Thank you all for your responses. It actually seems like a no-brainer, but for some reason I'm so insecure about asking for POJA on this. I've been very needy and insecure these last few weeks.

I'm going to talk to him tonight after we put our little one to bed.

This says it all!!!!

IMHO married people should not go on trips with out their spouse (unless it is work related) ever. Heck i do not even think they should go out for an evening without their spouse but that is just my opinion.

If you dont want him to go becouse you think it is a "double standard", well, I dont think that is a good reason.

If you dont want him to go becouse you are genuinly uncomfortable with it, well thats understandable. Just tell him how you feel in a caring, loving way. Offer him compramizing alternatives such as you going along.

In the past I have been yelled at, cussed out, and berated by my wife for being so imorall as to go to a strip club (after I was given permission to go). According to her, no decent married man would do such a thing. Yet somehow, unlike her, I mannaged to never have an affair/ONS or anything else like that. Funny how that works, aint it.

I would NOT use this as a reason you dont want him to go.
Everyone, and every situation is differant. But I would not react well to this being a reason why my spouse who had an affair didn't want me to do somthing.

That said, after I calmed down I would probably understand. But at first I would probably react poorley.

If you do use this as a reason, please try to do it in a way that does not make it sound like you think he would ever do anything wrong.

Wile I do understand this, even from your side. On the surface it seems silly to pose restrictions on your spouse becouse of somthing "you" did. But I do understand why you would want that to be the case.
(you know, and fear what could happen)

MrsZ:

If your uncomfortable with him going, then you need to have THAT discussion with him.

H going to a Strip Club? Makes you nervous? Talk about that.

H going to LV with a "buddy" who just had a baby with new W? Danger in that. Betchs "buddy" may be looking to sow some wild oats.... They are NOT going to talk about "Being NEW Dads" Women would talk about that, but NOT men.

Your BS saying that "HE can GO, But you can't" because you had an A, is justification straight from the "Fogspeak" handbook. Yes, he has been trustworthy. But that could change with $100 and a Saturday night in LV. Throw some alcohol in and there you go....

Sorry, Dr. Harley has it right. We are all hardwired to have an A. We allow the right circumstances to line up and ALL of us can have a ONS, as a minimum. (Especially men, with justification on thier lips, alchohol in thier system and "nobody will ever KNOW!")

Mr Z is giving you the sense that this trip may be "something more" resulting in some of your reluctance. And you ALREADY know what happens when he goes on this trip.

So therefore, it's not a "double standard" If something is making you uncomfortable, and to such an extent that this is, then the spouse shouldn't insist on doing it. Either of YOU.

Full Disclosure: Flamingo and I have been to LV twice. The first time was 3 months after Dday. I COULD probably go alone NOW, if we discussed it. So could Flamingo. Flamingo KNOW'S the changes that I have made. But one of those changes is that WE come first. Flamingo is going on any trips with me, or I'm not going. And vice versa.

LG

I've not read the responses, but did you POJA this with your dh?

Where is the POJA and have you talked to your h about your feelings?

You both need to ENTHUSIASTICALLY (sp) agree on the issue before it is done.

Also, YES POJA and ALL of what you asked SHOULD BE the same for the bs as the ws...

SHOULD BE.

True, you may still have proving to do, but that doesn't mean your dh gets out of his responsibilities to shore up his half of the marriage.

I know I've put MAJOR boundries up since the Wookie's adultry...not just for him, but for us.

Kinda sounds like you two need to read up on POJA and discuss it together.

So, we talked last night and he agreed not to go, but he is a little resentful. I worked very hard to discuss it as gently as possible, but he didn’t validate my point of view. He found flaws in the reasons I gave, but since I was uncomfortable with it, he pretty much conceded.

One of the reasons I gave was that I was uncomfortable with the whole staying out all night with his buddy, which would involve all night drinking, gambling, possibly going to strip clubs, in a city where prostitution is legal and anything goes. He said he wouldn’t go to a strip club, but I explained I was still uncomfortable with it. He also explained that his buddy is his best friend, the best man at our wedding and this is the only chance he would get to see him. I asked if he could come out here instead, but logistically, it works out better to go to Vegas because it’s a halfway point for the two of them. Finally he said, if I don’t trust him, then he won’t go. I explained that it’s not that I don’t trust him, but Vegas is a place where it’s hard to keep your boundaries up.

Mr Z is a wonderful man, but he’s not perfect, and he has let his guard down in the past. Not to a full blown PA, but very close; groping, fondling, and kissing was involved and it almost became a ONS (at the very least). He told me about this a few weeks after I admitted to my PA. Although this happened a long time ago, (about seven years) Harley is right, we are all vulnerable.

The other reason I gave him is that I actually am bothered by the fact that I would be left at home taking care of our daughter while he goes out partying with his friend all night. I don’t understand why he would want to do that, and it hurts me a little.

The other reason I gave him is that I don’t think a trip to Vegas with a buddy isn’t consistent with the marriage we’re trying to build. It doesn’t feel like I’m being cared for or protected.

And the last reason I gave, which really bothered him, is the double standard. It seems that is all he heard! It is a real reason, but it’s definitely not the only one.

I’m glad he decided not to go, but I wish there weren’t the misgivings and resentment. We haven’t talked to the Harleys in a long time, we did 10 sessions and we’re more on our own now, but I’m certain Steve would agree that it isn’t a good idea. How can I get Mr Z to enthusiastically agree with me?

-MrsZ

Mrs Zonie

"a trip to Vegas with a buddy isn’t consistent with the marriage we’re trying to build. It doesn’t feel like I’m being cared for or protected.

And the last reason I gave, which really bothered him, is the double standard. It seems that is all he heard! It is a real reason, but it’s definitely not the only one."

I don't know if you feel this way or the "double standard" was said by your BH.

How is there a double standard?

This is a situation that a double standard can not be claimed.

"Sorry bluntness warning" Because you got to go out party and have an affair your. It's not fair for your BH to do the same. Even to get to at least party in the town whose nickname is sin city. The city that promotes itself as "Vegas, what happens here stays here".

"I’m glad he decided not to go, but I wish there weren’t the misgivings and resentment.....that it isn’t a good idea. How can I get Mr Z to enthusiastically agree with me?"

Any BH has to see a wife's fears and take steps to protect her.
You may not be getting the level of enthusiasm that you want for this. And, most likely will not.

You realized this was a case of maintaining boundries for the both of you. I think your BH agreed to not go because even though he does not want to admit it. That Vegas is not the place for a married spouse to go on vacations alone.

I am married and have been to vegas with friends many times (mostly for bachelor parties) since getting married and have never came close to having a ONS. Nor seeing a prostitute. My friends live all over the country and we get to hang out about once a year, usually in vegas. Cheap flights, cheap food, fun gambling. Has nothing to do with trying to get laid.


I have had many drinks and lots of $100 bills and see my above statement. If he wants a revenge A, he will have it. Does not take LV to make it happen. [/quote]


I disagree. See statements above. We can have a ONS, but no matter what we CHOOSE to have a ONS.


I would guess your reluctance is because of the fact that YOU had an AFFAIR. You know what could happen to you if you went to vegas. However, your husband should be given the benefit of the doubt that he is not going to have a revenge A. He now knows about boundaries and how people can fall into the trap. It is a "double standard" for you to think he will do the same thing that you did.

HOWEVER, if you feel uncomfortable with him going, you need to discuss it and tell him. You both need to work through it, talk through the insecurities. A marriage does need to be protected and if you feel this is real threat, then so be it. But don't assume he will do something just b/c you did.

Thank you H&S. Actually, my fear is based on what I know can happen, and as I mentioned in my last post, Mr Z hasn't been perfect in regards to keeping up boundries.

I think if I were to pick out the reason this bothers me the most is, I am worried that we are going to fall into old patterns that put our marriage at risk. When he used to go on these trips, it bothered me, but I never said anything. I think my passiveness was part of the problem.

Regarding the original post:

I'm big on not being a hypocrite. If I don't want my wife to go out for drinks without me, I'm not going out for drinks without her.

Many times I won't do something just so my W can't claim the same right. Is that passive-aggressive? I dunno.

I think ANY spouse should avoid those double-standards, whether infidelity is a factor or not.

For the record, I've always thought vacationing without your spouse, even on rare occasion, is an incredibly bad idea. I wouldn't even have the desire to.

H&S:

Since Dday for you was 9/17, I can understand how you feel.

I'm glad you can go with your buddies to Vegas and party and your personal boundaries have been protected.

But your Wife's boundaries were not.

And Mr Z already has a problem with inappropriate behavior. He is not a "pure" BH.

And for this:

Reluctance? I don't think so. I didn't have to travel to Vegas for my A. Personally? I walked across the hallway.

I just spent three days golfing with 17 other members of my golf group in VA. Flamingo doesn't have a problem with me going. Because she KNOWS what I USED to BE. And what I am NOW. Big difference. It ain't Vegas. And if the group wanted to go to Vegas, I probably could. But if Flamingo was raising the objections that Mrs Z was making, I wouldn't go. Simple as that.

Reluctance? No. It's what I have LEARNED since I have been with Marriage Builders.

I like the plan where Mr & Mrs Z and Mr & Mrs Best Friend get together in LV for the weekend. That works better all the way around.

And Hurt: You haven't been here long. That's ok. Your learning. I did. The hard way. And believe me, you don't know how bad Flamingo had it. Mine went on for 4.5 years. Everything that you went thru? Flamingo went thru. Plus more. I reget every part of it now. I can't change the past, only the future. And the future is much brighter because of MB.

LG

You might not get enthusiasm, but I think the fact that he agreed to stay home proves he knows you're right.

If it bothered you in the past and it still bothers you, tell him that. Tell him it has bothered you in the past so you wanted to be open and honest. You do not want any LBs or walls being built. I may have come off a little harsh, but I know I would be Pi$$ed Off if the reason was b/c my W thought i would have a revenge A or did not trust me to go. If she told me it bothered her and she did not feel comfortable for me, especially when we needed to be working on our marriage, I would undertand.

He!!, 2 weekends ago we had that very conversation. She was going to bed so I wanted to go see some friends of mine at a party. She did not want me going without her. I asked her if it was b/c she thought I was going to have a RA. She said no, it bothers me that you want to go out and have fun without me when we are supposed to be having fun together and working on our marriage. She said stay home and we will have fun together. So I did and I do not regret it.

H&S, her reluctance to agree to this is not related to her own past. Anyone who understands the concept of boundaries and how it protects a marriage should have an objection to this.

Having separate trips like this is bad for even GOOD marriages. It is a set up for affairs and it establishes a social life outside of the marriage. NOT GOOD. They should be spending their leisure time together, not apart.

It is not lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries.

And just as important to recognize is that independent behavior like this leads to great RESENTMENT, which is a disaster in marriage. She owes it to her H to protect her marriage from this by voicing her concerns.

MrsZ, in POJA, nothing is done unless there is enthusiastic agreement from both parties. If that can't be reached, then the default position is to do nothing.

Dr Harley made this profound statement over on the weekend board:

H&S,
Part of our talk last night was I did tell him it always bothered me that he went on these trips.

Melody,
Thank you for those insights on boundries. That really makes sense.

As betrayed spouses, do you ever get resentful about having to put up boundries because of what your spouse did? I think Mr Z is feeling angry about not being able to go because of my A. In other words, if I hadn't done what I did, he would have been able to go.

But now I see that even if there was no infidelity, these trips are not good for a marriage. But at the moment, we disagree. He doesn't see anything wrong with going and he's angry.

A M consists of two separate individuals, with different ENs. In many cases, what works for me, doesn't work for my spouse. And vice-versa. I like to hike. My FWW does not. She's comfortable with me going hiking on my own. I'm not comfortable with her doing the same thing.

I can think of a number of other situations where the "tit for tat - you can't do X because I can't do X" thing simply doesn't work.

I'd go even further and suggest that it's unhealthy to use that type of decision-making process in any M.

Instead, you should refer to the 4 "Rules" as laid out by Harley, in particular "Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness".

It's pretty simple, really. You judge and choose YOUR actions based on how they may contribute to your spouse's unhappiness, and your spouse should do the same. If they aren't (like in this situation, where Mr. Z clearly wasn't exercising that judgment), then it's time to talk and exercise some POJA if necessary.

That is NOT the reason we have boundaries in our marriage, though. It has absolutely nothing to do with my H's affair. The reason we have boundaries is because we love each other and want to protect our marriage at all costs.

Let me put it another way. I don't play chicken. But that is not because I have ever played chicken and been hit by a car. It is because I value my life too much to risk it like that. These boundaries are something that every couple who wants to have a good marriage should observe, affair or not. It just happens that you KNOW about it because of your affair.

Blaming your affair for this missed trip misses the point entirely. Anyone who wants to have a GOOD MARRIAGE should not take separate vacations, regardless of whether there was an affair or not.

No.

I see it as PROTECTING something good and precious.

I don't get resentful when I have to put my foot down and protect my children (curfews, etc.).

Why should protecting something equally important to me be any different?

I can really see a difference in attitude with the vets vs the newly betrayed. I love how you all view your marriage as precious and something to be protected, and there is no resentment about it. Your posts are very inspirational to me, Dealan, Melody, The Road, Man in Motion, and LG, thank you for taking the time to post to me.

I would guess the newly betrayed can still feel the sucking chest wound caused by the waywards while the 'vets' have forgotten alot of the pain. Kinda like childbirth?

Frankly, it's a little disappointing to see a FWW speak that way about the newly betrayed.