It sounds like he really does want to help, he's just clumsy about showing it.

kinda like the way I *pictured* 6yearsleft's WW, er, XWW. Although I guess I was wrong about her, the picture may apply here: he is on the outskirts, wanting in but not clear how, and his attempts are clumsy and often do the opposite of what he intended.

Him listening from the doorway all that time is touching, and a little sad... I hope *your* heart is still open.

Oh yeah. Like I said, it was sweet. I hope he's doing a lot of thinking. He's a great person, when his FOO and anger and pessimism don't drag him under.

I am sad that it's taken me this long to get strong enough to show him what he's doing.

I do sometimes tell him what to say to her to get her to feel closer to him. I urge him to go on walks with her. I send them shopping together or horseback riding. But what was missing was compassion and empathy. I think he's really thinking about such things now, though.

Well, D18's boyfriend broke up with her yesterday. He cited three main reasons:

He broke up with a long-term gf this summer and just wants to be single, being a couple is too stressful.

He can't get past the difference in their...age. By that I mean D18 has been so sheltered because of H, not getting to go anywhere by herself until this past spring, having to ask permission to go out on a date, having never been like the other kids who hang out all the time, go to parties, go to the beach...while he's been doing that stuff for a good 5 years now. She's just too child-like and it made him uncomfortable.

The issues with H were frankly too daunting. BF said he could handle it, but D18 kept bringing it up in their conversations, thinking BF would give her some feel-good, or confidence, or commiseration. But it just made BF feel too weird about their relationship.

Last night, she told us the first two things, and it about drove H crazy. 'What do you mean, you never asked us to go to any parties.' Stuff like that. I kept telling him let's not get bogged down in the details of this party or that beach trip - what counts is that she doesn't feel safe coming to us to ask permission because she assumes we'll say no, and other kids stopped asking her to go to such things cos they knew we'd say no.

So basically, what IC told him in that one meeting is coming true. It's really upsetting him.

D18 is half sad, half mad, so that's good. But I can't get her to eat anything. I think it's her pride more than anything; they've only been going out since 9/11.

Cat, sorry to hear that.

"The issues with H were frankly too daunting."

I hear you, that this is what the BF said. I had a super-dysfunctional family, too, when I was that age, and that didn't scare the guys away, it was something we share in common LOL. Maybe they were codependent and liked to be a soft place to fall. Maybe it's a good thing that your DD didn't fall for some "you and me against the world" teen angst guy.

What I'm saying is that the BF's decision was about him, not about your DD or your H. IMO It's not about good and bad and being judgmental, more about what they each want and don't want for their life. And what were the chances that they wouldn't have broken up, anyhow?

How are you feeling, cat? How's your self-care? You inspire me when you tell me about how good you're doing at the gym

Oh, I know, and D18 knows, that it isn't our fault they broke up - something H, I or D18 did. She's not taking that on her shoulders. She's just feeling the pain of being rejected. She wasn't in love with him or anything, it's just her pride that's hurting.

I brought that up because it falls into the problem with H. In the last two days, he has brought up the Victoria's Secret thing, the dating thing, the party thing, the bf thing...so he's mulling it around, about his part in her life. That's a good thing.

She's a lot better today, we talked a lot about how they may get back together later, or how she can flirt and find new guys, and when she starts work next week she'll meet tons of guys.

They're still friends and he's still taking her to Homecoming in 2 weeks, and they discussed maybe getting together later. So she's going to school with the attitude that she's going to play up her positive attitude, play down the breakup, and go back to being her fun-loving self.

Anyway...I actually went back to the gym yesterday after several months. Felt good. But I pulled a muscle in my side, so that's fun...And I went back on my diet and Alli pills. And stopped drinking wine. So I'm in pretty good shape. We saw a gorgeous toned body on tv the other night and I said I was going to look like that, and H just laughed at me (in a fun way, not condescending). So it has given me a nudge to exercise every day in some way. I'll get there!

Maybe she would want to do a sort of 180 with him (and with her dad also) and start spreading her wings a bit? Show her (x)bf that she is becoming more independent, and asserting some of her independence with her dad? It might be good for her in general, not as an attempt to win back the bf. That might just be the incentive she needs.

You're right.

I think working at Best Buy is going to open up a whole new world for her, and really thrust her into the 'real' world. I told H this morning that her best friend, who she had talked into applying, had gotten a second interview so was probably going to get a job, too. He started in on how big a mistake that was, how M was going to 'ruin everything for D18.'

?

He explained that M would be jealous if D18 met a guy, and she'd try to mess it up; how she's never been a true friend (untrue; this girl is super sweet); how D18 picks all the wrong friends and THAT is the reason she's having trouble now with boys.

sigh

Cat, why's she worried about boys, anyhow? I'm grateful my DD12 isn't at that stage yet! She's a beautiful girl, and they'll seek her out soon enough.

Good for you for getting back to the gym! I'm glad to hear that you've stopped with the wine, because you've expressed concern about that several times now. Is it okay with your Dr. that you even drink at all while on ADs? I remember alcohol is a depressant itself, do you remember that, too?

Cat, have you ever told her, "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." IMO, that goes both ways. Especially at that age, she can get her ENs met with her friends instead of seeking out suitors, right? Especially since she's still working out her autonomy and boundaries with you guys?

My concern is how she just broke up with the guy yesterday, and is already concerned where she can meet the next one?

It was really in the context of her talking about how her self-esteem is suffering; the last 3 guys she's dated have dropped her, so she's trying to figure out if there is something wrong with her. Of course I say no, and point out how amazing she is, but it still worries her that there's something inherently wrong with her. Like any teenager thinks, I guess.

So we were brainstorming ways she can 'get out there' and get her back to feeling ok about herself. IC will have her hands full next week!

I would think most likely because she doesn't just tell them what they want to hear. Good for her! Anyone can be a yes-man and keep boyfriends at that age. What do you think?

I'm sure that's part of it. I've always taught her that high school boys are just part-time fun, that she's not likely to meet her soul mate there, or even in college, that there's a huge world of people out there she should wait for. So that's what she believes. Which is good.

But it makes her different. You know typical teen girls - romance, affection, being in love, etc. She won't get caught up in it.

But she said all she wants is to have a fun last year. And if she had been C's girlfriend, it would have been. She doesn't want to spend the whole year flirting with guys and hoping they'll reciprocate. She spent the entire junior year unattached; no one would ask her out and if they did, would decide not to continue it. So her ego's taking a real beating.

Cat, I understand her pain, I didn't have my first boyfriend until I got to college. My friends were mostly in the same boat, though, and we had a ton of fun together. We went out in mixed boy and girl groups, attached and unnattached. Looking back, I don't think I'd trade my high school experience for pregnancy scares and the other trials my friends went through.

Boy, isn't that the truth!

Interesting day. Got up early and went to see mother while H and D were still in bed. Came back, H was on computer, stayed there for 2 or 3 hours. I cleaned out pantry and washed laundry all afternoon. D18's ex boyfriend came over and they went to the park, H thought they'd be home by 3 (he misheard them); he stayed on computer til 5 when D18 came home. Upset, he had wanted to take her to some car dealerships to test drive cars; it was all boyfriend's fault, of course. But I didn't let that slide this time. I kept responding to his vague assumptions of guilt on boyfriend, made him prove his assertions of how bad the boy was; he couldn't. He finally realized he couldn't argue that the boy had done anything wrong, quit griping about him. It kept it from blowing out of proportion like it usually does, where H makes it all about him and how we're trying to do something to him. He finally quit. We had dinner, he tried to bring it up again with D18, she didn't let him get away with it either, he quit again.

Oh, and he has discovered the world of message boards! We have one in our community, and I've been vocal on it. He recently logged in and started making comments about people on our Board who he doesn't like. You know how I am always protecting him, or making excuses for him? Well, this time, I'm not. I told him that he was setting himself up for a lot of fights online if he proceeds to criticize this one person he hates so much, and I made a couple suggestions to tone it down a little. And I warned him. He sent it anyway. So he's been back to check all day for responses. Finally got one tonight criticizing him, and he's back at it again. I've created a monster! But the main point is that I told him that he was on his own, that this was going to make a lot of people (should say a lot more people) unhappy with him; he posted anyway.

So I'm learning to detach from both his anger at me and D18 and from protecting him from himself. Sorry if that sounds like a DJ, but you'd have to be here to understand what he does, how people pretty much steer clear of him because they know all he ever talks about is how bad everything is, how crooked everyone is, etc. I can count on one hand the number of conversations he's had in this neighborhood in 5 years that weren't complaining about something. He thinks, I think, that it makes him look more important; but it really just makes people uncomfortable.

Anyway, I'm fairly proud of how I handled everything today.

Good for you and DD for calling him on his attempts to blame exBF (now BF again?) for everything including global warming and the stock market crash. And great for not letting it turn into being all about him and how y'all always attack him!

Also, great for you for letting go of the response re. the online msg board. Actually, if these aren't ppl you know in RL (but it sounds like they may be, if it's a community board) then it may be a good way for him to practice and learn some interpersonal skills.


Me too, I'm proud of you too!

Heh. And don't forget the war in Iraq!

D18 and exBF are friends for now, but he's still taking her to Homecoming Dance Saturday. She has this killer - and I mean killer - black dress I bought her for her birthday that she's going to wear, and she asked me if she was a bad person for thinking that if she wore this dress and it made him want her more, if that was manipulative.

H got some more responses on his thread last night - really interesting ones, calling him out. I just smiled at him and said 'I told you so...'

Honestly, this may be one of the best things to happen (or the worst). Our annual meeting is Thursday, so this will be fresh in everyone's mind, so I'm expecting him to get taken down a peg or two, at least called out on being such a jerk. I think it will be an eye-opener for him. He still thinks most people are on his side, that they all hate the current board members like he does. But they don't. They don't go around looking for things to tear people down about; they're just glad to live in a nice neighborhood. Should be interesting. I just hope I don't end up on the receiving end of all his stress Thursday night. Need to pack a bag, just in case.

Wow, cat, good for you, I'm happy to see you taking actions that are boosting your self-confidence What is the difference, that you were willing to make changes in your behavior?

"So I'm learning to detach from both his anger at me and D18 and from protecting him from himself. Sorry if that sounds like a DJ, but you'd have to be here to understand what he does, how people pretty much steer clear of him because they know all he ever talks about is how bad everything is, how crooked everyone is, etc. "

Cat, I hear you that you see his actions as not working for him, so you would protect him from the consequences. What if his actions were working for him, like it says in that book? That he really did want to isolate these folks out of his life, and there were the tools that he had to do that? Were you DJing the result that you thought he wanted, or maybe he did talk about the results he wanted?

And instead of trying to attain that for him, you are backing away from enabling him? Not doing for him what he can choose to do for himself? Cool, right?

I'm pretty sure he wants to be loved and admired by the whole community. A year later, he is still grousing about not winning the board election last year. He just can't see that his animosities aren't universal. I'm guessing that, since he looks for the problem in everything, he assumes everyone else does, too, so they should be grateful to him for pointing out all the problems.

Unfortunately, he does it by singling out certain people as the culprits, when I think it's just the general mentality here.

For instance, last year we didn't have a quorum to vote in new board members, so two of the current board members made phone calls to people and got their votes over the phone. Now, I don't know if they later went to these people's houses and got a written vote, but if they didn't, it's not a legal vote. Just like they didn't vote in the budget. So he's all up in arms that they just do things how they feel like, instead of following legal procedures. Now, I agree we're doing a terrible job of following those procedures, but he's about the only person in a 3000-home community that seems to even care about it. He doesn't see that others are ok with it; they just want to get on with things. So he's seen as something of an oddball, or worse.

Cat, to protect yourself, would you want to find some way to let ppl know that you don't share his views on this? Maybe a light-hearted post saying "The views of my H don't necessarily reflect the views of me"? Or calling a couple of the more vocal (i.e. gossipy or influential) members of the community and letting them know?