathroom - and he'd even moved seats while we were gone so that he was sitting behind me (I'd moved one row up from him previously).

I don't know why I even bother to take note of such silly things or why I care. I just do.

So, this Sat is the last football game of the season, so there will be no need for any FTF contact until next Spring at DD's softball games. I think this will do me a world of good.

He did mention via email a week or so ago that he's planning to take the kids to Florida over Christmas and that perhaps "we could sit down and talk about this in the near future". Nothing really to discuss as far as I'm concerned. He knows what the scheduled times are for him to have the kids. He can schedule their trip during any of that time.


I told a friend this morning how it's amazing to me that Drac can still effect me. That it bothers me still that this person who supposedly loved me so much can treat me as such an enemy. Why do I even care?



I don't know. I just know that I do. I also know that someday, someway, that will pass. It's better than it used to be, but it's not over for me yet. And that makes me AND all at the same time.

Here I go, breakin the law again--big brother is having lunch and it's my lunch break, so THERE!!!

Bugsy, about this


The answer to much of why Drac still affects you is right there in bold. You preserved the love you have for him, and now that your plan B isn't dark as night, it's eroding, and it's painful to witness and feel. When you open yourself up, and the love bank starts draining, and the disdain you have for your WS grows, you WANT the love bank to run dry so that you can be done with him/her and all that PAIN. THAT is what happened with the Z, except it was DURING a false recovery, instead of a time of Plan B and separation.


When I'm at football practice and games, I could care less what the Z does or says. I'm not cruel, but I have no interest in talking to him. There's really no need.

I have come to know that the MB method is not for the faint of heart or those who lack tenacity. It is BRUTAL on the BS. Now that I'm on the other side of things, I feel a sense of calm and peace, knowing that I did put my best foot forward and took that tough, high road. There are days, however, when I feel as if I wasted TOO much energy on the Z. I couldn't know that until I towed the line, though. Good ole hindsight

No, it’s not wicked to defend your castle against invaders. And as long as you hold onto to the idea that R can be achieved and you still want that, some part of V will always be an invader in your mind.



And some day when you feel it is time to let go you will lower the drawbridge, abandon the barbican, lift the porcullis, have a fish fry with the boiling oil and we will all go punting on the moat.

Chris,,,,where do you come up with this stuff? Another post from you that required me to get out the dictionary!

portcullis - A grating of iron hung over the gateway of a fortified place and lowered between grooves to prevent passage

barbican - An outer defensive work, especially a tower at a gate or bridge


So, my day is complete now that I have learned 2 new words!!

Seriously, I realize that you are right. As is our Law Breaking Friend, SL!! (thanks for taking the risk on my behalf!:))

Frankly, I'm not 'worried' about this as I have been in the recent past. I've somewhat accepted that it is what is is for now.

I don't HAVE to do or decide anything, in any way, about any of these 'relationships' right this minute. The only pressure there is on me is what I give myself or what I 'allow' myself to accept from anyone else.

It's hard not to do that "If only" additional comments/thoughts. If Only Drac would do or see or say or think or feel,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,. Not going to let myself go down that dead end.

There is also the "if only" *I* could do or say or think or feel,,,,,,,,,,,,,Again a path that I don't need to be on right now. Not going to beat myself up for how I feel or don't feel about any of it right now.

The sun is shining. The birds are singing. I don't feel the need today to gargle with bourbon,,,,,,,,,,,,,,life ain't so bad!

I don't what the he11 that means, but I'm sure it violates TOS


Oh, and count me in

Hey Bugs,

I'm trying to catch up on your thread, but doing work at the same time.

I just wanted to stop by and say thank you for what you said to me on my thread. I have been working very hard at looking at my behaviors, reasons etc and have come up with some stuff.

I admire you ability to look at what is said and whether you like it or not, see if it applies, accept where it does or discount it when not.

You are someone I respect very much.

{{{{{{{{{{BUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I'm with you on this, Bugs. I'm really struggling with it, but I realized the same thing driving in to work yesterday. I want to not want this anymore. But I'm afraid to.

It will come when we're ready.

Bugs

Bugsy:

I wanted to comment about this:


Why did he move? Why did he wring his hands? Why did he....

Because he is facing the reality of his choices and actions.

DSS schoolwork is falling apart...
DD doesn't really like hanging around...
Bugsy is really starting to darkening up her Plan B...
Bugsy IS dating and that news is getting back to Drac....
The "friendly Plan D" where we just get along isn't turning out to be true...

He really, really wanted to put a better "face" on the sitch.
And it ain't happening.....

Ouch. That really hurts Drac to realize this.

Bugsy, you have REALLY passed beyond what this little old discussion board can do to help you recover your M with DH. I really think that you need to spend some time with Steve or Jennifer and really get a proper plan. SDGuy talks about how Jennifer advised him to send a little letter or note telling the SCQ that he still loved her and that there was a way to fix this.

Drac gets NOTHING like that. He gets lukewarm Plan B or Dark Plan B or even Plan A. Its a tough place for you as well. One day you will reach indifference like SL. It will take time. I don't recommend that you pander to his every possible opening, thinking "Is this the ONE? The ONE that will open us to the future?" That's why I recommend that you talk to the Harleys. Maybe your reluctance to do so means that your don't think that even that minimal investment is worth it in Drac. And that might mean that your Done-O-Meter is really really high right now. Making indifference that much closer.

Main point? Call the Harleys. And if not, then you ARE going quickly along that road, and that's OK, (If not moreso!)

LG

I agree completely with what LG just said.

Your Done-O-meter is not pegged. Some part of you still wants recovery.

Talk to Steve. Describe Drac's behavior to him. Let Steve help you figure out what it means and what the implications are for you.

I honestly can not say that I am sure one way or another about this. I suppose my thinking has been that IF there appeared to be any indications of changes in Drac that I'd consider another call to Steve. Seeing minor little things (which could easily be my own imagination), just haven't been enough to warrant making the call.

THEN,,,,,,

I haven't really thought in terms of calling Steve to discuss how to work things for MY own recovery VS possible M recovery.

THAT would certainly be worth the investment, now wouldn't it?

Honestly, the board has been and continues to be my invaluable sounding board. LG, while you may be right in not being able to assist directly in recovery of my M, you all are the key to my sanity in the recovery of my life. Just sounding off here about whatever my random thoughts are and knowing I'm not alone helps me more than I ever imagined!

Thank G-d for this and I second it.

This is what I hope, if somewhat naively:

Steve has seen this a zillion times before. They understand wayward behavior better than anyone else.

Drac broke up with the Ho, which was the big break. It's been xx amount of time since then. You did some stuff. You said some stuff. You put your cards on the table. Drac reacted not the way you were hoping, but he didn't go away either.

Since then, Drac has done some stuff. Said some stuff.

You have some things to report. Maybe Steve can put together that data into a picture that says Yes, recovery is still a possibility. Or maybe he will tell you Look Bugs, you gave him a chance, but he's had enough time to come around and is still doing X instead, so you should run, not walk to the nearest exit.

That's what I would be looking for.

I just wanted to let you know that I understand where you are, Bugs. The "I should be over this by now" stuff, I deal with that all the time. I am embarrassed to admit I started going to Divorcecare, I shouldn't need that, he's been gone three years. My kids don't know where I go on Mondays, I told them it was just a church thing. If it got back to exH that I was in Divorcecare, I would be very embarrassed.

Of course, that sounds screwed up, wouldn't it be wrong of me not to need some guidance grieving my marriage??

I tried a little bit of dating, but I felt shady. I knew I would take my ex back if he wanted, so it didn't seem fair to date.

I am also divorced (final 1/07), it is a dark but 80% amicable relationship. We can do a quick call about kid schedules, he hangs around for about 5 minutes when picking up the kids (as opposed to waiting in his car or insisting on a neutral location). For a long time, all I asked for was the same consideration he would give a cashier at the grocery store. OK, I have that now, as long as I don't ask ANYTHING of him or remind him of ANY responsibilities (There is a tax debt situation, I can't talk to him about it, so I just got a lawyer to deal with it).

Would I want to reconcile?? Only for the kids sake. I know nothing about who my exH is these days, and from the little I have seen, he has nothing to offer me as a spouse. But I would listen if he ever wanted to talk, I would like a little more closure, but I have given up that exit interview as an item on my wish list.

The love bank slowly drains, like watching a loved one die of a long terminal disease.

One thing that Divorcecare has taught me is that I have come a very long way. My group has a lot of "newbies" in it and I see the old me in their pain. So I can see progress, that is good.

(((Bugs)))

SD,


Ahhh,,,that is certainly something worth hoping for! Thanks, SD. I'm going to sit down and gather my thoughts over the next week or so in this regard. I always try to 'summarize' a report before talking to Steve to get the most out of the time we have. Once I have that together I can better evaluate the when/why of that session.

Jean, thanks for your post. I'm sorry to hear that you are also struggling, but I think it's Fantastic that you are going to DivorceCare.

Yes, the old "I should be over this" is something most folks can't understand & it can feel quite embarrassing. I have a few close friends (including my mom) who are understanding, but even then, I keep my comments mostly to myself.

As you see in DivorceCare, we look at 'newbies' and are able to see progress from where we started to now. That is something to hold on to and to be proud of.

I think during my kid free nights tonight & tomorrow it may be time to re-visit my list of things I LIKE about myself, things that I consider such wonderful Blessings in my life, the things that I have Changed for the better, and start a new 'things I want to do" lists.

Bugs needs an ego boost and a look at the future.

Hope everyone has a great day. No goofing off here like yesterday for me! It's a definate buckle down with work day!!

I think many of us who have been around this long or longer and still want our H to come home feel this very same thing.

It's like what is wrong with us that we don't let go and move on. Or look at us, how much we loved our H and believe in G-d and trust him that he can bring them home for R. Just a thought, but certainly I understand it.

One thing though, when I think it, Mimi reminds me, who says we have to be over this. Why are we listening to what other people say. In the end how we complete this chapter in our life is left up to G-d and his plan for us. One thing I hold onto tight as you do is it's certainly going to be better than what we have now, maybe even magnificent.

Self-reflection is always good and helps us to ask G-d where we are going in his his plan for us. Its also a way of seeing our progress and taking care of ourself and being proud of how far we have come.

And you have come SO FAR.....

Hi Bugs,

Just dropping by to say HI. Following closely how you are processing your current situation. You are getting some good advice and insights. And I would agree, it might be helpful to you to see what Steve H.'s take is on it.

As it has been suggested, with OP out of the picture, Drac may just be starting to realize the reality and consequences of his choices... If he thinks that he has poor judgement and has made poor choices....he may not be ready to make any OTHER decisions for the moment!


Yes!...this will help get the focus back on...YOU! ...and that's good!

Bugs