I wouldn't. In fact, what you say just reinforces what I said above and makes it even more imperative to not waste time navel gazing. They won't resolve the problem by rooting around in the PAST, but by focusing on PRESENT BEHAVIORS. Yapping about ones childhood is cute and profitable to therapists,[beneficial to no one else] but not effective in resolving current problems.

Problems are solved by focusing on PRESENT BEHAVIOR, not one's childhood.

Aileen, did you read my post to you? I think you will find alot more help in using Marriage Builders concepts instead of focusing on grievances. This program can show you both how to stop the destructive behavior and fall in love again.

Aileen, here is what Dr Harley, a clinical psychologist has to say about rooting around in the past:

Hi Melodylane, yes I saw your post and thank you for your suggestion. I did questionnare for EN with H and compared our notes. All my ENs were in the middle score except domestic support. However my LBs were all close to top. When I suggested LB questionaire to H, he said "Jesus Christ, how many long freaking questionaires are there?!"

I would love to move forward and focus on the future as I have two kids and I can't live forever being shut down towards H. However, this needs to be done on some basis of understanding and healing.

I don't trust or feel safe with H. It bothered me and it is still bothering me that he has been justifying every unthinkable behavior.

His first marriage lasted 8 years during which he "lived like a king". He did not even know how to use a washer and dryer upon divorce. His ex did not even want children, yet she went through IVF twice because H wanted kids. H justified his affair as "eye opening experience" and claimed it was not an affair as it never got physical before his divorce. He was hurt as the husband went to HR to complain and H was worried about losing his job or being attacked by the furious husband. He was on depression drugs because his EX went to all their common friends and told them what happened, most of them turned their backs to him. H felt wronged as they never listened to his side of the story. He felt bad each time he passed the clinic where his ex had abortion as he believes himself a good person with soft heart. He justified the whole thing as "a heart wants what a heart wants".

OK who am I to make judgement on his life before I met him? I was the one who was able to look pass all this (at least what I knew at the time) and married him right? I started my life with him by loving him, caring about him, eager to shield him from all his pain. Just because I did not agree to move to Belgium, I was pushed against my will and my physical limit over and over again, regardless of me going through IVF due to HIS issues and my early difficulties in pregnancy. He justtfied as he was hurt as much as I was. Through the pregnancy, I was neglected as he was suffering in his depression and he was insensitive and inconsiderate as any normal guy would be.

Even if his wife has done him wrong in his books, he cursed his own flesh and blood "annoying, disgusting, f*cking piece of shi*t", even though his wife begged him to stop, showed him his kids' distressed reactions even if these innocent and helpless souls didn't understand the words, told him it hurt his wife tremendously to hear these words out of his mouth. This repeated and escalated to physical yanking of the child and pushing of the mother. It was justified as a normal adjustment to parenthood as a guy and lack of patience as who he is.

H makes a living figuring out rootcause and studying trending and make predictions. So help me here, what comes next?

Should me or kids trigger any more irritation, impatience, outbursts and any other unthinkable consequences that can be again justified? Should his nature's law apply and human genes come into effect as to a dissolution of marriage of 4-7 years, someone will come along and comiserate with him that "annoying and disgusting kids ruined my life, my ex now my wife eventually lost interest in having sex with me", and action kicks in justified as "a heart wants what a heart wants"?

This is the baggage I am carrying that has been feeding on my blood and soul. This is the root of my loss of trust and security in the marriage. This is what hurts me and scares me a huge deal at the same time.

So tell me this all belongs to the past and show me the way to trust and feel safe with my husband again. I will be happy to work on the communication as he requested.

This IS present behavior, Melody. His parents just left. They had just visited his parents in Belgium 6 months ago. And he already fights with her about going back to see them in 5 or 6 months. And he has already planned to take one of their children with him if she won't go. All despite their pledge to see them only once a year. He says ok to whatever she wants, and then just plans around her to get to be with his parents - apparently the only people who love him unconditionally.

His relationship with his parents CONTINUES to be one of her biggest problems. So, yes, it does need to be addressed. Do you see him being willing to put them in the background, as married adults should do for a healthy marriage, and focus on each other? I don't. She doesn't. Even he doesn't.

Yes, it is rooted in his past. But it has carried into his present behavior with a vengeance. The three of them continually treat her like a pariah for refusing to move to Belgium. When will that end? He says he gave up the hope of living there for her. Yet he continues to bring it up in the context of 'look at what you've done to me.' In other words, give me what I want, or I will make your life h&ll.

catperson, so you agree with me that the answer is NOT in his childhood, but in his PRESENT BEHAVIORS? Because that is what Dr Harley is saying. Rooting around in one's childhood is not the answer; it is an exercise in futility.

When I said the answer is NOT in his childhood but in present behaviors, you said I should reconsider that, but now seem to be agreeing.

I would also suggest that it is not helping this couple by hashing over grievances. I would suggest they read the links i posted above and focus on SOLUTIONS, instead of who is the greater DEMON. This is not a demon contest, after all.

Aileen and OMG, please consider calling up the Harleys and getting phone coaching. They could help you focus on things that will actually HELP your marriage. And they will not demonize you.

Aileen, this sounds like a GREAT START. The next thing I would suggest is to STOP lovebusting. He is lovebusting you and you are lovebusting HIM. There are several disrespectful judgments in your posts; the same with him. That needs to STOP from both sides if this is going to work.

Talking about PAST BEHAVIOR will not change present behavior. It is a diversion, so the answer is not trot out past grievances, but to focus on changing PRESENT BEHAVIOR.

I would strongly suggest that you both focus on lovebusters exclusively now since it seems to be such a big problem.

Please go online [or to the bookstore] and get the book Lovebusters. In addition to taking the questionaires, you can start by reading all the articles online here.

Can you consider coaching with the Harleys? Steve Harley can assess your situation and give you a WORKABLE PLAN that is focused on SOLUTIONS.

But Aileen, didn't you marry him knowing all this? If that is the case then why is this being brought up now? Or are you saying he defrauded you by not telling you?

ML, it's not that easy.

If he has this immense need to please his parents by giving them what they want - as many visits, if not overall moving to be near them - because of how he was raised, he is very unlikely to just wake up and say 'you know what? My parents are acting rudely. We don't need to listen to them any more.' Because it is rooted deep inside him to please them, to get their approval by doing what they want.

So yes it is present - but it is because of his past. He will not just wake up and stop needing to interact with them as much as he does. Not without finding out why he needs it so much.

Have you read Emotional Alchemy? It gives a good explanation of this, how it is programmed in our brains without us even seeing it. He may not even realize he's doing it; so how will he stop it?

I agree this tit for tat isn't doing them any good. But I would guess this is the first time they've ever been this honest with each other; it will blow over soon, and they can get started working on solutions. I think they have had a need to be heard, and have been doing so. Especially him, since we've been trying to show her, or validate her, that what she's been living with is unhealthy.

My H is the same way. In his mind, everything he does is right. Everyone around him knows that's not true. Just last night, we went to look for cars for D18. One of her male friends was with us. H told D18 to drive, he went to get in the passenger seat, and he said to her 17 year old male friend "K, you can sit in the back seat with catperson, in case you two decide to make out."

A joke, of course, but he is only just now realizing how inappropriate he is - because we are having to show him. In his mind, he does nothing wrong.

So I'm hoping her H will see from all this that the way he is viewing things is not necessarily a healthy way to see things - that others think he's inappropriate. And that if he expects to keep his family, it might behoove him to consider this, as she may just get fed up and leave.

I also agree the Harleys would cut through all the crap on both sides quick enough. Guys, I hope you will consider it; it will be money well spent.

And OMG, you really should start your own thread.

Cat, I never said it was "easy," but again, the answer is not in his childhood. Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist and he is right. It is just a diversion.

Nor is the answer to be found in listing grievances and making each other angry on this thread and having a contest over who is the worst. As you can see, this is going nowhere. It is just a DIVERSION from a solution.

No, I have not read Emotional Alchemy, but I have read all of the Marriage Builders books and I happen to know they ALWAYS WORK when followed. I have a great marriage and I would like to help them have the same.

So that is what I am going to help them focus on.

Her husband might be more open if he didn't have to come here and read the endless disrespectful judgments. Who knows. This thread has not been very helpful in that regard, IMO, and has only ticked him off. That is always the result of disrespectful judgments.

She can't successfully demand respect from him while treating him with disrespect. As we can see, that does not work.

That is why I am trying to change the subject here to SOLUTIONS. The answer to marital problems is to be found in focusing on SOLUTIONS, not GRIEVANCES.

Cat, do you actually know people who do things they believe are WRONG? Do you try and do things that are wrong and is that a virtue?

I find this disrespectful judgment about your H very puzzling.

Disrespectful Judgments


When requests don't get you what you want, and demands don't work either, our instincts and habits often provide us with another stupid and abusive strategy -- disrespectful judgments. Without a doubt, demands are abusive, but disrespectful judgments often make demands seem merciful in comparison.

In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force our spouses to give us what we want in marriage, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our spouse's personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our spouse in an effort to get our way.

At the time we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our spouses a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls-and we would also get what we want.

A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.

In most cases, a disrespectful judgment is simply a sophisticated way of getting what one spouse wants from the other. But even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our spouses, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful. That's when we make sizable withdrawals from the Love Bank.

How can you know if you're a perpetrator of disrespectful judgments? The simplest way to find out is to ask your spouse. But you may be a little confused as to what exactly you should ask. To help you ask the right questions, I've provided you the Disrespectful Judgments Questionnaire:


Disrespectful Judgments Questionnaire
Circle the number that best represents your feelings about the way your spouse tries to influence your attitudes, beliefs, and behavior. If you circle a number greater than 1 for any question, try to think of an example that you can share with your spouse and write it on a sheet of paper.

1. Does your spouse ever try to "straighten you out?"


Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7


2. Does your spouse ever lecture you instead of respectfully discussing issues?


Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7


3. Does your spouse seem to feel that his or her opinion is superior to yours?


Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7


4. When you and your spouse discuss an issue, does he or she interrupt you or talk so much that you are prevented from having a chance to explain your position?


Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7

5. Are you afraid to discuss your points of view with your spouse?

Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7


6. Does your spouse ever ridicule your point of view?


Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7


The scoring for this questionnaire is simple. Unless all of your spouse's answers are "1," you're probably engaging in disrespectful judgments. Almost all of us are guilty of this Love Buster from time to time; so don't be alarmed if you get some twos or threes. But if your spouse gave you any fours, fives, sixes, or sevens, you're at risk to lose your spouse's love for you because your disrespectful judgments are rising to the level of abuse.

If your spouse identifies you as one who makes disrespectful judgments, you may be tempted to make yet another disrespectful judgment and claim that he or she is wrong! Resist that temptation at all costs because in every case of abuse, the victim is a far better judge of its existence than the perpetrator. Take his or her word for it, and start working on a plan to eliminate whatever it is your spouse interprets as disrespect.

When we try to impose our opinions on our spouses, we imply that they have poor judgment. That's disrespectful. We may not say this in so many words, but it's the clear message that they hear. If we valued their judgment more, we might question our own opinions. What if they're right, and we're wrong?

I'm not saying that you can't disagree with your spouse. But I want you to respectfully disagree. Try to understand your spouse's reasoning. Present the information that brought you to your opinion and listen to the information your spouse brings. Entertain the possibility that you might change your own mind, instead of just pointing out how wrong your spouse is.

That's how respectful persuasion works. You see, each of you brings two things into your marriage -- wisdom and foolishness. Your marriage will thrive when you blend your value systems, with each one's wisdom overriding the other's foolishness. By sharing your ideas, sorting through the pros and cons, you can create a belief system superior to what either of you had alone. But unless you approach the task with mutual respect, the process won't work and you will destroy your love for each other in the process.

In most cases, disrespectful judgments are nothing more than stupid and abusive attempts to get what you want in your marriage. As is the case with demands, disrespect doesn't work -- it's simply a form of verbal abuse. here

MelodyLane, I find your approach reasonable and just, and it feels like you are the only one here who is not trying to reinforce anything rather than help us get to solution space.

Echo, come on, about the Speaker-Listening thing: first of all, we were in the car about to get out at Winco. Hardly the place to have an honest speaker-listening conversation as we're browsing the grocery isle. Second, I didn't even know where were doing that exercise at that time. I suggested that we set some time apart at night to try this difficult exercise, I didn't know you had decided to just delve right in, right there at Winco.

This is why it's so hard for me to read all this. You didn't mention all the details of the speaker-listener event, i think I'm trying to be helpful by suggesting things we can do to improve communication, and again, next thing I know, I come to regret it.

Catwoman, there is no strange hold my family has on me. I don't think anybody wanting to see their extended family once a year with their own family is too much to ask, and I don't think that this means we all have family issues. I may not be meeting my wife's EN's despite my attempts, but her EN's can not be that our kids don't meet there extended family except whenever she feels like it's a good time, which is maybe once every year or two. That is unacceptable, and an abuse of the problem we started with here. There's a fine line between trying fix problems and trying to use them to get your way. There is just nothing wrong with wanting families to be together once a year, everybody I work with who has kids takes them to see both family sides once a year, I don't understand why this is such a hard thing to understand or why therefore I must have issues. You just don't hear all the details, only the ones Echo remembers as highlighted again in the story above.

It is just frustrating. I think it just means Echo has so much anger towards me she somehow isn't able to allow herself the possibility that I do try, as shown in the example above.

What is puzzling or DJing about a 54 year old man telling a teenage boy he can sit in the back seat with his wife in case he wants to make out with her? He thought that was ok to say (thinks he's right). The boy was so embarrassed he would have left, if he had had any other way to get home.

I may not be meeting my wife's EN's despite my attempts, but her EN's can not be that our kids don't meet there extended family except whenever she feels like it's a good time, which is maybe once every year or two. That is unacceptable, and an abuse of the problem we started with here. There's a fine line between trying fix problems and trying to use them to get your way. There is just nothing wrong with wanting families to be together once a year, everybody I work with who has kids takes them to see both family sides once a year,

is this ever over? I already agreed on once a year and you are pushing for more. what do I use to get what I want??? Here it is again: this is unacceptable. Where is my way? why don't you show me? We ALREADY visited your family once this year. You were pushing to see them again this year or twice next year!!! You can NOT do that while encouraging we see BOTH families once a year.

Where do you want to end???? How many times I explained I do NOT enjoy seeing your family the same as you do, and it is UNFAIR to only allow my family visit on TOP of yours.

SHould I just give up right here right now????

You said you were ok with once a year. Yet you say if she says once a year, it is unacceptable. You saw your family this summer, right? They just visited and left, right? You asked her if you could go again for Christmas, right? And then you said you would take everyone or at least one of the kids in the spring. If you kept that pace, and got all the visits you asked for, you'd be seeing your parents 5 times a year.

Granted, that's all based on Aileen's accounting. Feel free to set us straight on everything she's told us. We asked you to do that when you first got here, so that we could get to the real truth, as we all know that only one side will make things distorted. So undistort them. Was she lying? Did those events not happen? How many times in the past 2 years have you seen her mother?

I'm sorry you don't think I'm trying to be helpful. You both have a lot of work to do if you're going to survive. But you have to be willing to accept your contribution to the problem before you can fix it.

And if Aileen's account is valid, that you did cuss at your child, did put one on the ground and walk away cos he wouldn't stop crying, did abandon her at the hospital multiple times because it was boring, did try to yank the baby out of her arms, did fail to defend your wife to your parents, then you need to acknowledge those actions as YOURS and quit trying to justify it all as that she is making you do it.

Only when you learn the humility to accept your side will you be able to reach those solutions you need. If you go into the solution phase believing she's the one causing all the grief, you are NOT being honest. You will not get the solution your marriage needs. That is why I keep trying to point out these occasions of disrespect and selfishness, if they are indeed true. If you continue to ignore them, she'll give up on you and leave you.

Of course she needs to work, too. But I dare anyone here to experience the events she has described and not become hard-hearted. The only way to thaw that heart is to make your own changes, not justify your actions.

Regarding: "IS THIS EMOTIONAL ABUSE OR AM I OVERREACTING?"

After seeing some of your interactions as a married couple, I tend to believe that BOTH of you are emotionally abusing each other and BOTH of you are overreacting.

It would help your marriage if at least ONE of you would stop abusing the other and overreacting!

I think you should read the post by tailspin over on the Resolving Conflict board before you make any decisions.

yes, I posted that. It is just frustrating that I can't seem to hear what Echo really wants and needs. I try, and I have my faults, and they have been listed here in numerous ways. But we both have our faults, and my point of that post was that if one just lists the negatives and skimps over the positives (perhaps because they are too angry to accept them), then it's easy to accuse a person of something.

I have asked Echo and continue to ask, let's go to therapy, let's call the Harleys, tell me what it is that you want that i'm not doing now. I have picked up the clues you left, I read and heard your messages and the questionnaire, I've applied the things I learned from it, and you seem to be getting just angrier. I am obviously not doing the right things to fill your EN's and you are trying to explain to me but somehow I'm just not hearing what else I can do better.

This is starting to get a little creepy, you (or you two) starting another post on "Resolving Conflict" board under another name. I am in a Tailspin on how to reply!