What a great list, cat, true to your integrity And I'm SO relieved that you feel safe, too

I rmember you saying how it reduced you to tears and worse when he was angry at you. Which is a perfectly normal reaction. But it would be much kinder to yourself to try something new here. Do you have a plan of how to detach? Maybe a mantra you can repeat, a friend you can call, prayer, go to the gym, listen to music, do something active at home? I forgot what you do to recenter?

Perhaps him saying over and over that he's not angry is a way to let you know that he is listening even if he doesn't agree. After all you have told him how you don't like when he blows up during discussions.

I hope so. I agree that he really is afraid of me being angry and/or leaving. I just don't know if that fear can override his need to defend himself. We'll see.

fwiw, he didn't even bring up anything when I picked him up from the airport this morning (1am). He was really glad to see me. And he lost his prized possession in San Francisco airport, a little camera he keeps on his belt, and he didn't blow up about it. Just said that maybe someone will turn it in. Not one word about all the thieves in the world and how nobody will do the right thing...

So maybe he's trying to control himself.

Hi cat...

Well, I haven't really been a fan of your husband, but...

I have to admit his letter made me so so sad. I saw my husband in the writing of it--and frankly, it does not paint so good a picture of how you and your daughter are handling these things...

Cat, you are entitled to have an opinion about what happens with your daughter... but right now, you and she are making all the decisions. Your think the main point is that you ad d don't feel safe talking with him--and it sounds like he actually feels the same...

he needs respect... does he REALLY get th respect and admiration he deserves? Is it possible that you are actually hurting him? Perhaps it seems his concerns are juvenile... maybe they are... but I know they are shared by many men... furthermore, he probably does have some insight into boys that is better than yours given that he was one... Women tend to make too many allowances for men--the reality is, he could be giving Daughter some good instruction and direction if you and she could listen.

btw, you seem embarrassed by him (at least his writing). That's sad, if true.

Telly, I think that Cat and her daighter do listen to, validate, and respect her H's POV. Doesn't mean that they have to agree or abide by it. They are all sharing their O&H as a step in finding the POJA together. POJA is not, "When I tell you to jump, you say how high."

Telly, you are right. We have bypassed him on some things. I'm not proud of it, but IMO, I'm doing good to even still be with him. If I were a stronger person, I would have left him many years ago.

Or else, if I were stronger and had things like MB at my disposal long ago, I would have learned how to handle things better. I would have stopped him from bullying and manipulating us and shown him that he will need to negotiate with me so that there was a healthy, fair relationship in our M. I created the problem by not letting him suffer his own consequences decades ago; because now, he thinks that what he does is always right and everyone else is always wrong - because I protected him from the knowledge that everyone thinks he is a jerk. And no, I am not making that up. He has left a trail of disgruntled people in his wake.

You will notice in his letter that everything is being done to him. In this instance, he is telling the truth, as far as D18 and me managing her time with boyfriend without him. But it applies to everything else in his life as well. It is how he protects himself. If the street in front of our house floods, our neighbor filled the gutter with his trash. If our yard develops chinch bug patches, it's because the other neighbor started it and walked on our yard, spreading it; either that or it's because I didn't mow correctly, and I spread it. If the alarm sensor on the window quits working, it's because the Mexicans did a sh*tty job. If his boss doesn't give him the raise he promised, it's because the evil coworker sabotaged him. If the car he drives (my old one) messes up, it's because I didn't take good enough care of it. If D18's boyfriend doesn't put his shoes back on after H tells him to, it's not because the boyfriend sheds his shoes at every opportunity and doesn't realize that we have had problems with stepping on metal shavings - it's because the boy is intentionally thumbing his nose at H. If it takes H four years to finish renovating our old house before selling it, it's because his bosses conspired to make him think he'd get fired if he took one or two of his 6 weeks of annual vacation to get it done, and thus couldn't. If we find ourselves $150,000 in debt because of it, and because H hasn't been paying off his credit cards for 25 years but adding to them, it's because the banks are a bunch of crooks and manipulating the economy to turn us all into slaves.

I don't claim to be a saint by any stretch. But honestly? I've been taking care of him better than his mother ever did, for 30 years. I do every stick of chores except what D18 does and edging the yard, and an occasional carpet cleaning (because he says I don't do it right) or meal, or an occasional project, such as rebuilding D18's car. Every time he does work on the car or washes a car, etc., he expects me to stop whatever I'm doing and stay by his side and be gopher for however long he works; and I do. And I rarely ask him for anything. Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds like he's getting day to day respect from me in making his life as carefree as possible.

As for D18, well, I don't know what to say except that he makes her miserable. When she was younger, things were ok because it didn't occur to her to question anything. And I never questioned what he wanted because I avoided confrontation; all our trips were trips that he wanted; our weekends spent going where he wanted to go or working on whatever project he wanted, or watching the tv show he wanted. So everything was fine with him because we both wrapped our lives around his. But now she's starting to fight for her independence. Until this year, at age 17 1/2, he has refused to let her go anywhere without one of us. He criticizes all her friends, makes nasty remarks about them, even sexual remarks. If she questions one of his decisions now, he blows up and says things like "I should have just stayed at work; nobody wants me here; you just want my money." All she talks about at IC is her dad. And occasionally her friends; but mainly her relationship with her dad. She used to be outgoing and cocky and sure of herself, but in the last 2 years, since he started clamping down on her and criticizing her, she's done a 180. So I'm trying to mitigate.

Which other decisions are you talking about, besides her riding in boyfriend's car? I'm not remembering other occasions. If it's just the car issue, well, I can't sit by and watch her spend her senior year trying to navigate around something like his decision not to let her ride in his car just because his car looks like a hotrod and because he wears basketball shorts. I've stood by and let him make all our decisions for the last 30 years, just to keep the peace, but I won't teach D18 any more that it's healthy.

I never questioned his knowledge of boys. I did question the logic of banning her from bf's car based on such reasoning. And we have been listening to his opinion about boys for a good 10 years now. How all they want to do is have sex. Not a single one is worth dating. (except Eric, and that's only because he's a bigger prude than our daughter) How they all lie. Believe me, that is all we've been hearing since she was old enough to even think about boys.

I'm not embarrassed by H's writing, so much as embarrassed for him. I don't want anyone thinking he's not a brilliant man just because he is dyslexic, or whatever makes him unable to learn to read/write at least on a business level. (another thing I've protected him from, as I edit everything he writes before he sends it to anyone, and read everything for him, because he can't do it himself)

Sorry I'm not living up to your expectations, but I'm doing the best I can. Somewhere between wanting to kill myself just to get away from him and actually abandoning him...it's the best I can offer him right now.

I understand how you think he's this poorly treated misunderstood soul, based on what he wrote, but that's just who he is. He's a victim. I truly think it's impossible for him by now to see things any other way, he's been doing it for so long. He's had a dozen opportunities to listen to me about our problems and consider looking inside himself, even when I've been sitting on the ground with a knife in my hand, and he chooses to defend himself and place any and all blame on the rest of the world, including me. Sure, I can handle my side better. That's why I'm here. When does he start handling his side better?

"When does he start handling his side better?"

Not your problem to own, cat. You have your boundaries. You don't have to accept unnacceptable behavior. You can do this!

Cat, how is your self-talk? Flylady had an excerise where for one day, you catch the negative comments that you make about yourself, and then rephrase them. Jayne's Tools to Life group has a rubric:

Is it true?

If no, then let it go.

If yes, then say, this is true, but I have the power to change it.

I find when I stay on top of my self-talk, then I catch DJs sooner, too, so I can acknowledge it and make amends as I go.

I'm sorry, telly. I shouldn't be snapping at people. This is just such an emotional week for me I don't know what I'm doing.

I know full well I'm not the greatest wife. Because of not standing up for myself, my life has devolved into one where I find any little chance for self-gratification. For instance, and sorry for the DJ, but if D18 wants to go to the mall, and we know H will make fun of people there, criticize others, gripe about his job, or just get mad about something, I look for instances where I can take her without him going. That's not respecting him.

The correct thing to do would be to set rules for our family where no one gets to, or needs to, be negative, and have boundaries and consequences, so that he learns that we would want to spend more time with him if it wasn't so painful. Kind of like Senator H's thread.

I'm trying to learn how to do that, after a life of avoidance. I wish I would have done it years ago, so I wouldn't feel compelled to sneak in little bits of pleasure when he's not around. But like I said, I consider myself ahead that I'm even interacting.

I'm trying to do better.

Wow, you had quite a reaction there, my friend.

I'm sorry you're having a rough week.

You're not failing to live up to my expectations, cat... what difference does my opinion matter in your life, really? My guess is my words reverberated somehow in your head as blame.

I think your marriage stinks. You know I do--I've said that before.

HOWEVER, you are choosing to stay with him. (at least for now). Given that, you have to deal with all the resentment and anger that underlies your interactions.

The reality is, he feels like he is on the outside looking in. From your perspective, he is so "in" that no one can escape him--his opinion, his words, his prejudices, his fears, his control, etc. I think you're both right. You've painted a good picture of life with your husband, and I agree--it SUCKS.

What I suspect you're not seeing, though, is that you probably ally with your daughters in subtle ways to protect them from him. I don't recall specific examples, though he gave some in his letter too--but I do have a vague sense that you are like me in that your whole WORLD revolves around protecting everyone from your husband in some way... Helping your daughters know how to deal with him. Sure, it's his fault, but can you also see how that sucks for him?

He wants his family to trust him, to respect him, to look up to him... didn't you post on SEnator H's thread about how you don't give your husband the admiration he wants, because you DON'T admire him? And what if that's the VERY THING he wants from you? What if that's what he's wanted forever.

I think your husband has issues, clearly. I think you do to, or you wouldn't be with him (just like me staying with my husband). And I believe I've told you in the past that I think you should leave.

If you're not going to leave (at least now), then it's good for you to learn how to protect yourself from his craziness (the things you're learning: ouch, walk away, etc). But it's also important for you to (as I mentioned) to figure out how to let go of past resentments, hurts, angers (30 years worth), or you will never be able to see him for who he is... You'll never really be able to make this marriage work.

Do I think you're entitled to feel hurt, anger, pain, resentment, etc? You betcha I do... (I think *I'm* entitled to feel the same, for what it's worth). But that's gonna kill you in the long run.

If you are going to stay with him, you HAVE to figure out how to stay out of the way of him and daughter. If he makes a decision you don't like with regard to daughter, instead of convincing him why he's wrong (which is all your letter did, in my opinion), tell your DAUGHTER, "I guess DAd feels strongly about this. You should talk to him about it".

Let go of managing everything for your family. Even being embarassed "for" him is a way of managing him... You have to get off that merry-go-round, cat.

I hope this has made some sense. I care about you. I think you're in a [censored] marriage, but... that doesn't mean it's hopeless. You'll only really know if it's hopeless of not once you've had a long period of time where you aren't managing everything for the family... In some ways, you seem to do it well--in others you seem like you're oblivious to how much you manage.

I'm not trying to sting you, cat. I do hope today is a better day.

PS. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are a "great wife". It's hard to be a "great wife" when you're miserable with your husband (believe me, I know).

But you have learned some bad mechanisms for dealing with a sh*tty situation. And you have to unlearn them.

Edited also to add: I know that you feel like your daughter needs you to step in... that's how my mother felt for me. But I would have preferred she let me duke it out with my Dad, even though it sucked.

She's talking with a counselor. She's got you to talk to. She's got friends. She may decide she's just going to "hold on" until she's 18, and then take off. She's a tough kid. You don't have to fix it to empathize with her and to let her try and fix it.

I don't know, cat. Maybe my advice is bad. I think my best advice to you is that you leave... but if you're not going to do that... then you have to just take care of yourself and be there for your daughter.

In the meantime, (you have answered thsi), but what are the chances of FAMILY counseling taking place?

Cat, why dont you believe you can leave him?

I dont understand.

You stay with this monster. But why? Get strong,, leave him, what does he ever do for you?

WHEN will you leave him?

Get a plan for leaving him and do the steps in order to leave him and live apart from him.

Dont you deserve to have a decent life??????

Telly, thanks. I am feeling better today. Sadly it's mainly because H decided not to bring up our conversations since he's been back, so I feel safer. Two days ago, I was terrified of the fight I was expecting when he got back; usually when I strike a chord like that with him, we spend a good 4-5 hours with him telling me how much his life sucks and every little thing I've done to wrong him.

I fully recognize that we exclude him. I do it on purpose, even though it's a bad thing to do, to avoid conflict. I know it's unhealthy, and I know it's not fair to him. But I'm not strong enough to stand up to him for things, so I find ways to avoid the conflict. In his mind, his way is the only way to do anything. He is always right. If we discuss it, he just gets angrier because we are disrespecting him. So I shut down and I take care of as many of D18's things as I can without him.

I have to say, though, that today he made an extra effort to do things right. He asked me about his interactions with D18, as in 'did I do this right?' So I think he's listening and wanting everyone to be happy.

I know he's not an evil monster, and I know I'm as much to blame as he is, but I'm trying to fix things. He's a good man and I owe him a lot. I just want to make things right for all of us.

stella, I know how bad it seems, but like everyone else, there's more to the story than you see on here. He never has sex with me without trying to give me orgasm first. Never. When he thinks I'm going to balk, he backs off - I've just been so conflict avoidant that I rarely do balk. I have to learn to do it, and not take it personally when he gets angry. And I've been so distant the last few years I really don't blame him for being unhappy, considering his job problems and money problems and D18 wanting to break away from him as all 18 year olds do.

I want to thank all of you, even when I get upset. It's just a growth period, you know? I really need you all to be honest with me, to get me to the right place.

H helped me all day today with a community event, even though he's horribly sick with a cold. I really think I've got him thinking and wanting to fix things.

My father was the same...
He and I would get into raging matches with each other.
18 years came...and I was OUT of there.

My mom only ONCE, ever told my father to" LEAVE HER ALONE, she hasn't done anything wrong." She deflected whatever malarkey dad was dishing out on me.

I'll never forget that.

... will never understand why she put up with it.

My mom is the Rock of Gibraltar.

...but I wonder if she would not have been far happier having taken a different path in life.

I LIE. ^^^ I know she would have...she told me herself:
" If I could do it over again...I would never have married nor had children."..*sigh*

Catperson, I truly have no idea how you deal with it each day,,,I know I would have done something....unprintable and very NOT MB principals.

In my brief journey spinning around this lovely planet, I have learned that the only real Fear is the Fear itself...because when I throw 110% of everything of myself at that which oppresses...I have nothing left to lose.

That's Freedom. It's also rather peaceful.
What's the worst he can do?
Escape routes...always have one.

Fear of confrontation is also the fear of change, One doesn't confront if one is not seeking change.

Some Verbally/ Emotionally abuse or throw punches and this is not about seeking change but power and control over the actions/ thoughts/choices of another.

When my H starts his ranting....the heart starts pumping, I go into overdrive, I am not really even "there"...sometimes, he can "calm' down,,,,other times not... when he chooses Not to....

I'm Human...I know what I do.
I'm not afraid. I am not 'wrong.' I am not 'right.'
I will NOT be disrespected.


Your thread is painful reading....like seeing a bird who forgot how to fly.

Cat...

You know...throughout your situation, I may have missed something, but have you ever discussed with your husband just how unhappy you are and how you are not sure he's going to be part of your future if things continue as they are?

I know others will disagree, but it seems to be that in light of your husband's personality, perhaps he needs to be forewarned in order to really 'get it' without it being a huge awakening at the 9th hour.

And a hard question for you, perhaps, but are you afraid that if he is given a chance, he will succeed and you will feel compelled to stay?

Thanks, SD.

Soolee, he knows I have been unhappy. He knows I've been driven to ADs twice now. He knows I've been close to suicide a couple of times. But he's afraid to address why. He is so fearful of exposing his faults that he'll try any way that works to avoid it. The real problem is that I, too, am avoidant as well as self-hating, so I never felt I had the right to expect more.

I'm learning here that that is wrong. My old IC would tell me, but I never really got it. I remember when she would compliment me on my looks or something, I would burst into tears. In my mind, I wanted it so very much, but I have never in my life believed I deserved to be thought of as anything good.

I haven't told him about leaving. I really would like him to become the kind of guy most people seem to have. I love him, I guess, and he's a great person. As has been said, it's just painful living with him. So, yeah, I would look forward to him changing. I don't want to live alone, though I could do without the SF, but I want to be like the people I see who have full lives that don't revolve around setting off the husband. Who aren't afraid to do things without him for fear of being told how miserable that makes him. Who go out to dinner with their friends without him questioning why I have to go and having to defend myself. That world is just alien to me.

But it's of my own making. I know that. So I'm trying to steel myself to just say what I want and detach from his feelings. Until it is part of our lives, and I feel more like a 'real' grownup woman.

Honestly, the one thing I think of when I think of telling him, is that he would try to sabotage it. I know it's absurd, but I still feel it, and it paralyzes me. Like if I said I'm leaving when D18 goes to college, my mind flashes to him finding some way to make her stay at home, like an accident or something, so that I would never leave. Now, he has never ever shown any kind of tendency like that so I'm really just being scared of the potential confrontation; I guess I've read too many books or something.

But I know I need to be honest. I'm getting there. This email thing we had last week was a really good start. He's been very attentive this week, very careful, and very receptive when D18 calls him on some of his bad behavior. So I finally have some good hope of change.

Catperson,
1. Have you been the one to always go and comfort your daughter after her dad has blasted her or you?

2. Discussed how 'to keep the peace'...so he wouldn't blow a gasket?

SD, oh yeah...all the time. And I hate myself every time I do it. I know I'm sacrificing long-term health for a few minutes of calm and I hate myself for it. Every time I do that, I tell D18 that if I were a stronger person, I would have just stopped this long ago, but that I evaluated and decided I would rather her have calm this moment and trust that she understands how this is NOT the way to be. I hope it works.

We've actually been a little better since the email fiasco; he's been very attentive and careful and controlled what he says. He's extra careful about D18, because he craves her affection more than anything. I've been telling her lately to stop controlling herself, to say what she needs to say, and that I will support her doing so. We'll see. Everything's changing. I guess that's good.

So she has been following your example of walking on eggshells... I'm so glad you are breaking out of that mold, and while she is still living at home to witness it and benefit from it.

Like a very wise person just said on hold's thread:

lol, I figured I'd get called on that!

H did the sweetest thing last night. D18 and her boyfriend got into an argument, via texting of all things (grr), and he ended it by saying 'I'll give it another week' - meaning their relationship. So she was devastated, thinking he was giving her an ultimatum. I calmed her down, but every couple hours she would crumple again (he was working, so they couldn't talk). Anyway, she came downstairs around 2am, crying again, and I talked her down as she lay on the couch, eventually falling asleep. So I got up to go to my room, and H was sitting on the floor, just inside the doorway, listening. He knows she doesn't want him around when she is having a bad time, and would have stopped talking if he came in the room - she wants no part of him for comforting cos he usually just upsets her more. And with this particular boyfriend, whom he's said nothing but bad things about, I know she'd get upset.

But he was concerned, so he sat there listening, not coming in so that I could help her. I've been trying to show him what she needs from him when she's upset. I'd like them to have that bonding. I think maybe these days he's a little more receptive.