Tully,
I'm copy/pasting this here because I was afraid I scared you off on my thread.

Oh Tully, I'm not mad at you...I'm mad at me. I'm sooo sorry. I really did not want to upset you as I'm sure there is enough of that in your life already. Please, accept my apology. I do welcome your input and maybe would even be able to talk with you in person if that ever were the case. But, it's so hard.

We are one in the same. That is sad. A club I never wanted to join. We'll both be ok. I'm sure of that!

Thank for that, fiori. I think we are both going through a very hard time at the moment and it's not easy to see the best way forward. I hope I didn't depress you at a time when you need to be strong and clear-headed. If I did, it was absolutely not my intention. I really hope that you sort everything out as quickly as possible.

Turtlehead, I understand the need to go completely dark in Plan B and I can see what you mean but I can't find a practical way out for the moment. The main obstacle to this issue is that he will not want to move out. The compromise I suggest just might persuade him but the problem is that he thinks he is committed and doesn't see why he should move out. I am racking my brains about how to do this. I could find a place nearby to stay for me and the girls and leave him the house. Is that preferable?

I had no intention of leaving prepared meals for him and the children and I wouldn't make any extra efforts to wash clothes etc.

I was thinking of 'going dark' on my contact with him as much as possible. I think it could be effective if I can block out everything. At an early point my WH was trying to decide which us (me or OW) he wanted to be with and once he said in a cry from the heart which is so unlike him, 'Oh, I'm losing my best friend' (me)
Then another time we went to the restaurant for lunch and he said (again out of the blue) 'OMG, if I thought I would never see you again then I could never go through with this. But I know that you'll always be there because we'll always have the children to tie us together.' I believe he loves me and that when he realises what life might be like without me then he will be shocked. I am not only his best friend, I am his only friend (or at least I was until OW came along)

I have been thinking about the first week. I was thinking about giving him Mondays and Thursday evenings. (it's not easy to cope with homework, meals and showers etc for the four of them so it might be good for him) Also I don't think he has ever not known where I am so it might be good to worry him a bit.

I will also expose to the girls so that he has that to deal with as well but my idea was to do that just before Plan B. Is that a bad idea? I have no idea how long he will last but I suspect not long because he knows relationship with OW is doomed and in any case she is supposed to be gone to Ireland at that stage. Also I know he would find it very hard to live alone - much harder than me I think. I will work on a Plan B letter and post it here asap.

Tully,

I haven't posted to you in a while (since that dreaded phone call you barged in on) but I've still been following your thread. I just wanted to say that you are getting amazing advice and support and that I really think you have as good a shot at R as anybody I've seen here, provided you can execute that Plan B with complete darkness. It is critical that you do so. He has to clearly see what a world without Tully is like. What taking care of 4 kids as a single dad is like. It's going to scare the crap out of him!!! He will only see this clearly if you are completely dark and you do absolutely nothing to help him in any way shape or form. I understand you have logistical challenges to deal with but you've got to get them figured out. It sounds like he won't last very long when you hit him with Plan B. I'm really, truly pulling for you!! You are much stronger then most BS's around here (myself included).

Best of luck!

Mindshare

Thanks Mindshare. And yes, I agree, I am getting amazing advice and help here. CAn I say one more time, thank you so so much everyone. It helps so much to have a plan. I know I wobbled off badly last night but I'm back on track.

I just had another thought that I'd like to add to the pot so that I have a good Plan B. I think Domestic Support is very low down on my WH's ENs with the possible exception of good food. But this last would be an easy one to eliminate - just don't leave any leftovers. What I mean is that a tidy house, a cosy atmosphere, clean clothes etc are not of huge importance to him. He would always be happier if the kids and I went to the swimming pool and left the house in a mess rather than if I stayed at home to clean up. So what I mean is that if he is in the house and getting those things they wouldn't mean a lot to him compared with other ENs.

Be careful with your read of your H on this one Tully. It's easy for a man to say that DS is not high on the list when he is getting great DS. Once he has to do alot of that stuff for himself he will realize just how much work it is and how much he has taken for granted. Trust me, I know on this one. I thought it was low on my list to until I didn't have it anymore. Especially with 4 kids. He is in for one h@ll of a wake-up call!!! You might be quite surprised to find out just how much this one affects him once you get your Plan B up and running.

Mindshare

You may be right, mindshare, it can get pretty hectic here if I don't get a bit organised in the day before they come home from school. BTW, where is your thread and what's your situation?

Does anyone know if somewhere on the forum there's a list of instructions for a mediator?

Tully,
Aren't you sleeping? I saw one of your posts early this morning and it was around 4am. Perhaps you're west coast or another country...I was just wondering if you're ok.

I've been primarily a lurker Tully. Found out my WW was having an affair in June 08. Found this site and started reading like crazy. Bought and read SAA. I tried to take elements of MB and apply them to my sitch but I didn't follow the plans to the letter and I believe that was a huge mistake. Dr. Harley states that there is a very narrow path to a succesful recovery but too many BS's (myself included) think they can cherry pick the parts of the plans that fit and leave out other parts. Everybody thinks their sitch is unique so not all things apply. I learned the hard way that isn't true! Once you become educated and read here for a while you start to see that almost all A's are the same. Many elements are identical!! You won't say anything here that somebody else hasn't already experienced. If I could go back in time I would execute everything just the way that Dr. Harley recommends.

To summarize my sitch:

Me - 39 BH
Her - 40 WW (25 yo co-worker)
Married 15 years
SD21
D10
D-Day 6/6/08

Attempted elements of Plan A and Plan B but never executed properly or fully. WW moved out and we are headed to Plan D. I'm done. Nothing left in my LB. It emptied quicker then I anticpated and without a totally dark Plan B I was done for.

I really envy you Tully because I think you are following the true narrow path which I now believe is the only way to a fully recovered M in the future. It doesn't guarantee it of course but it's clearly the way to go. Listen to the good folks here and execute the Plans just as they are laid out. You are doing well so far and you can do this. You are doing as well as anybody that I have seen here thus far.

Mindshare

Hi Mindshare, so sorry to hear your story. June doesn't seem so very long ago. Are you sure it's over? I have been fighting tooth and nail for my marriage and I'm not sure I'll get there but thanks for your encouragement. It's words like that that keep me going.
And you are reinforcing my belief that the Harley plan is the best way to go. But all the great people here have already convinced me. I am amazed at people's generosity with their time and thoughts.

Hi Fiori, your post slipped in there at the end of a page and I didn't see it. I live in France but I'm Irish. Thanks for your concern. No, I'm not sleeping very well but it's better than it was. Having a plan helps. It gives me a sense of strength and knowing where I'm going even if it's not a place I'm sure I want to go to.

I'm going to talk to WH's colleague tomorrow morning so I hope to get back and tell you all what I find out before I go away for the day.

Good night.

Tully,

No..unfortunately, it's too late for me. I didn't follow the plans to the letter and that ended up costing me what I had left in my own LB. WW has done to many things and behaved in such a horrible way that I don't have any desire to continue with the M. Looking back, I can see some of my mistakes and I'm hoping that I can help some other people avoid the same things. I'm really pulling for you and your M...assuming that's what you still want when all is said and done. Just remember to protect your own LB which is what Plan B is designed to do. Otherwise, if your LB gets to empty you are unlikely to be able to even want to recover any longer.

Good luck meeting WH's colleague tomorrow!

Mindshare

Mindshare, I'd forgotten about that aspect of the Plan B and now that you mention it I think I might be necessary to do a Plan B even if I don't get proof of contact for that reason. The other night I was so angry I wanted so badly to hit him (and I did, but with a t-shirt although I wanted it to be something much harder and heavier) I need to sort this situation out.

I spoke to my mediator last night and she said no problem to do this. WHat I told her was that I wanted her to relay messages between us but only factual ones, no emotional ones. She will also be the one that will judge if he is ready to comply with the conditions I will impose (I'm thinking of honesty + no contact + true remorse + a real willingness to makes efforts to restore our marriage) and I trust her to be a good judge of that.

As I work on Plan B I have 2 questions on which I'd really appreciate opinions.

Exposing to the children: At the moment they are aware that we have problems (big-people problems that have nothing to do with them) and that we are trying to sort them out. I have been advised to tell about the presence of OW and my struggle to get rid of her. I am wondering if I should tell them right now (WH will be extremely angry and it might be difficult to do a good Plan A for the next couple of weeks) or if I should tell them just before I go black-out in Plan B as a means of explaining to them what I am doing and why. Then he would have to deal with the fall-out but it might make him slower to terminate Plan B. On the other hand it might make him more willing to accept to move out. Also, to what extent do I emphasise the seriousness and importance of this to the kids.

Sharing the house: Should I go ahead with my idea of sharing this house or would I be better leaving it to him and finding some place for us to go to? It wouldn't be easy to find a place to stay at short notice without signing a long term contact especially as I have no personal income but I could try.

I was going to go with Plan B on Thursday Nov 6 by sending Plan B letter by email. I was thinking of telling him that he is to pick them up that evening and put them in school the next day. During the day while he is in work I will come home, pack our bags and pick up the girls after school on Friday (he won't be expecting that) and we will go for the weekend to friends (they've agreed and won't tell him where we are) On Sunday evening I will ask another friend to check if he is at the house before we go there. On Monday again he can pick them up and I will stay away. Then I do Tuesdays and Wednesdays and then it's him on Thursday. And he would get the next weekend.

Any thoughts?

Tully, sorry, I'm trying to catch up. Are you talking about sharing the house back and forth while in Plan B? If you are, I don't think that would work so well.

Also, if you didn't see it before, my email is you_neakatyahoodotcom.

{{{{{{{{{{{Tully}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Believe me, whether you can find it or not, your husband REEKS of contact. Catch him if you can, but if you can't find proof I don't think you should let that stop you. HE knows he's in contact.

I'm not sure at this point if you should go into PB sooner or wait till right after your holiday - it depends on what you can do. I think you should get everything ready ahead, that way if you need to go sooner you can.

After his cruelty and your (understandable but non Plan A) reaction, it's obvious your Love Bank is getting pretty far into the red. So you'll need to do this very soon, either way.

I like your idea of being gone to a friend's for the weekend, as long as it's to give him the chance to pack, not to give him his turn with the house.

If you do that, be prepared for him to be desperate to talk reconcilatio when you return. It's impossible to predict ahead of time if he will be broken enough to try, but it will definitely shake him up and you need to be prepared for that.

Maybe leave SAA in your bathroom, too, lol.

You've been a trooper, and now you've just got to protect yourself.

Dear tully,

Although I have never been in Plan B, I should like to endorse what others here are saying about not allowing him to see the children at your house.

I think that Plan B requires you to exclude WH from your environment altogether. I do not think that letting him visit the house really does that.

I agree with turtlehead’s advice that the children will probably find camping out at his place an adventure, so I think that you should not worry about this. However, if he really cannot have the children to stay at the hovel that he will be forced to rent, then they cannot stay overnight. Is that bad?

Is there a reason why you have suggested that they spend entire alternate weekends with him? I think that this is a pattern that judges award in cases of divorce. However, do you have to follow it now?

Why not let him take them for a day every weekend, instead of both days every other one? This would be as well as the one or two weekdays every week that you have proposed above.Might this work?

I agree with Neak that he reeks of contact. You just have not been able to find proof, but there is contact. Do what Neak says; if you can last through the holiday and wedding do so, but go to Plan B as soon as OW should have left for Ireland, whether she leaves or not. You might be able to build a lot of deposits while on holiday, which will help with Plan B. However, have Plan B, including the letter, worked out to the finest detail now in case you need to bail suddenly.

You will remember to look gorgeous at all times, won’t you, form now on? Do this for you. Pamper yourself in some way every day, even if just to put on basic make-up. You will feel much better for knowing you look nice outside and underneath your clothes. Oh, and you should be buying the new clothes that you probably usually deny yourself, to flatter the weight that you have lost on the infidelity diet. Don’t so much as nip out to the newsagent (or whatever they call them in France) without wearing lip gloss, and do not do housework in your old clothes; take off your good quality, NEW, casual clothes and do the housework in your NEW undies. Works wonders for me!

I’ll be back over the weekend. Chin up, tully. You’re doing so well.

Neak, I was afraid that you had disappeared. How good to have you back! I need you. Yes, I am starting to think that WH is definitely in contact. And that Plan B is essential regardless of whether I have proof of contact or not. I didn't get in touch with his colleague this morning as she wasn't there early but I sent her a quick email and she said that I can call around to her house tomorrow morning so I'll nip out for the bread and talk to her. I think I can Plan A until the 6th Nov -it's much easier to do now that I have a definite plan. I did a magnificent plan A day. I was the best wife a man could ask for, tolerant, easygoing, fun (I even made him laugh a few times), loving, he got the works although he was so wishy washy and nonresponsive it was tough going. (Turtlehead, you'd have been proud of me) And even if I say so myself Sugar, I looked good, if a bit skinny. I've lost 7 kilos on this infidelity diet and I didn't really have them to lose to begin with. I feel as if all this effort is wasted on him although I tell myself it will dawn on him later.

Sugar and Neak, you say that sharing the house is no go and I do agree in an ideal world but how do I make him go? Do I get tough and impose legal action on him or do I get other friends and family to put pressure on him to leave. Because he won't want to go at all. I thought about getting a house for us and leaving him here but that wouldn't be easy either. I just don't know how to get around the practicalities. I am absolutley open to ideas.

Got to go to bed now to seduce him to round off a good Plan A day.

Well I'm back because the seduction attempt was a disaster. He doesn't even want to properly kiss me never mind make love. There is contact!!!!!
Anyway, I am badly in need of advice here. If I find out tomorrow morning that there was contact (and I have a strong suspicion that I will) should I put a lightning Plan B into place or should i try to continue Plan A as originally intended until the end of the holidays. Here are the pros and cons

For Plan B immediately:
- He already agreed that if there was contact between them that he would move out immediately so that would facilitate that side of things. (Although I could still claim that that applies in 2 weeks time.)
- My LB is low. I said earlier that I had a good Plan A day but in reality I'm faking it and that wasn't the case before. I think it is becoming critical.
- I think the Plan A I have done to date (even before I knew about MB) is not too, too bad in that I think he is convinced that being with me is the best thing for him so I'm not too scared that he'll walk away.

For Plan A continuing:
- She is still around and won't be leaving to go to Ireland until the end of the month (that's if she does go) but she still has her flat until the end of the month and sexual contact would be much more difficult after 2 weeks. (Let me add here that I am terrified that she will get pregnant - she is desperate enough and I couldn't bear that)
- Contact between them will be very difficult over the next 2 weeks because we will be together all the time and away from home most of that time.
- I could do a better Plan A and it would give me time to organise the practicalities of Plan B.

OK, having written all that out, I think I'm convincing myself that I should confront him with the proof if I find contact and then continue with Plan A as planned with 6 nov being the Plan B date. I can't do Plan A if I have that on my heart but if I confront he will be apologetic and that will help me do a better Plan A. Am I being ridiculous here? I have got it wrong and resisted suggestions so often so please tell me your views.

Sugar, also I'd really appreciate your views on my question above on exposing to the children. Also Black Raven too if you are around?

First, I would suggest posting tomorrow's findings before deciding how to react. I will be gone much of the day, but I'm sure other good people will be here. If you need to, start a new thread with a synopsis asking for help on this thread.

Take a day or two and get your Plan B ready, just in case. If your bank is that low, you may not make it clear till the 6th.

I'm proud of you for accepting that there was contact, even in the face of absolute proof. If you see an elephant footprint in the mud, you don't have to have photos of the elephant to prove it passed by.

Hold on, keep your faith strong, because you're going to get through this just fine.

Tully,

I know you are asking folks here when to go to Plan B but the answer to that really lies within you! You have to do your best to monitor you LB and don't let it get into the red! I sense that you are dangerously close right now. If you don't feel like you can make it to the 6th then don't! If you try to overextend yourself just to try to make a pre-determined calendar date you may find that you WH withdraws too much from your LB in the interim and you may lose your desire to try to save the M! You are doing so many things well. We are all pulling for you. Just keep close tabs on your LB and your overall desire to recover. If you feel you are getting to close to the red then you need to get to Plan B regardless of what date it is on the calendar!

Best wishes!

Mindshare