Well, what we always say here is not to make the decision that "feels" right. Make the decision that is right. And, sorry, but Zora is a long way from recovered. She is doing just what you did, jumping to another relationship instead of working on the marriage.

And we already know that the OM doesn't honor marriage, decency, or friendship. Another trainwreck on the way............

I don't know if its the right decision, but I believe its the best decision for her and me right now.

She needs to get away from me, and I understand that. She fought for me for a very long time. I was blind and foolish.

I dont want to put her through any more pain. I need to not be selfish. I want to fight to the bitter end, believe me I do.

Selfish is what got us here. Putting my needs ahead of hers got us here.

I pray she has a change of heart before the D becomes finalized, I pray for us both, I have hope for us both, I have nope for our futures, I have hope for our family. I have to let her do what she believes is best for herself, even if I think its a mistake. I need to fight on her side.

I pray she does not end up where I am, I dont wish this dark place on my worst enemy.

Well, i made a few more love buster mistaken this am.

I dropped the dogs off to Zora this am as she asked for them. I brought her a small gift I bought her at the faire last weekend, and was upset about something.

I knew when I was in that state it would make things worse so I should just be polite and leave. She asked what was wrong, I told her, and left.

I then called her and we fought, yelled at each other, for 30 min as I drive back home. I tried to change her view point on everything and get her to see what I wanted her to see.

When I got down here I called back, left a message as shs did not pick up, just appologizing and said I should have known when things got emotional to back off and stop. Instead I continued and probably took a few steps back in showing her anything.

I wish god could just make me a mute whenever I was acting foolishly.

How am I suppose to not try and show her how good things can be, by explaining my stupidity of the past? I have such a hard time trying to not use words to convey my sorrow, my hope for the future, and point out what I think are errors in her present though line.

Its so hard to not try.

I know what I should have done, but sometimes things are so emotional its hard to see the right thing to do clearly.

I push her farther and farther away. Last night we talked for a while, just about not much, not arguments. Then I made her feel not safe again this morning. WTF am I doing.

Anyways, I think I will start a new thread in divorced / divorcing as I still will sign the papers, which apparantly are arriving on the 30th. I need to fight with her for once, even its at the end.

SW,

I've been following you sitch for a little bit but haven't posted to you yet. Get ready for a 2x4. You won't like it but I hope you consider what I have to say.

It seems to me like you come on to MB and post alot of the 'right' things about working on yourself etc. but in real life is this stuff truly happening? I get the feeling you are posting stuff here because you know Zora is probably reading it but are you really walking the walk? Or, are you using this forum to try to convince Zora you are a different person when really not much has changed? I know how hard it is to go through what you are going through but you cannot 'make' Zora think the way you want her to right now (ever for that matter). Her head is where it is right now and you can yell, scream, badger, plead or beg and you cannot 'force' her to see things the way that you do. Anymore then she could force you back when you were wayward and in the fog.

My best advice to you is back the h@ll off from her for a while and give her some space. Start walking the walk of self improvement instead of just talking the talk. I could be way off base but it just seems to me like everything you are doing is calculated to try to win her back rather then true honest self improvement. It's hard work! But, you can do it. Stop trying to change her mind. Be the best person you can be and let the rest take care of itself. Even if you end up in D it doesn't mean that you are done forever. Plenty of people re-marry at some point. But, that will never happen if you keep up the way you are going now. Stop the madness. Really, truly work on yourself. Become attractive once again.

My 2 cents....

Mindshare

That is not why I post here. I honestly want to make the changes. I know I have lots of work to do, but I am commited to doing them.

She is not dumb, she knows other than the most basic things I have done, I have just said words. But I can't change overnight with words, only with repeated actions over a long time. And I know I will fall down again and make mistakes, i made them this morning again.

I see the person I was and I hate that person, no one would like that person.

I know I need to back off, I say this over and over to myself, my friends, etc.. Its just very hard to not try. Its so hard.

I came here a month ago hoping to get her to change her mind, I wont deny that, but now I am here for help for me. I have an IC next week, but for the moment right now all I have is here to talk. I talk to my pastor alot, but we focus on spirituality, my relationship with god, he refered me to the IC for my many other issues.

SW,

You have got to get control of your emotions. Stop trying to manipulate Zora into thinking the way you want her to right now. Hopefully, you are realizing that she is pretty dead set on her course right now so let it play out. Like I said, a D is not necessarily the absolute end of the line. However, if you don't focus on changing you, making yourself attractive to her once again then you are done forever. LB's are the absolute worst thing you can do right now. Do you have any idea how far back you probably set your chances at recovery by getting into a shouting match with her this morning? If you cannot walk away, get yourself under control then you are better off not having any interaction with her at all right now. All you did this morning is reinforce in her mind that she is absolutely doing the right thing with the D. Please consider this.

Mindshare

The funny thing is I knew this on my drive up there and said I would not make matters worse, then I did. I knew it right after we hung up too.

I believe what you say is correct, I do need to get my emotions under control. I know I need to back off, I say it over and over and I will be trying.


I know today was a disaster.

SW,

This is precisely what I mean. You knew going up there that you could not LB under any circumstance. Yet, you allowed your emotions to take over and you did it anyway thus severely damaging your chances at future recovery. This tells me that you do not have the control you need at this point to interact with Zora. Therefore, you should not be interacting with her on the phone or face-to-face at all right now. Not until you have full control of yourself. Not until you can walk away from a potential LB before it happens. You have to be strong enough that even if she LB's you can still absorb that and walk away. If you don't heed this advice then I truly think your prospects of recovery are slim at best.

Mindshare

I know you are right, and I have to do it. I've said it before though and failed. I need to stop trying and do it.

Thank you for the 2x4

I completely agree, and hope you heed this most excellent advice, not only agree with it.

I wanted to remind you of this from what you said on my thread.

It's easy to look at the marriage and see how it went bad, because then we don't have to look at ourselves. I really stress, caution and encourage you to just keep looking at your behavior and find out what cause you to go down the road you went down. Because ultimately as much as we want to blame and control others we can't.

We had the defects in our character that allowed us to hurt our marriages and it's up to us to figure out how to make ourselves whole and build new lives so that if and when we get a second chance we are truly better people and healed.

I do know that Queenie, I really do, I see it so clearly now.

On your thread, I try to just post what was going through my mind at that time..... I am trying not to point out where I was wrong over there.

Ok, thank you. That helps to understand.

So you would say that entitlment was starting to creep in or have you always felt entitled to things?

I do think it was creeping in. I guess I did feel entitled to certain things...

And over here I can say I suppose I was thinking I was entitled to certain things from my wife and she was not willing. Never did I stop to think about why she was unwilling. I just said it's her problem, I tried.

It's amazing how our minds, thinking process and actions little by little in the end destroy lives.

Isn't it

I dont know if I would use the word amazing. Sad would be more appropriate.

But yes, and at the time you feel completly justified in what you are doing.

Ok, I'm jumping. Everyone says that A always end. I don't know if WH'S will or not, it's 2 1/2 years and going strong with the crack addict who has hep c.

Does your thread explain what happened at the end and how you started coming out of the fog.

Given your limited knowledge, do you think that Dr. Harley is pretty dead on treating this like an addiction.

I started comming out of the fog months ago, when I saw how hard my wife was fighting to make herself a better person, I saw how she was fighting,for herself and me, even though what I had done. I had not admitted it, but she knew. Thats when I turned myself into a more miserable POS if you can believe that was possible. And thats what killed whatever love she had left for me. I knew how bad a mistake I had made, and continued to make.

I knew then that I was losing her, but was not man enough to admit my wrongdoing. It took me discovering her A with my former friend to make me "go crazy", get desperate, and admit what I had done.

As for treating it like an addiction... I was certainly addicited to my OW. The good times we had, the laughs, the lunches... It was everything I was missing at home. And after I started comming out of the fog, i started just drinking to avoid my emotions. Really attractive huh?

Even after I sent the NC letter about a month ago, I still called the OW once a day later. I did tell my wife and Steve Harley this. But as time went on, it got easier and easier to not even think about her. I wont say I dont, I still do from time to time, but Steve gave me some ways to nip that in the bud and I must say it worked.

If my wife did not find this site I think I would still be in lala land with the OW and probably would still feel completly justified in what I was doing.

I'm an addict, I don't judge just pray you completely understand and come to terms with your behavior and change it.

When I crawled back into the rooms of AA I was desparate to do anything to make the pain of his abandoning us go away. I had so much to learn and change and it's been a tough road for me. But I do believe that if we are addict/alcoholics our bottom is coming one day. How much destruction and pain is out of control.

I don't understand what you mean by if your wife hadn't found this site you would still be in lala land?

I'm going to keep asking questions, but please know I understand if you don't have the ability or are comfortable answering. I just need to fight till the end, and right now you are my armour of peace and letting go of WH further.

How did you see that Zora was changing and did you let it in or lie to yourself about what she was doing?