I get your point, but I have a different take:

I think adultery is the symptom of a dysfunctional person. That spouse who cheats "because he/she isn't happy" was always going to cheat, no matter who they ended up marrying.

Amen Krazy!

Just remembered these:

"They weren't dates. You have to have romantic intent for them to be dates."

(The online flirting, saying "You know you want me" apparently isn't romantic intent)

So if you go out with a "friend" with no romantic intent and end up with your clothes off, what does your outing to dinner and a movie followed by taking your clothes off and engaging in oral sex?

Am I missing something? Is this how "friends" hang out now a days?

I must be doing something wrong with my friends or have different standards for friendship.

I thought I'd add that the one instance of PA is the one I know about. I have suspicions she kissed another date and she certainly had an EA with one of the guys she liked.

I was 48 years old when I had my A (I'm 54 now). I married my H when I was 20 and had been married faithfully and happily for 28 years, never looking at another man.

If I was a completely "dysfunctional person" wouldn't I have made/found an opportunity to cheat during those 28 years? My boundaries with men are very strong. Men don't ever come on to me - I have a "barrier" that men don't dare cross. My boundaries with the OM weren't there because of our past history.

I wouldn't say we had a dysfunctional marriage either. We were going through a very bad time (grief) but we'd been through bad times before (the worst was our son dropping out of school at 15).

Obviously you were dysfunctionally dysfunctional

Well No if their lips are moving right? I find "F"'s hard earnt quite relevant actually.


So I asume you are abandoning Christ and your profession of faith in Him as well.

The whole message of the gospel is that people can in fact change.

In the immortal words of John Newton at the end of his life. "These 2 things I know - I am a great sinner and Christ is a great saviour"




People DO fundamentally change. Just because you accepted too little from your wife in recovery does not mean your experience extends to any WS other than her. But hey - you don't need SF right? You're staying for the children right? OHHHHHHHHHHH did you suddenly discover that dog doesn't hunt?


Well my wife takes all the extrordinary precautions I have ever thought of and then some she has thought of herself. She has had opportunities to restart her affair and IMMEDIATELY closed the loophole with another precaution.

I could use some cash Appy - how much would you like to wager?


No Appy - YOU need to wake up. Has your wife started another affair or did you just discover the first one never ended?

You need to wake up and realise that YOUR wife is NOT my wife and she does not represent any of the FWW's here. It takes a special kind of evil WW to perpetrate an affair for 9 years like yours did/has. Just because YOU didn't take action, divorce her, whatever, you think it's open season on FWW's with your bitter little rants.


Yes because it does.


Dr Harley even says most marriages do not recover from adultery. But he likewise says 100% of marriages where his program is followed DO.

I do believe most cases where there is serial adultery or a spouse who refuses to engage in recovery should divorce - that IS what I tell them.


Never been known to stay quiet.


Well dammit - we almost had a point of agreement. 1/2 a point!


Yes you are a sorry bitter BS. A pity you didn't get some balls when it was clear that your wife was not up to recovery. A pity that instead of divorcing her,you let her do it again.


Yes I agree you are very foggy.

Aphelion

I do think your experiences have placed you in a position where you require epistemological evidence in order to accept that there are former adulterers who are fully rehabilitated and truly in love with their spouse.

I can understand your view, but I do not share it. I see many examples of WS who have earned their "F" as diligently as possible and they have matching BS who seek to accept that " F" too. I genuinely do consider them blessed.

My own recovery and marriage are not what I had hoped for when I started this journey, but in truth the issues are far DEEPER than the earnestness of Squid's "F". She actually does protect her weaknesses these days, and I suspect she would only have another affair if she set out to: another would not "sneak up" on her by her unwisely playing with the potential of it as happened last time.

I know from some off-boards communications that many or MOST marriages that recover fully are not represented here. Folks see little need to hang around here when they are too busy enjoying their new lives: better than they ever dreamed could occur at one time.

Even *I* believe that my own marriage could one day achieve that level - it is just that I am out of ideas , and without a plan at this time to get us there.

MB worked wonderfully at ending the A, managing us through withdrawal and early recovery and set us with the tools to build a recovered marriage if we choose to.

As yet, Squid hasn't chosen to. And I am tired of being the "one hand clapping"

None of that blinds me to the very real successes in recovery that abound. Are they the majority ? No. But it is achievable enough to shoot for IMO.

Without a SHRED of hypocrisy I advocate MB to the folks who attend my MC coaching session through my church. I believe in it.

MB didn't fail you or I, Aphelion, some of the the protagonists failed MB IMO.

All blessings

Alphelion,

There is a theory widely taught in college psychology courses that people have no choice in what they do. Aristotle taught long ago that virtue has to do with people making good choices.

People do have choices. People can change their behavior, and character is nothing but the habit of making good choices.

People who have committed adultery have, in the past, made the choice to hurt the one they had made a commitment to cherish. It is a dreadful choice which is reflective of a series of prior choices to not care.

That doesn't mean that they cannot care in the future. It means that they need to build new habits to care.

It's not an easy road to make such drastic changes, but it is possible, and it is only the former adulterer who can make those choices.

Cherished

And yet you exacerbate the situation with BS bashing.

Guess who the bad guy REALLY is.

It ain't Aph.

Every one of your arrogant attacks merely reinforce his position.

I think we are ALL vulnerable to affairs under the right circumstances and those of us who recognize that vulnerability are, in my opinion, LESS likely to cheat because we take precautions with avoiding doing so. We set boundaries and stick to them.

My exww is a good example of someone with poor boundaries. She wanted to have guy friends when we were married and these were guys she had just met. There was interaction which made me very uncomfortable and we had many arguments about it.

My theory was that a "friendship" could be very innocent or appear to be that way, but that all it takes is a moment of weakness in a marriage where there is friction, a down time, or a really bad argument and the "friend" could look different.

Suddenly this "friend" is more sensitive, understanding and caring than your own spouse and they start to meet ENs. At that point, it's a slippery slope.

My ex didn't understand that and always had the philosophy of "you should trust me" and "I couldn't look at him that way at all".

I, on the other hand, had very strict boundaries with other women due to my father's philandering. I understood the risks and how something could start innocently and lead down a path that destroys families.

I had strict boundaries which were tested. A female pilot coworker one day after the end of "major combat operations" put her feet on my lap while we were all sitting on the beach, relaxing after the major combat missions were over. The whole squadron was there and we were all sitting around.

She stuck her feet on my lap and said, "rub my feet".

I was surprised by this and taken back a little. I said, in my head, "the only feet I'm ever rubbing are my wife's" and was a little grossed out by her feet.

I ignored her and think she got the hint.

In the end, I had boundaries and she didn't and she was the one who cheated.

So I do think that people can change and a former wayward can certainly learn about weak boundaries and prevent infidelity from happening again.

Of course they are vulnerable to an affair. They recognize that they are. But the fact is we are ALL vulnerable and could succumb to the temptation under the right circumstances.

You don't have to be completely dysfunctional to cheat. That's why otherwise normal people act like morons as it relates to their affair. Some cheaters' flaws manifest themselves as soon as they start dating in high school...sometimes it takes decades. Either way, the flaw is always there. You're not exempt because you were faithful for a long time before you cheated.

You THOUGHT your boundaries were strong. It seems like they are now, but clearly they weren't before your A. If they had been, you wouldn't have cheated with anyone, including OM.


Every spouse goes through the same marriage as the other spouse in the marriage with them. The difference is how we react to good times and bad.

Those who have certain flaws, cheat. Those who don't, don't.

I think Krazy is saying that some people have flaws (i.e. that in certain situations people cheat), and others do not. I tend to disagree with the notion that all of us could cheat in the right circumstance. The whole in the right circumstances, the right ego boosts, the right ENs being met, I could cheat. I don't buy it b/c the circumstances would NEVER be right since i am married and took a committment. Therefore, I stop it from ever getting far enough to lead to an affair. Some people can't stop it and that is their flaw.

Yes, but remember what we see here isn't the general reality. Most who fail leave, and as Dr H says, most don't recover and the chances are even more remote if it's a WW vs a WH.

So don't discount Aphelion's view. I think what is being said is recover is a RARE event. That aspect makes since given that Dr H says the same thing.

While it may be 100% true that recovery is possible, frankly I rank that to be as credible as most political ads, or weight loss commercials. It's possible to lose 100# on some program, but in small type we see that what is being described is not the typical result.

So I think we need to be Open and Honest with anyone who comes and tell them that yes, MB can work, we have examples of recovered marriages. But the typical result is that the marriage will not recover. We have far more examples of that happening.

But those are not the ones we talk about, so we begin to believe that the typical result is recovery. Even Dr H says that recovery is NOT the typical result.

I think it can happen as well. But I think it's rare. I can also understand how a BS might think that leopards don't change their spots. Because few have personally witnessed such a transformation.
I think the same is true, even more so for marriages that fail to recover. How many fail at MB and don't return because there is nothing left to do? Frankly, I suspect recovering marriages are OVERREPRESENTED here because that means work is still on-going, while failed attempts at recovery are UNDERREPRESENTED because there is nothing left to do once the wayward chooses to divorce, etc.
This is an example of what I'm talking about. This is MB, so if there is no marriage to build, it's not likely you would be here. You are here because you are looking for more ideas to build and recover your marriage.

Perhaps that blinds you to the reality that your case is a very RARE case.

MB may or may not fail. I once thought if by using MB I was unable to entice my wife back to the marriage that it was an MB failure. To some extent, I still believe that. I used MB. I eliminated LB's and sought to meet my XW's emotional needs. The problem is, no program will work if the other person is unwilling to have their needs met.

That is the "flaw" or limitation is probably a better word with MB, that it can be rejected by the wayward spouse.

Now Dr H characterizes this as not being a failure of MB, but a failure of one of the people in the marriage. I can see that. But by the same token, why is the program not able to burn through the fog and demonstrate to the WS that what they are chasing is a lie?

If success is defined as recovered marriages, then MB will usually fail. Dr H even says most marriages don't survive infidelity.

So I can see how someone would say that it's just like those diet commercials that say in microscopic type at the bottom of the screen that these results are not typical.

Possible, yes.

Typical, no. Even Dr H says that.

That is a key truth one must face when in such a circumstance.

It's what Steve Harley told me when I counseled with him. I doubt it has changed in the past 5+ years.

Just a couple of comments on your post EE.


I think it's important to keep this in perspective. MB may offer some hope to a BS who's situation is currently hopeless, but it is no guarantee. There are an immeasurable number of other variables involved. And what we see among the membership here is not a true representation of the real world. There are many BS's who would toss the WS to the curb without thinking twice and NEVER seek help here.

But...


You and I are both here with no marriage to build. Why?

May I borrow your motto, E_E ? seems to be pretty apposite

The reasons we might be here are varied. I'm not here nearly as frequently as I was the first two years I was at MB.

But I don't think I'm typical. Look to the left, there are 55385 registered members. How many do you think are active?

We may be in 1% who are here or return from time to time. Where are the other 55K members?

I think we are 1%'s who stick around, but the other 99% don't for whatever reason. Some recovered, most likely failed and have no reason to return.

So keep that in mind. There may be 500 active folks and I use active loosly and 55K inactive or never to return MB'ers here.

PS, I'm remarried, so while my first marriage failed, it's not correct to say I have no marriage to build.

Feel free. I don't hold any rights to my signature

You know E-E I sometimes think that loud immediate exposure to OMs folks and everyone in our lives and a swaggering "FU" divorce would have been a cleaner wound.

But hindsight is 20/20 vision.I was in no way capable of tolerating that at the time.

Besides my family has enjoyed some quite wonderful times since then.

I do not regret giving it my best shot. And I still have a hope that I may end up with a marriage deserving of the effort.

Stupid think is my wife does really love me. She is just too dysfunctional to show me in ways that mean most to me.

I'm not. At all.

I've spoken with Appy on the phone (where do people get the "ph"?, it's a hard P, or you're saying it wrong). He's a good man. Smart, 2.

I can see what he's talking about here.

People *don't* fundamentally change, they modify their behaviors (exactly what the MB methods teach them 2 do in order 2 be able 2 restore their marriages).

If people really can fundamentally change, recovering alcoholics wouldn't have 2 avoid being around alcohol. But they know they're at risk for falling off the wagon, so they change their behaviors 2 minimize their temptations and protect themselves from their weakness.

My W is no longer a WW, or even a FWW in my view. I still hate labels, "good" and bad ones. Because they impose their own insidious stuckedness on those involved (kind of like coming back here even after recovery does). I do better all the time not dwelling on her past affair. But that doesn't mean I'm unrealistic about the chances of a relapse in the fu2re. I think they're pretty small, but they're not zero percent either. For now, I'm pretty proud of her self-selected behavior modifications that are keeping her from being tempted.

I think that the chances of her having another affair are less than they when she had the first one, because of what she's learned as a result of her experience.

I also think that my own chances of ever having an affair are less than they were before I discovered hers, but they're still not zero. I can remember being tempted in the past (mostly before d-day). And I know now that I've subconsciously taken steps - modified some behaviors - that might have enabled those temptations 2 occur, such that I can't recall the last time. You see, I'm protecting myself from my own inherent weaknesses, however small the chances of acting on them might be.

That's modification of behavior, not changing my personality.

I do know at least one person who changed fundamentally after a massive stroke. He truly was never the same person again, though he wasn't incapacitated by the stroke. He'd written a technical book before the stroke, and it went in2 publication after, and received rave reviews. But he'd changed so much that he didn't want 2 have anything 2 do with it. He couldn't understand it and wasn't interested in the subject, either. He changed careers, from what I heard.

That's real change. Not something anyone should aspire 2, IMO.

-ol' 2long

Appy, I have considered you a friend here on this board. I KNOW you don't like FWW's but you have always been kind to me. I am deeply concerned for you. I am sure you would get support here if you wish to open up.

My girlfriend had a stroke and I've written about it here not long ago, and my own brain injury changed me also.

She is a different person than the one I knew 17 years ago, in some ways for the better and in some ways she lost some of her humanity. She is incapable of being bitter over the abuse she suffered after her stroke at the hands of a frustrated husband who wanted the same person that was there before.


Oh, and I DID see your other reply before either you or someone else deleted it.