Pariah:

Thanks for confirming that my post was there. I'm not quite sure why it was deleted, but I do intend 2 ask!

-ol' 2long

What is the definition of modification?
1. the act or result of modifying or the condition of being modified
2. an alteration or adjustment to something
3. a change to an organism as a result of its environment that is not transmissable to offspring

I believe we all change throughtout various phases of life. Puberty being one, getting married being one, and the most drastic is probably having children. However, some people have more will power to enact change than others. Alcoholics have less will power. Personalities do change. When i was in college, I liked going to the bar regularly. I like hitting on women and flirting. When I got married and had children, I do not enjoy going to the bar and flirting with women. I would much rather stay home and spend that time with my children.

What we are addressing here is that a Wayward needs to enact change, or behavior modification with the reason being that they do not have the will power to avoid an affair. JMO

I agree, we grow up physically and mentally through our lives.

But regarding relationships - at least our ability 2 have healthy ones - we change our behaviors, not ourselves.

Given the different perspectives, I agree with your points.

-ol' 2long

It was something you shouldn't be so proud of.

I remember what I said.

Proud? Of 2 words?

It was an honest statement of how I feel, that's all.

Now nobody will ever know what I'm feeling, they can only make assumptions.

-ol' 2long

You could tell us again.

If I could, I wouldn't need 2.

-ol' 2long

Thank you for your opinion.

Actually I think I said as much to Aphelion. Most marriages don't recover. But they DO if they follow MB.


If you think that's what he said, I suggest you get some comprehension lessons.

He says CLEARLY there is no such thing as a FWS.


OK I don't necessarily disagree with this. I find it more credible than advertisments however. If people will faithfully follow the program, full recovery is possible. The problem is that people cut and paste and half do it and then wonder why they don't get the desired result.


I don't think it's rare at all. You're on a MB site where many people DO follw the program properly and get the result. Again, Aph says it's a mirage.


That is the point. People don't do the program fully and then complain it doesn't work. Dr Harley HIMSELF says success is 100% guaranteed if people follow the program.


Yes he does but he also says it is because, for one reason or another, people do not follow the program.

Well as an athiest 2long, I would expect you to hold that opinion. But Aphelion professes to be a Christian.


Well either that or because they have fundamentally changed, they know their weaknesses and protect themselves from them.


I agree!! Wow. A miracle!


Well your personality didn't need changing did it?

Imagine that...the creator of the program, touting its 100% success rate.

No program, dealing with any issue, anywhere, has a true 100% success rate.

That's just common sense.

Well Krazy, why don't you and your wife register for a Marriage Builders Weekend OR order the Home Study Course? Do all the lessons, stick to the program and see what you get in the end...it's guaranteed to restore your marriage by Dr. Harley...in the same way it's guaranteed that you will lose weight if you reduce your food intake and exercise...

What if it does work Krazy? Those of us that have done the work certainly back up Dr. Harley's guarantee...What have you got to lose? Doing this would be the best thing for you, your wife and children...Seems like a no brainer to me...Whaddaya say?

Here's the link~~~> The MB Programs

Mrs. W

I agree that it's a tremendous program. I don't doubt that for one second.

The body is relatively easy to fix.

The mind is another matter entirely.

I don't doubt that any marriage could benefit from using the MB principals, but to claim that 100% of marriages affected by infidelity will be fully recovered is...well...BS.

I'd still like to see you try it and see Krazy...I'd love for your marriage to be completely restored, and I think it's worth a shot based upon our experience...I hope you'll consider it...

Mrs. W

Have to agree with the Mrs. on this one Krazy. No hurt in trying it. But I also have to agree with you that no program is 100% effective. That is BS!

I understand what you are saying here. Even the comment about coming back after recovery (why am I still here? My M is completely over). However, the truth remains, I am now and forever more a BS. Even though I am no longer even an "S". I carry the scars for the rest of my life, like a scarlet brand on my forehead. These scars will affect me in my future life whether I remain single or marry again. It's a cancer that might go into remission, but it will never be cured.

Similarly, the FWS is also scarred, whether their M recovers or is destroyed. Their scars are different but no less real.

I don't think it's a mirage. But I do think it's a rare outcome. Look at how many don't have the outcome Dr H says is possible.

The thing that is frustrating for me is Dr H always has an out. Even if you follow MB perfectly, he can always say your spouse never got on board, so you, as a couple failed to follow the program and he can stand on the 100% success rate.

Combine that with the notion that success is NOT defined as a restored marriage, but either a restored marriage, OR your love bank will be so depleted that you are willing to divorce, and almost any outcome support the 100% success rate figure he quotes.

Don't get me wrong, I believe MB is the best program out there. But the 100% success rate is one of those meaningless stats we experience in advertising everyday.

Customers and clients are the ones who should define success, not Dr H.

As long as Dr H gets to define success, he can ensure he has a 100% success rate.


Like I said, Dr H cannot entice every WS to enter the program. This is a failure or limitation of the program. I'd like to define success or failure to include enticing the WS to enticing the WS to enter or even consider the program.

If the BS is implementing the program, but the WS refuses to go along, Dr H excuses this as not following the program. That is not very helpful to the betrayed spouse.

I think what would make Dr H's figures more credible with me would be if he offered some sort of guarantee that the wayward would enter the program.

I personally think there are too many outs for Dr H so he can say the program is 100% successful.

It's like saying abstinence is 100% successful when folks follow the program.

That's true. But then most folks don't follow it.

Just like most waywards don't respond to the changes being made by the betrayed spouse.

If most waywards don't respond, how can Dr H say the program is 100% successful? I don't think he can credibly say that.

It's a weakness of the program, and that weakness is being blamed on folks not implementing the program. I'm sorry, that looks like a blame-shift to me.

The problem is, and I faced the same thing. I can register for the program, but who is going to ensure the wayward spouse attends?

Again, this is a limitation of the program. I think just getting a wayward to attend would be great, because I think the program is compelling.

The problem is no one has found an effective way of addressing this weakness, of how to encourage the wayward spouse to attend such a conference.

Until this is addressed, laying the blame on folks for failure because they didn't follow the Dr's program is disingenuous.

If the program is unable to attract the wayward spouse, then why shift all the blame for failure to the couple. Isn't that a weakness a failing of the program?

I was willing to attend. I simply wanted some means of convincing my ex-wife to attend. Steve Harley had no way of bringing her to the phone, let alone to a Marriage Builders weekend.

So who failed, me or the program?

I say both failed. I failed to win her back, and the program was not compelling enough to a wayward spouse to cause doubt in her affair.

That's what Steve Harley says the MB plan is about, to create doubt in the mind of the wayward spouse. That how she perceives her betrayed husband, her OM as well as the viability of building a good marriage is what brings her to the table.

So one cannot blame any failures on one person. There are many involved in recovery and part of that is for the MB coaches to have an effective means of creating doubt in the mind of the wayward that the marriage is irreconcilable.

Frankly, Steve Harley failed in his task to convince my XW that the marriage was viable.

Therefore, there ARE failures in the MB program. Sometimes those failures are partially owned by the program and it's staff.

I don't totally blame them. But the fact is the MB program and Steve Harley failed to entice my XW into even considering the program.

So I strongly disagree with the idea that the program works 100% of the time it's tried. I tried it, I even paid Steve for coaching and sought his coaching to entice her into a plan of Marriage Building. He was unable to entice her into any dialog.

Is that my failure?

No!

Again, I still believe it's the best program out there. But 100% successful? No.

From the programs link above:


So if you don't have your spouses approval, you cannot order the program. If you cannot order the program, how valuable is Dr H's guarantee?

Like I said, the 100% figure is worthless and the guarantee is also worthless.

Not that it's a bad program. But the reality is this guarantee has nothing to do with a marriage rocked by infidelity. If the WS is off following her affair, based on what Dr H. says, the BS cannot even order this program unless the WS also enthusiastically supports doing so, thus making any guarantees worthless.

But when abetinence is followed 100% it has 100% success! You can't argue against that.

None of the arguements "against" the claim of 100% work because it all comes back to what EE has said; "But then most folks don't follow it".
It's not Dr. Harley's fault when people don't follow his program.
Dr. Harley can make the claim 100% because he has never seen it fail when both spouses are on board and his program is adhered to.