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Originally Posted by MrWondering
I thinks someone is getting a bit desperate. This rhetoric doesn't work anymore. Republicans fooled too many independents in 2000 and 2004 with this crap and they now see where it has gotten us. They are willing to risk it for something, anything...different than what we've had.

I do have a suggestion for you. I hear the John Birch Society is looking for new members. They have lots of fun activities and seminars like "Commie Hunting 101", "How to Investigate Yourself (and the follow up course..."What to do if you Find Something"), "Stalin...is he still alive and living in America" and "Red Finger Painting".

ahhh Mr. Wondering. Resorting to ad hominem attacks again, eh?

More typical "liberal-speak," the same sort of "fog-talk" that we get from Wayward Spouses who don't want to actually deal with the REAL issues.

Nice try though.




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BTW your statements about Obama imply that McCain is different...but he's NOT. McCain will HAVE to raise taxes too. You know...it will be an "emergency" like the bank bailout.

Well I'm certainly glad to know you have a crystal ball.

Regardless, John McCain is ON RECORD for no new taxes (unlike Obama who wants MORE taxes to support BOTH his Income Redistribution Welfare Giveaway (i.e. Rob from the rich and the 'upper middle class' to give to the poor according to HIS schedule of who is worthy of his handout)) AND his addition ONE TRILLION DOLLARS in new spending.

John McCain is ON RECORD as opposing the wild spending that has gone on in Congress under BOTH parties. That's also why I am a Conservative first, not a RINO sort of Republican.

Obama is ON RECORD for increasing spending a trillion dollars ABOVE both the current levels AND above the 700 billion dollar "rescue package" that wouldn't have been needed if it were not for the Democrats and liberals in Congress (not to mention Billy Boy Clinton as President).

IF tax increases are NECESSARY and not just to fulfill Obama's "Socialist Wish List," then I'm betting even YOU would support it just as the "rescue bail out" has been supported.



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Considering the premise of this website, all of us here, in particular, would be krazy to trust the words of a known and unrepentent adulterer such as John McCain.

Another baseless lie, and you know it Mr. Wondering. McCain has said that was quite sorry about his divorce from his first wife.

But for you to "read his mind" and "know his heart" is ridiculous. How do we know that your wife, my wife, anyone's WS is "truly repentant?" According to your past postings, it's only if they DIVORCE their current spouse and return to their divorced spouse.

All you are trying very hard to do is to "deflect" any scrutiny of what Obama HAS SAID is his position and NOT a "what if" scenario.



Mr. Wondering:
Quote
p.s. - I don't think Obama is the be all end all. An Obama Presidency will not be nirvana. It will likely take him an entire first term just to fix what Bush and the Republicans have done to our entire governmental organization. I'd have preferred Hillary Clinton for the job. Obama, IMO, is just the better, more Christian choice of the two individual candidates we have been given.

Mr. Wondering, in all due respect and with all sincerity, you really need to think about YOUR support for a man who unabashedly supports and advocates for UNLIMITED abortions. Abortions that have killed MILLIONS of babies on the altar of "convenience." THAT IS NOT a "Christian" position, and I, regardless of what I might think about McCain's status as a Christian, is a "defining difference" between Obama and McCain.

If you can be so cavalier with the Sanctity of Life of Babies, what's "next" on the list of things "not worth taking a stand over?" What's the next group that the government will think of as being "inconvenient" to others? Maybe the whole high cost of healthcare can be "solved" by euthanizing the elderly (who we all know account for the most heavy and costly USE of healthcare)?

NO Christian who believes in God, in what God HAS SAID, could vote for a man who has NO compunction about killing unborn babies and in NOT trying to treat a baby "unfortunate enough" to have SURVIVED an abortion attempt. Obama is FOR all abortions with NO restrictions. He is FOR "partial birth abortion" and FOR all abortions and views getting pregnant out of wedlock as a PUNISHMENT, and he doesn't want his daughters to be "punished" should they become pregnant. It certainly is fortunate for him that HE was not aborted, even though his father never divorced his Kenyan wife before "marrying" Obama's mother.

The rest of the issues, regardless of what "side" you might be on regarding them, PALE in comparison to Obama's support for abortion and infanticide of infants who survive abortion attempts.

In MY book, that makes the "wonderful oratory" of Obama the "nicely disguised words" of a Monster.

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It's not the most important issue...it only is to a tiny group on the far right. It won't decide this election, nor will Roe v. Wade be overturned even if McCain does win.

McCain plans to tax companies' health care benefits. That will result in many businesses dropping coverage altogether.

McCain wants to give me a $5000 tax credit to go out and buy my own insurance.

Guess what, Skeletor? My family plan is quite typical, and it would cost me $12000 a year!!!


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If 7 of the 9 Supreme Court Justices that are charged with "changing their philosophies" were nominated and appointed by Republican Presidents that you voted for than exactly whose hands have more blood on them????

Seriously though, I doubt very much that these Republican appointed Justices really went against their own philosophies so much so that they choose to become abortionists. Rather, I think they recognized that the LAW itself, the right to privacy, the right to liberty, HAS to be protected federally by life appointed members of the judiciary whom are thus insulated from the partisanship and mob-rule mentality that WOULD occur otherwise.

The Right to Privacy protects so much more than the right to reproductive freedom. Without it (as the true strict constructionalist would have it) each state would get to legislate according to it's own majority interests a bevy of matters that both you and I believe untouchable. Take, for instance, the Catholic promoted proposed Constituitional Amendment that you had long ago posted a link to. It not only wanted to outlaw abortion but it wanted to outlaw many common and accepted methods of birth control. Without Supreme Court protection, States would be free to ban the birth control pill and IUD's since such methods commonly act as abortifacients, or abortion causing agents and would be considered abortion by the Catholic proposal. They could ban contraceptives altoghter, even by married couples as Connecticut attempted to do and were deterred by the Supreme Court in 1964's Griswold v. Connecticut. In another state absent the "right to privacy", perhaps, Catholic Schools, or Lutheran Schools or home schooling CAN and WILL be banned by the state legislatures there depending on the whims of the majority (read Pierce v. Society of Sisters). Utah, for example, may pass laws allowing bigamy and attaching amendments calling for the arrest and detention of all homosexuals. States, unfettered by the restrictions of the first amendment of the Constitution which says "CONGRESS, shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech, or the press..." would be free to regulate speech and/or the press...if it so chose to.

You may think that's ridiculous, but these are REAL examples of what CAN occur. My point is...anyone that denies there is a constitutionally protected right to privacy would abdicate judicial responsibility in protecting themselves and all individuals from the threat of STUPID laws enacted by STUPID politicians in any given state at any given time elected by any given majority (Christians beware as we will NOT remain the majority for much longer in vast areas of this country and the removal of the right to privacy can pave the way to Christian persecution as described in the end times).

Finally, how do I allign this with my Christian beliefs? Well, I'd prefer to see LESS abortions (actually NONE but that's an impossible standard for either position). To solve this, I'd like to see the issue put to rest. If it became illegal, besides the fear of state legislatures...I envision vast resources being consumed to prosecute and jail offenders while the pro-choice people will continue to press for it's legality once again. Wealthy Americans will just take their daughters abroad leaving only the poorest American women enduring the chains of the government on their uterus's. I think keeping it legal and somehow ending the debate (with either a solid majority Supreme Court consensus or a Right to Reproductive Freedom Act or Amemdment) such that both sides of the issue stop fighting and can come together and resolve to make such "CHOICE" an expanded choice where women choose to forego abortions and endure their pregnancies would be for the best. Less unwanted pregnancies via more sex education...including abstinance training in both our public and private schools. Every 16 year old and over should KNOW what a condom is, how to use it and where to get them readily. I'd like to see women have real choices such as pregnancy homes for young women where they can get prenatal care, education (about parenting and sex education to avoid reccurence), adoption alternatives, etc. Parents of young adults also need eduction by our churches, schools and community organizations on how best to address these issues with their children. Of course, poverty needs to be addressed and MARRIAGE needs to be promoted in this country as well (less abortion occurs in marriage). Wouldn't it be great to see the vast resources spent fighting about this issue redirected at minimizing this issue. The MONEY is right there. To me...the legality of it is settled and calling me a butcher is the same as calling every American that lives under the Constitution a butcher. If you are not a fan of the Constitution...Delta is ready when you are. It's the document that provides the freedom to choose...not me (nor judges suddenly switching philosophies), so let's find ways TOGETHER to get women to choose responsibl before and after sex. In the end, it is my ardent belief that MORE of God's children will survive and thrive addressing the problem this way (which is the point) AND my/everyone's valued individual rights and privacy remain protected.

Aside...Republicans absent this false agenda, which they are only paying lip-service to anyway to capture the single-issue voters, would HAVE to come up with real agenda's and real leaders whose qualifications expand beyond the simple "I'm pro-life" litmus test to sway voters their way which will likely result in a better government eventually. I know I'd likely switch back to the Republicans.

Mr. Wondering


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If you think Obama is a monster, you are delusional.

McCain is no monster. He's not an evil man.

At least I'm sane enough to admit that.


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Originally Posted by Krazy71
It's not the most important issue...it only is to a tiny group on the far right. It won't decide this election, nor will Roe v. Wade be overturned even if McCain does win.

McCain plans to tax companies' health care benefits. That will result in many businesses dropping coverage altogether.

McCain wants to give me a $5000 tax credit to go out and buy my own insurance.

Guess what, Skeletor? My family plan is quite typical, and it would cost me $12000 a year!!!


Yup...and the biggest reason they want this is because the health insurance cartels want it.

They want people on individual coverage versus company coverage as it's easier to pick off individuals and either deny them coverage when they actually need it or exponentially increase their premiums each year such that if they do get sick, they can longer switch policies without getting "rated" and eventually they won't be able to afford such increases. Either way...insurance companies wash the sick people out of the system (and on to public dole - illusionary Socialism) while they keep collecting their premiums from the otherwise "healthy" policy holders.

Mr. Wondering


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Originally Posted by MrWondering
Originally Posted by Krazy71
It's not the most important issue...it only is to a tiny group on the far right. It won't decide this election, nor will Roe v. Wade be overturned even if McCain does win.

McCain plans to tax companies' health care benefits. That will result in many businesses dropping coverage altogether.

McCain wants to give me a $5000 tax credit to go out and buy my own insurance.

Guess what, Skeletor? My family plan is quite typical, and it would cost me $12000 a year!!!


Yup...and the biggest reason they want this is because the health insurance cartels want it.

They want people on individual coverage versus company coverage as it's easier to pick off individuals and either deny them coverage when they actually need it or exponentially increase their premiums each year such that if they do get sick, they can longer switch policies without getting "rated" and eventually they won't be able to afford such increases. Either way...insurance companies wash the sick people out of the system (and on to public dole - illusionary Socialism) while they keep collecting their premiums from the otherwise "healthy" policy holders.

Mr. Wondering

That's about as anti-American as it gets.


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Imagine this...

Killing is unchristian
Guns kill people.
McCain and the Republicans support the 2nd Amendment without any restrictions.
You support McCain
Therefore...YOU are not a Christian.



The fact that I believe the Constitution protects a womans right to choose does not make me an abortionist, just as your supporting McCain doesn't make you a murderer because he supports the 2nd Amendment without restriction.

Our Christian duty is to teach Christians right from wrong and how to make Christian decisions and choices in service to Him AND to spread His word to unbelievers. We are not called to rid the world of sin. That would be impossible.

Mr Wondering


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What does the Bible say about judging others?


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http://www.prolifeproobama.com/

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"As Ronald Reagan's legal counsel and as a dean and professor at Catholic University and Notre Dame, I have worked to put the law on the side of life where it belongs.

I believe we are all called to build a culture of life - but there's more to it than just hoping that the next Supreme Court justice somehow deals with Roe v. Wade. A bad economy is threatening to human life. Women facing the moral tragedy of abortion - are facing it, now, today - and they need a supportive community and tangible help, not condemnation.

But after 35 years, a new approach is needed. Senator Barack Obama's strengthening of support for prenatal care, health care, maternity leave, and adoption will make help drastically reduce the numbers of abortions. Studies confirm it..."

Read the Full Welcome Letter from Douglas Kmiec

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What does the Bible say about judging others?

From a Christian perspective (which is where I am coming from) my understanding is that we are NOT to judge non-believers because it serves no purpose. However, we ARE to judge other believers but there is a protocol to follow for even that.

Why do you ask?


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Thank you FH for what I consider a most courageous post. You can not take that position without being attacked horrifically.

I had a most amazing experience Sunday as I sat in church. I was completely overwhelmed(to the point of tears)that no one sees that abortion is really a Civil War. We daily allow the destruction of our brother and sisters. The only problem is that they are defenseless and can not fight back. We have allowed the murder of tens of MILLIONS of our countrymen over the past 36 years. It is truly a HOLOCAUST. More dead in THIS holocaust than in any war in history.

I have known many women who have had abortions. Just yesterday I found out about another one(now in her 50's) who had an abortion in high school. The pain and anguish that these women experience after the abortion is almost unbearable. Almost to a one, they regret the abortion quickly, understand what they have done, and realize that NOW they can do nothing about it. Afterwards, when the fog of fear and uncertainty has lifted they see that they had MANY options but they allowed their fear to drive them.

And the abortion industry PLAYS on that fear. It is an industry. It makes money and those who make their living at it want it to stay that way. I no more believe that those in the abortion industry are interested in merely "helping" women than I believe that "politicians" merely want to improve society.

The worst case for me personally was a daycare mother of mine who had 2 abortions within 18 months. I begged her to allow me to take her baby(s). I told her that I would adopt the baby if she wanted and accept all responsibility, no matter the outcome. Or, if she preferred, I would foster the baby(s)until she felt she was ready to be a mother again. I gave her as many other alternatives as I could think of. She was interested in none of it. She wanted "rid of the problem"(her words, not mine).

Thank you again FH.

Blessings,
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Originally Posted by MrWondering
Imagine this...

Killing is unchristian
Guns kill people.
McCain and the Republicans support the 2nd Amendment without any restrictions.
You support McCain
Therefore...YOU are not a Christian.



The fact that I believe the Constitution protects a womans right to choose does not make me an abortionist, just as your supporting McCain doesn't make you a murderer because he supports the 2nd Amendment without restriction.

Our Christian duty is to teach Christians right from wrong and how to make Christian decisions and choices in service to Him AND to spread His word to unbelievers. We are not called to rid the world of sin. That would be impossible.

Mr Wondering

Mr Wondering - are you certain you want to get into a "courtroom debate" with this sort of reasoning?

"Killing is unchristian
Guns kill people.
McCain and the Republicans support the 2nd Amendment without any restrictions.
You support McCain
Therefore...YOU are not a Christian.


So let's "examine" your position by exchanging some words:

Killing is "unhuman" (or "inhuman" if you will, but I wonder how your attempt to misuse killing (instead of murder) would sit with defending your life or defending your country in war, according to your "reasoning?)
Guns kill people.
McCain and the Republicans support the 2nd Amendment without any restrictions.
You support McCain
Therefore...YOU are not a Human.

By the way, Mr. Wondering. Since WHEN has a "gun" ever been prosecuted for killing someone? I was always under the impression that it was the PERSON wielding the gun, knife, axe, garrott, poison, pick your TOOL or method of inflicting death upon someone.

This sort of nonsensical, hysterical, reasoning to justify the killing of innocent babies is unbelievable, especially from a Christian.

So let's get this straight then. You are of the philosophy that "I may personally be against something, but it's everyone's right to choose to do whatever they want to do simply because that's what THEY want to do, right?

And I suppose that when Jesus did NOT stone the woman, as the LAW in effect at the time DEMANDED as the "correct" punishment, ostensibly "voted on" or "Supreme Court Opined about," he was CONDONING adultery?

Mr. Wondering, it would appear that you have some real challenges in "logical thinking," to say nothing about reconciling that sort of belief with what God HAS said.

But just to "Humor" you a little further, I assume you are also, by way of your stated reasoning, also NOT in favor of proscuting someone for killing a baby in the womb when he/she kills the mother?

And you know what, there ARE some States who agree with that. My own State of North Carolina is one. Although with the recent killings of pregnant ladies perhaps enough people will get outraged enough to finally "force" the legislators to make the killing of the baby ALSO a murder charge. We'll see, but I guess it will depend on how many "liberal thinkers" there are in the State Congress.


Quote
Our Christian duty is to teach Christians right from wrong and how to make Christian decisions and choices in service to Him AND to spread His word to unbelievers. We are not called to rid the world of sin. That would be impossible.

Mr. W, we (Christians) ARE called to tell the world about Jesus and God's provision for salvation. We are also called to be "Salt and Light" in this fallen world by STANDING for what God has said is Truth and Light. We are NOT to "lose our saltiness" by becoming "just like the world." We are NOT to "hide our light under a bushel" and NOT shine the light of truth on a fallen, self-centered world that is following after the lies of Satan and self-indulgence.

So how would YOU teach your children, or other children for that matter, HOW to discern "right from wrong" if your STANDARDS of right and wrong are "relative" to whatever you or anyone wants them to be?




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Originally Posted by ForeverHers
So let's "examine" your position by exchanging some words:

Killing is "unhuman" (or "inhuman" if you will, but I wonder how your attempt to misuse killing (instead of murder) would sit with defending your life or defending your country in war, according to your "reasoning?)
Guns kill people.
McCain and the Republicans support the 2nd Amendment without any restrictions.
You support McCain
Therefore...YOU are not a Human.

You have a bad habit of warping someone's statement, or altering it entirely, then using your own faulty logic to "run with it".

Your entire argument is invalid, because you've started with a statement by the "other side" that was never uttered.

Your "killing is inhuman" example is an extremely poor argument. It is ridiculous and nonsensical.


You said "Let's examine your position by exchanging some words".

The moment you start "exchanging some words", you've already failed to make a valid point. Why don't you try "examining the position" using the words that were actually typed?

When it comes to "faulty logic", you are the king.


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Originally Posted by Krazy71
If you think Obama is a monster, you are delusional.

What do you call a man who supports infanticide of infants who survive abortion attempts?

Folks rave about how cool and unruffled he is.

I say he's got to be much more than that in order to support the legislation he has.

Monster works for me.





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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Originally Posted by Krazy71
If you think Obama is a monster, you are delusional.

What do you call a man who supports infanticide of infants who survive abortion attempts?

Folks rave about how cool and unruffled he is.

I say he's got to be much more than that in order to support the legislation he has.

Monster works for me.

I dont know the exact bill in Illinois that he voted against but understand that the argument used was this specific bill would erode the women's right and free access to abortion.

I guess the point I dont understand is in the same hospital one could have a premature birth and the staff are feverishly trying to save the child and the same time (perhaps in another room) a child who is further along in development is being eliminated and even if the baby gets past the womb still alive and breathing will meet his/her end at the end of a medical doctor's scalpel. Very chilling visual for me. No different than what the young mother did to her 2-3 yo child in Florida.

I think Medical establishment's silence on the issue is very disturbing.

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Originally Posted by Krazy71
It's not the most important issue...it only is to a tiny group on the far right. It won't decide this election, nor will Roe v. Wade be overturned even if McCain does win.

McCain plans to tax companies' health care benefits. That will result in many businesses dropping coverage altogether.

McCain wants to give me a $5000 tax credit to go out and buy my own insurance.

Guess what, Skeletor? My family plan is quite typical, and it would cost me $12000 a year!!!
Originally Posted by MrWondering
That's about as anti-American as it gets.

Krazy, you are certainly free to pick whatever you want as YOUR "most important" issue. I happen to think that LIFE is the most important, not that other issues are not "important," but nothing is more important that life….just as the Founders said.

And if Mr. Wondering wants to think that your "example" regarding the healthcare issue is "as anti-American as it gets," he too is certainly free to think that way.

But Krazy, I work in the Health Insurance field. In fact I working with a client today to get health insurance for his wife because she is younger than him and he is going on Medicare. The "flaw" that you seem to be arguing for is that "healthcare is a right and I shouldn't have to pay for, someone else needs to be paying for my insurance."

Okay, there ARE people who have health conditions that prevent them from getting individually, medically underwritten, health insurance BECAUSE the risk of high medical expenses exists within their given health issue and would cause either the insurer to STOP offering plans or to RAISE the premium rates….because there IS NO FREE LUNCH. Somebody, somewhere, is paying an "unfair share" in order to insure the "unhealthy people." Now some people get "unhealthy" through circumstances NOT of their own making. Other people DO get "unhealthy" by their choices in life. Regardless, the FACT is that healthcare IS expensive.

But just to give you an example of how the Government will "address" this issue and make sure that the people who can't qualify for regular health insurance because of their "unhealthy condition," let me share with you the Premium RATE Structure for GUARANTEED COVERAGE. ONLY those people who ARE "unhealthy" can get this insurance. The "healthy folks" have to stay with their employer or individual plans.

I am only including the rates up to age 64, even though the plan does give rates for up to age 99, because MOST people WILL go on Medicare when they turn 65.


Non-Smoker
AGE Plan A -- $1,000 Plan B -- $2,500 Plan C – $5,000 HDHP
.......Male..Female...Male...Female...Male...Female
0-1--- $432-- $433--- $326--- $327--- $217-- $218--
2-12--$228-- $228--- $172--- $173--- $115--- $115--
13-17-$254-- $252--- $192--- $191--- $128--- $127
18-----$270-- $271--- $196--- $245--- $136--- $135
19-----$271-- $286--- $198--- $257--- $136--- $154
20-----$276-- $299--- $204--- $268--- $137--- $168
21-----$277-- $313--- $208--- $280--- $140--- $184
22-----$278-- $366--- $209--- $321--- $141--- $195
23-----$281-- $372--- $211--- $325--- $143--- $202
24-----$283-- $377--- $213--- $329--- $145--- $208
25-----$286-- $384--- $216--- $339--- $147--- $214
26-----$289-- $391--- $218--- $344--- $150--- $220
27-----$292-- $399--- $220--- $350--- $152--- $225
28-----$296-- $424--- $223--- $369--- $155--- $230
29-----$304-- $438--- $230--- $379--- $159--- $235
30-----$311-- $457--- $235--- $384--- $162--- $241
31-----$320-- $465--- $241--- $390--- $167--- $246
32-----$329-- $476--- $247--- $399--- $172--- $252
33-----$337-- $485--- $253--- $405--- $177--- $258
34-----$347-- $493--- $260--- $411--- $183--- $264
35-----$358-- $502--- $268--- $399--- $188--- $270
36-----$369-- $511---- $275--- $406--- $194--- $276
37-----$381-- $525--- $283--- $417--- $201--- $282
38-----$394-- $540--- $294--- $428--- $210--- $291
39-----$408-- $553--- $306--- $438--- $220--- $300
40-----$425-- $566--- $318--- $434--- $230--- $308
41-----$439-- $579--- $330--- $444--- $239--- $317
42-----$454-- $600--- $343--- $459--- $240--- $326
43-----$475-- $618--- $356--- $473--- $253--- $335
44-----$496-- $636--- $371--- $487--- $265--- $344
45-----$523-- $653--- $385--- $497--- $280--- $356
46-----$548-- $672--- $399--- $511--- $295--- $368
47-----$574-- $681--- $417--- $518--- $310--- $381
48-----$606-- $704--- $440--- $535--- $327--- $393
49-----$637-- $725--- $464--- $550--- $344--- $405
50-----$676-- $755--- $492--- $569--- $361--- $417
51-----$716-- $786---- $520--- $589--- $378--- $426
52-----$757-- $793--- $549--- $592--- $396--- $436
53-----$800-- $830--- $580--- $620--- $416--- $448
54-----$845-- $866--- $612--- $648--- $437--- $460
55-----$886-- $902--- $641--- $673--- $456--- $473
56-----$924-- $931--- $669--- $697--- $476--- $486
57-----$967-- $949--- $700--- $710--- $499--- $501
58-----$1,022 $992--- $740--- $743--- $528--- $517
59-----$1,078 $1,036- $781--- $777--- $559--- $534
60-----$1,139 $1,084- $826--- $811--- $589--- $550
61-----$1,198 $1,129- $869--- $837--- $621--- $568
62-----$1,258 $1,119- $912--- $846--- $654--- $586
63-----$1,297 $1,171- $940--- $878--- $691--- $615
64-----$1,340 $1,225- $970--- $918--- $731--- $645

Smoker
AGE Plan A -- $1,000 Plan B -- $2,500 Plan C – $5,000 HDHP
Male Female Male Female Male Female
0-1 $570 $572 $431 $432 $287 $288
2-12 $301 $302 $227 $228 $151 $152
13-17 $335 $333 $253 $252 $169 $168
18 $357 $358 $259 $323 $179 $178
19 $357 $378 $262 $339 $180 $203
20 $364 $395 $270 $354 $181 $221
21 $365 $413 $274 $369 $185 $243
22 $367 $484 $276 $424 $186 $258
23 $370 $490 $279 $429 $189 $266
24 $374 $497 $282 $435 $192 $274
25 $378 $507 $285 $447 $194 $282
26 $382 $516 $288 $454 $197 $290
27 $385 $526 $291 $462 $201 $297
28 $390 $560 $295 $487 $204 $304
29 $401 $579 $303 $500 $210 $311
30 $411 $603 $311 $507 $214 $318
31 $422 $614 $318 $515 $220 $325
32 $434 $628 $326 $526 $227 $332
33 $445 $640 $334 $535 $234 $340
34 $458 $651 $343 $543 $241 $348
35 $473 $662 $353 $527 $248 $356
36 $488 $674 $363 $536 $256 $364
37 $503 $693 $374 $550 $265 $372
38 $520 $713 $388 $565 $278 $384
39 $539 $730 $404 $578 $291 $395
40 $561 $747 $420 $573 $303 $407
41 $580 $764 $436 $586 $316 $419
42 $599 $792 $453 $607 $317 $431
43 $627 $816 $471 $625 $333 $443
44 $655 $839 $489 $642 $350 $454
45 $690 $862 $508 $656 $370 $470
46 $724 $888 $527 $675 $389 $486
47 $758 $899 $551 $684 $409 $503
48 $800 $929 $581 $706 $431 $519
49 $841 $957 $612 $727 $454 $535
50 $893 $997 $649 $751 $476 $551
51 $945 $1,037 $686 $778 $498 $563
52 $999 $1,047 $725 $781 $522 $575
53 $1,057 $1,095 $766 $818 $549 $591
54 $1,115 $1,144 $808 $856 $576 $607
55 $1,169 $1,191 $847 $888 $602 $624
56 $1,219 $1,229 $883 $920 $628 $641
57 $1,277 $1,252 $924 $937 $659 $661
58 $1,349 $1,309 $977 $981 $697 $683
59 $1,424 $1,367 $1,031 $1,026 $737 $705
60 $1,504 $1,430 $1,090 $1,070 $778 $727
61 $1,582 $1,491 $1,147 $1,116 $820 $750
62 $1,661 $1,477 $1,204 $1,105 $863 $773
63 $1,713 $1,546 $1,241 $1,158 $913 $812
64 $1,768 $1,617 $1,281 $1,212 $964 $851


Now these rates are PER PERSON PER MONTH. (Sorry, I didn't want to take the time to space out the Smoker rates so they would be easier to read on the UBB format.)

Obviously, just as I do every day, it would make "sense" to have healthy family members on their own "lower cost" individual health plan and to only have the "unhealthy" person on such a "guaranteed coverage" plan such as this.

Regardless of your opinion, however, I want you to SEE that this IS a Government run, Government sanctioned plan and that the RATES are not "cheap." Even the government recognizes that the plan will not work if it is NOT funded, and they WILL make you pay for it. And if not YOU, as Obama would like, then EVERYONE WILL PAY. Do you REALLY believe that you won't pay REALLY HIGH "premiums," errrr, Taxes, in order to support Nationalized Healthcare?


Now, if reality makes me "Skeletor," then I'm sorry. I live in the "real world" of healthcare every day and have since 1970. I know the costs and I know the bills.

But let me ask you this question, since when has Healthcare become a RIGHT? What Doctor MUST treat you?

The provision for treatment in the event of an Emergency already exists, and the ability to PAY for the treatment cannot be considered.

Now you want to "extend" that to ALL healthcare issues?

At what cost and who will pay for it?

And PLEASE do not resort to saying that the Government will DICTATE, as they do with Medicare, how much they will pay a PROVIDER of healthcare services. Doctors and Hospitals WILL leave because they cannot exist today on just what the Goverment "allows." If THAT occurs, good luck on getting ANY treatment for anything even if you had the deepest money pockets in the world. "Not available" in healthcare DOES MEAN "not available at any cost."

Check out Canada and Great Britain if you doubt it. WAITING and AVAILABILITY are "facts of life" there for anything other than an outright emergency.


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On a related note, I found this LA Times column interesting, The End of the Catholic Vote

Some snippets:

Quote
Karl Rove, Bush's strategic eminence grise, thought he'd found a way to pry Catholics, as ostensible social conservatives, out of the Democratic embrace and into a new conservative coalition using so-called wedge issues -- such as abortion, same-sex marriage and aid to parochial schools and social service agencies.

That approach isn't working for John McCain . . .

Quote
[N]nearly one-third of all Pennsylvanians are Catholics, and in recent weeks, McCain's candidacy has received a major boost from their clerical leaders. Last week, Cardinal Justin Rigali of Philadelphia wrote in his archdiocesan newspaper: "The transcending issue of our day is the intentional destruction of innocent human life, as in abortion ... [and] no intrinsic evil can ever be supported in any way."

Yet Barack Obama continues to lead McCain by double figures in every reliable Pennsylvania poll. In fact, according to a recent New York Times/CBS poll, Obama holds a commanding 59% to 31% edge over McCain among Catholics nationwide. What's significant about that is that at least 50 of the country's 197 Catholic bishops recently have published articles or given interviews in which they argued that abortion, more than any other issue, ought to determine how members of their flock cast their votes.

Quote
Nearly one-third of all American Catholics now are Latinos, as are more than 50% of all Catholics under 40. They have broken overwhelmingly for Obama because of his stands on the economy and immigration.

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Originally Posted by rwinger
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Originally Posted by Krazy71
If you think Obama is a monster, you are delusional.

What do you call a man who supports infanticide of infants who survive abortion attempts?

Folks rave about how cool and unruffled he is.

I say he's got to be much more than that in order to support the legislation he has.

Monster works for me.

I dont know the exact bill in Illinois that he voted against but understand that the argument used was this specific bill would erode the women's right and free access to abortion.

I guess the point I dont understand is in the same hospital one could have a premature birth and the staff are feverishly trying to save the child and the same time (perhaps in another room) a child who is further along in development is being eliminated and even if the baby gets past the womb still alive and breathing will meet his/her end at the end of a medical doctor's scalpel. Very chilling visual for me. No different than what the young mother did to her 2-3 yo child in Florida.

I think Medical establishment's silence on the issue is very disturbing.

Well, you need to get past the right wing talking points being spouted above, and look at the facts, which as always are sadly in short supply in the post above. Then it'll all make sense.

Obama voted against this bill because he backed a federal bill with an identical protection, but without restricting general access to abortion.

In addition, there are already protections in place for a viable fetus:

Quote
It is worth noting that Illinois law already provided that physicians must protect the life of a fetus when there is "a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support.

So no need to worry about "infanticide", that does not happen.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html

AGG


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Originally Posted by Krazy71
Originally Posted by ForeverHers
So let's "examine" your position by exchanging some words:

Killing is "unhuman" (or "inhuman" if you will, but I wonder how your attempt to misuse killing (instead of murder) would sit with defending your life or defending your country in war, according to your "reasoning?)
Guns kill people.
McCain and the Republicans support the 2nd Amendment without any restrictions.
You support McCain
Therefore...YOU are not a Human.

You have a bad habit of warping someone's statement, or altering it entirely, then using your own faulty logic to "run with it".

Your entire argument is invalid, because you've started with a statement by the "other side" that was never uttered.

Your "killing is inhuman" example is an extremely poor argument. It is ridiculous and nonsensical.


You said "Let's examine your position by exchanging some words".

The moment you start "exchanging some words", you've already failed to make a valid point. Why don't you try "examining the position" using the words that were actually typed?

When it comes to "faulty logic", you are the king.

Sorry, Krazy, but when someone posits an argument that is "always," as Mr. Wondering did with his example, it SHOULD hold true for similar circumstances or else the underlying ASSUMPTIONS used in the original example were false.

So if it makes you feel any better, feel free to substitute "unAmerican" for "unChristian".

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Quote
McCain plans to tax companies' health care benefits. That will result in many businesses dropping coverage altogether.

McCain wants to give me a $5000 tax credit to go out and buy my own insurance.

Guess what, Skeletor? My family plan is quite typical, and it would cost me $12000 a year!!!

I do not believe that your healthcare costs are 'typical' of most americans. My healthcare cost, for a family plan, an HMO healthcare policy, is $2916 a YEAR. This is coverage through my employer.

I think that you are holding McCains feet to the fire for his $5000 tax credit because you pay so much more. But what does the average american pay for help insurance?

My DH works for a global HVAC company and I work for a national company and our costs are about a third of yours.

Sounds like you either work for a really small company or have an individual policy.









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