What topics do you like to talk about, Cat?

There would actually be two reasons for us, I guess. But mainly because he makes us late. So if we agreed to drive two cars, say to church (we are always late - always), D18 and I could leave and have no stress about showing up someplace late.

For instance, I'll say I'm taking D18 to piano lesson (which is across town, a 40-minute drive); he does or doesn't acknowledge me, as he is laying in bed watching tv; I spend 20 or 30 minutes getting ready; then as I'm picking up my keys, he gets out of bed and says 'wait a minute, I'm going too.' We were leaving with enough time to get to class on time; now we're late. I know I could ask him 'are you going' but when I do that, he says no, and then often changes his mind anyway, because he's decided we need to do something on that side of town.

As for Saturday, D18 had a 4pm hair appointment and a 5pm nail appointment. He said the funeral was at noon, we had to be there on the dot at noon to get into the limousines. We get there, and waited almost 2 hours! So, ok, the funeral is at 2. If it lasts an hour (Fats wanted a short funeral), we'd still have time to get back for her appointments. I ask if I should take the car to the church in case it runs long, he says no - that would be embarrassing. The service didn't end until after 4:30! Then we loaded up in the limos again and went to the graveyard and did the service there. We didn't get back to his house until 5:30.

By that time, I had already called and cancelled the appointments, and tried to assure D18 that I could do a decent job on her hair, she didn't really need the nails done, and I know how to do the makeup she wanted. She knew that was all a load of crap, but she didn't say anything, bless her heart. Did cry a bit, though.

Her exbf was supposed to pick her up at 6 to go to dinner before the dance started at 7. She and I got home at 6:30, her hair wouldn't curl right, so she just ended up wearing a ponytail. But she said 'that's ok mom, I don't mind, really' trying to make me feel better. Anyway, she kept telling him to come later and later, and they finally left at 7:15. So basically the day was a total bust for her, when she had hoped to dazzle the boy so much that he'd ask her out again. Instead, they came home from the dance, and he ended up crying on our couch, as he confessed to her that the reason he broke up with her was that he still loved his old girlfriend (they broke up this summer), who is also D18's friend. Oy vey.

Okay, cat, I got the story really wrong, and I'm sorry. Why did you believe that your H would give you the whole story? Does he have a history of being accurate? Are you in denial? Did you know he didn't have the whole story, and were scared of ruining his day? Not trying to find blame, trying to find the growth experience.

Why didn't your daughter ride separately? Does she drive? Did she trust her dad to be accurate, or was she aware that you all didn't have the whole story? Why didn't she suggest having a friend pick her up for the appointments?

Have you and your daughter shared how you felt about all this, in an owning each of your parts way, instead of blaming it all on him?

Wow. Lots of questions!

I had no reason to believe he was lying when he said we had to be there at 12 to get in the limos. Obviously he misunderstood. But he doesn't purposely lie about such things, he simply doesn't measure time well.

These are people I've spoken to maybe twice in 30 years, so I didn't feel comfortable calling them for clarification. In other situations, I can do so, and will be taking more responsibility from now on. I tried really hard not to rain on his parade because it was his best friend's funeral; I was just trying to console him and D18 at the same time. She loved Fats, but she's also a kid, so her allegiance was halved, you know?

D18 doesn't have a license yet. She's not one to take chances, so she wanted to wait til she had more experience before taking the test (which we're doing Thursday - yay!). And the funeral was in another town, an hour away from home. It wouldn't have been practical to ask anyone to come get her; she only has about 2 friends who even drive yet or have cars anyway.

She does not trust him to be accurate. It's a running theme with her, that if dad's involved, we're going to be late, we're going to end up going somewhere she didn't want to go, she has no control, she's going to have to give up plans she had...all true; it happens all the time. Because I don't do all I can to address it beforehand, and because he usually refuses to tell us what his plans are. If I ask before we leave the house, he'll say we're going to Lowes or something like that; and then once we go there, he starts going on other errands he wants to do. He just assumes we should do it with him.

So I have to learn to be willing to deal with his AOs to get a more even relationship.

Thanks for the clarification. I understand better why it made sense to you to give your H the benefit of the doubt. And why your daughter was not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. You're already dealing with his AOs. I read this weekend, "Sometimes the only way out is through." Really, do either of you want another 30 years like this? Or a totally new way Where both of you are totally free together to work out things in ways that make both of you feel great.

The church was literally so packed that I would have had to do that pushing and pulling thing all the way out the door, you know where they have to squeeze onto each other to let me squeeze through. There were people filled up in the hallway, watching on a screen in the cafeteria and standing outside the church. If I had tried to do that, it would have drawn everyone's attention to me, and I thought that was inappropriate, given the situation. And I didn't want to embarrass H over it.

H was very aware of how we were feeling. Once I told him how late it was and said I was going to have to cancel the appointments, and D was crying, he got mad - at me and at himself, I imagine, for ruining D18's special day. So he got into that furious mode where he starts tapping his foot and all, and I just caved.

I was angry at myself for not protecting D18's plans and for not driving the car even though he told me not to. I wasn't exactly mad at H as much as exasperated at being put in this position yet again, and at being the person who tries to take care of everyone's needs.

Do you think I'm not in touch with my feelings? I don't understand. I don't see this situation about being right - at least not there, while it happened; I was just concerned about satisfying both of their needs. Here, I may be showing anger or hurt but I feel like it's just a general hurt at being at the place I'm at. Not about any one thing he's done wrong or I was right. Mainly just upset with myself for being this way.

You mean to H? I don't know. I barely ever talk at all, unless it's to get something accomplished, like 'the appointment is in 20 minutes' or something like that. If I talk to H, he usually gets bored with the conversation and changes the subject.

Honestly, it's been so long since I talked to anyone with any substance that I couldn't tell you what I would like to talk about.

Cat, I totally hear you. When I am had those coughing fits, I feel like everyone is annoyed, and all the way out, I feel ashamed and embarassed about it. That Healing the Shame that Binds You is really helping me with that. But yes, that is uncomfortable to inconvenience everyone, to be an annoyance to folks. And that would be uncomfortable, squeezing your way out like that.

I hear you that it would have been an embarassment to H, that you and DD18 left for homecoming. So this was a choice that you all made. But one that in hindsight you are not enthusiastic about. How can you make amends to yourself and let it go?

Your daughter had a responsibility here, too, to respectfully share her concerns with you and her dad. She chose to take a risk, going instead of stay home to get ready.

"Do you think I'm not in touch with my feelings? I don't understand. I don't see this situation about being right - at least not there, while it happened; I was just concerned about satisfying both of their needs. "

I was here talking more about the situation with xbf. How he has less clothes than your daughter, so your H was wrong to have a beef about the red shorts, and you calmly pointed it out to him.

I didn't think that this was something that made love bank deposits for you to discuss at length with him. That there may be other things that are more enjoyable for you to discuss with him. Topics that make you feel happy to talk about with people. Maybe where you'll travel to next year, or how good it's going to feel to get out of debt, how exciting that DD18 is having fun doing senior activities like homecoming.

Hi cat,

I want to let you know I'm reading, I just haven't posted. For one thing, I didn't want to post something saying "If you just did _____ everything woulda been fine!" For another thing, I could see myself getting in a similar situation, along with the incredible stress over obligations I felt to other people, the guilt, the anger at myself and the anger toward H. And I would be telling myself "Why didn't I just do ________, everything woulda been fine!"

Hindsight is 20-20. Can't do anything about that though. I'm glad to hear you spoke up when H started complaining about the exbf's shorts again. I'm also glad you will try harder next time to take two cars if there's any doubt.

I have another suggestion too: for the times like taking DD to lessons, when he stops you and asks you to wait for him right when you're walking out the door, what would you think about moving that whole routine earlier by 10 or 15 minutes? That way if he holds you up, you still get there on time. Worst case, he doesn't ask you to wait, and you get there early. For those times, you could bring a book to read, and DD could bring a book or some homework, so the time isn't wasted. Do you think something like that would work?

I've tried this before, with church, in the bad old days, and H was mad, "Church doesn't start until 11, why would you leave now?! What's wrong with you?" I'm grateful I can set boundaries, and let go of the repsonse. I hope Cat has better success.

Cat...What has helped me somewhat is making sure I have my husband's attention and reminding him a few times throughout the day like, "I'd like to make a point to be out at my parents by 2:00 so I can help mom with dinner."

Maybe, attaching a reason to when you want to leave might make him realize you aren't just arbitrarily throwing out a time to express some sort of control/power over the situation.

You know...guys tend to be practical, and if they think we're just making up rules to make up rules, they're less likely to go along with it, imo.

Sometimes I think lack of communication can really cloud a situation and screw things up, when in some cases, just explaining calmly why we need to do something my way is necessary and not just me being 'female' and 'fluttering around like a strung out diva.'

Oh...editing to say that another tactic is to give him an assignment, sort of, by saying "I really need your help with this today." or "I'm depending on you to get me to ________ by ________ so that I can make my other appointments on time." A little pressure won't kill him.

Of course I want that. Most of our problems come when it's some sort of crisis. Like yesterday, H was spending 2 or 3 hours in the kitchen making food to take to his friend's house, they said they'd start cooking down there around 4. He was so happy he was humming and half-smiling. So he calls one of them at 4 to say he's almost done, and they tell him they've already been eating all afternoon. So now his chance to be included in the immediate-family-only meal is slipping out of his fingers, and he starts snapping. He yelled at me because I don't have any wine in the house any more to put in his sauce - 'why didn't you buy some more this morning?!'; he yelled at me because he has to do everything with no one helping him (when I responded that I'd been helping him the whole time, he said that he meant his daughter, I just ignored that); he snapped at the mess in the kitchen (I'd been washing dishes the whole time); I forget what else.

So we were in crisis mode because he wanted to get there as fast as possible so they'd see him bringing in all this food. So as far as I can tell, this would not be an appropriate time to speak up about AOs or anything else I need, right? The only thing that would happen if I went 'through' that would be him feeling ignored and that I'm selfish.

I know I'm just griping today. I think I'm like this every Monday. Did you know that every Monday I treat myself to Mexican food for lunch, as a treat to get over the stress-filled weekend?

I really do want to be that person who works through everything. I think I'm going to need to up my medicine.

I hear you about the bf and other topics. I'm just afraid that he's going to call his father card and refuse to let D18 go out with the kid. I know that's D18's problem. But I also think it's mine because H, while having valid concerns, is truly just reacting out of his anger that the kid didn't show enough respect the first time they met. He has said so 3 or 4 times. And I don't want our family coming to verbal blows because of it. It's not that I care about the kid that much, though D18 does; it's that now that she's being allowed to date finally, I don't want this to be the pattern that's set - that dad gets to hold court and meet the boy and give his blessing or denial. Without getting POJA with me.

I worry about him doing such a thing because I have a really good relationship with D18 right now, where she keeps me informed and doesn't feel the need to go behind our backs. I don't want her to feel she has to rebel for what I think (DJ here) is an unmerited judgment on H's part based on his own insecurities.

Cat, I have been rereading that Boundaries in Marriage, and it is so good. Tells you step by step what folks do to get through this.


That's HIS TO OWN. You are SO WORTH PROTECTING cat. You don't have to accept unnacceptable behavior. I am so glad that you were able to trace through to WHY you didn't act.

What about speaking up ahead of time, that you are making this change, and then later, would that make it easier to follow through?

Cat, I'm not where I need to be. I feel inadequate talking to you about this, because I am still learning, still working my way through. I pray that you find some folks like LA who have made it through to the other side. This is why I encourage you to try Alanon, to spend time IRL with folks who have conquered this. Who have whacked these behaviors way outta the park.

Did you know that every Monday I treat myself to Mexican food for lunch, as a treat to get over the stress-filled weekend?

OMG, I thought it was me. Subway addict here.

Jayne, you're right, I need to be more proactive to protect everyone from the emergencies we always end up with. When I asked him why he said we had to be there at noon Saturday (he said that he knew it wasn't until 1 or 2), he said that it's because I always make him late to everything and he wanted to make sure we didn't miss it.

I said 'I wish you would have told me the truth, I could have tried to fit in D18's appointments before, and then we wouldn't be worrying about the time.' He said 'I told you she had time to get a friend to come with her.' And I said, 'Yes, but you also told me we couldn't afford to be there a single minute past 12. If it was truly ok to be there after 12, I needed to know it.' He didn't say anything else.

*sigh*

I'm just throwing something out there to be considered, ok? I haven't thought this through and I wouldn't be able to anyway, I don't know what's going on in other people's heads.

But when I hear about cat, ears, Soolee and others taking such efforts to get their husbands places on time, I'm wondering if there's too much enmeshment, or too much taking responsibility for others, or too much protection or parenting? I would never think to remind my H several times a day for *anything*; it would be a huge LB if I said anything more than once. Of course my H is *way* different in that respect. In some ways he seems the complete opposite of cat's H, who wants to talk and wants cat to be on hand to help. So I don't have any experience and maybe don't have anything useful to say. But I wonder what would happen if you ever just left without him? Calmly, not angrily; just saying "If you aren't ready by x:00 then you can take the second car when you're ready."

Sooly, I love Subway too, lol.

ears, I know I need to start focusing more on this stuff, reading more, but I don't think I can handle the Alanon thing. My ego is so shame-filled and minute right now that I don't think I could even make it into a room of strangers.

I really need to get the nerve to talk to him ahead of time. I'm just...it still makes me want to throw up thinking about it.