I wondered if there was a language barrier or cultural difference. That's why I asked several times about that.

For example, one time I was complaining about how my H often doesn't respond when I say something, even a direct question, so I'm not sure whether or not he heard me. DS6a's teacher remarked 6a was doing the same thing and that it was disrespectful.

Ears said the way the teacher mentioned it was actually a DJ. She gave the example of when she taught in a multicultural classroom, there were some students, I believe from asian cultures, who had been taught that the respectful thing to do when addressed by a person in authority is to look downward and NOT speak back. Or something like that, you get the picture I hope even if I've got cultural details incorrect.

I am turned off by some of the ways SH phrases things. That doesn't mean he's wrong and I'm right, right? I see exactly what Kayla is talking about and that could be on target, but without knowing the language and culture it's difficult to say for sure. JMHO.

I don't think Dr. Harley is for giving to get...if you meet my EN for admiration, I'll love you.

I do believe Dr. Harley is all for negotiating meeting ENs. Not for the giving to get idea...it's intimacy to negotiate; read his POJA again...see where you strive to first understand, then be understood...where you share what sparks you, dissuades, disappoints.

I don't read in SenH's posts about intimacy...where he shares with his wife about what he assumes is her jealousy and actually takes action based on his DJ (stops being affectionate with his daughter as much/if any in front of his wife), essentially harms intimacy.

So does asking for admiration, IMO. I don't mean doing the ENQ and showing it to be your #1; I mean telling someone what you want, when you want it and in the way you want it. Sets you up for controlling someone else's act of love, immediately diminishes it, and isn't about admiration at all, really, is it? Focuses on lack, sets negative perception and a likelihood of daily disappointed (which may be the payoff here).

On the flip side, it means you can only feel love from this action, when you want to feel love and in the way you want to feel it. Cuts out a lot of reality and sets up a false intimacy, which is unfulfilling, to say the least, and doesn't deliver on what seems like a great way to feel loved...by feeling safe. Perpetuates the routine of fear, instead of practicing love.

Assumptions block intimacy...and they are separate from intuition. Sharing what he sees, experiences, perceives...that's intimacy. Not reacting to his own assumption...that is what blocks intimacy. Which is part of PORH...another commitment to intimacy.

If you saw, SenH, each time you didn't share your impressions with your wife as lying, would you continue to do so? Would you assume some inability or inconvenience on her part? Or would you know, in her own words, what she goes through, her reactions to your request for admiration when you want it and in the way you want it?

Back to another unanswered question...do you give yourself admiration? Praise? Job-well-done kudos? And do you do so without comparison to other humans, human groups or categories?

LA

I have a calendar that I put a star and something that I accomplished. I have friends with whom I discuss little accomplishments, that would ordinarily not be of interest to my wife.

My wife is not naturally attuned to giving me Admiration. Admiration must be given, but that does not mean that Admiration cannot be asked for, or negotiated.

Basically, I feel that I am a Giver and my wife is a Taker, in the ordinary interchage in our marriage. This is Basic No. 7.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html


So I am willing to continue giving, much of the time, but I am intrerested in receiving also. For me, Admiration is something I would appreciate, and is fairly easy for my wife, if she is reminded. My wife is usally willing to take a moment away from her Taker perspective, and change to the perspective of Gratitude and Reward.

My wife may not be naturally attuned to the Gratitude and Reward perspective, for any number of reasons. My wife has suportive friends and family, outside our marriage. My wife more enjoys teasing me, than giving Admiration. An oppositonal streak runs in both of us, and we express Love in antagonizing each other, as a usual mode of interaction.

Asking for Admiration is also a peaacemaker function, to change the perspective to appreciating each other.

NPD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, is something that is a matter of degree, in more individuals than just the classic cases. My wife may be more self-centered than average, and my reminders or requests for Admiration are met with a response of Awakening, like "I had not thought to appreciate your extra effort on XYZ. Thanks for that."

My wife does not really reject my requests for Admiration, or put up an argument about it. I am just trying to be more effective in Asking for Admiration.

..

So...you aren't actually complaining that she isn't giving you the admiration you need. You acknowledge that she isn't naturally going to do that, and you're just looking for more effective ways to ask for it?

Are you specifically looking for notoriety for the particular deed? Or would a reward, of sorts, like your favorite dessert suffice?

You're looking for actual verbal acknowledgment then? Just looking for clarification.

I have never in my life heard of an adult using a star chart for themselves. Does no one else find this really really odd? Like a big red flag of some deeper issue? Like serious NPD?

Cat, on FlyLady.net, there are testimonials from folks who put stars on a calendar to motivate them. Her claendar even comes with a sticker that say, "I'm so proud of you!" I got her dishtowel set, and one of those also has embroidered "I'm so proud of you" and it gives me a smile when I look at it. I've tried stickers on the calendar myself, when I was depressed and it was really hard for me to get myself motivated to exercise again. I didn't find it odd, reading that. I was thinking, good for SenH that he's finding tools that work for him!

Really? I guess I can see it if you're doing it for yourself. Maybe it's just that I know he is doing it to get something from his wife.

Cat, initially when I read it I remembered when I was 12 and got stars from my music teacher for doing my guitar lesson, but after I thought about it I thought...I can remember that when needing admiration, it's a good idea to list your accomplishments versus listing the things you haven't done and need to do. I must have read it somewhere. So, I thought, though this may seem a bit child like to some, it's kind of in the same arena.

This doesn't mean I don't think he has some characteristics of NPD. I read the article provided and on the surface he does seem to have several of the characteristics...

And to Senator - a lot of us do have some sort of personality disorder stemming from some area of dysfunction in our childhoods. I think when it interrupts daily living and makes it hard to function on a normal level...when it gets in the way of a happy relationship, it's probably time to go and talk to a professional about it.

Just my .02.

It could be that maybe Senator is not speaking his wife's language. Admiration seems like such a formal word. "Honey, can I have some admiration for taking out the garbage?" I'm thinking if you can put a little humorous twist on it and say "How about a little positive reinforcement, baby?" Might make a difference. It doesn't have to be called 'Admiration.'

Cat, I hear you. It's hard to feel positive about someone who doesn't respond to questions they feel are not relevant to them. When I see that, I feel distrusting, like I don't have a complete picture.

Thank you for your response, SenH.

Which would give the most love deposits to your bank...your wife sharing with you her thoughts of you as she has them, in her own way, with her own words...

or...

her using your words when you want to hear them, in the tone you want to hear them in?

Are you saying you do praise, appreciate yourself by using the star system so you can see your accomplishments, or others?

Would you say you're in the habit of discounting your accomplishments, including behavior changes, acts of love?


Didn't your wife, when you first courting, meet your EN for admiration really well? Was she then being unnatural? Or was she crazy in love with you?

Sharing our stuff (our admiring thoughts and feelings) is easy in the first stage of marriage--we think we're safe because of the other person (being most wonderful), so we meet many ENs often without awareness...and in the second stage of marriage, we learn to fear, not share, overlook, discount (well, not learn it, do it), dismiss...so meeting ENs drops way off except in the most obvious ways. Going from self-image to real selves is one tough gig.

Only way to the third stage, though.

If you choose to believe what isn't natural for someone, isn't their inclination (she may be actively punishing you for NOT admiring her when she wants you to, in the way she wants you to)...and to be one or the other...

you know we're both. We choose whether we act from one or the other. And acting from the Giver can be as dangerous to a marriage as acting from your Taker.

I heard in your recount that your wife isn't getting her EN for admiration (appreciation, recognition, attention) met. These are the elements of cherishing, btw...admiration is in there. Not as a false act of love, though--as a way to intimately share thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions---our stuff with our spouse. Sincere, authentic, and very vulnerable.

Admiration is not a peacemaker function at all in my book. It's radical honesty; you don't control it, no matter what you do. It's part of who others are, about them, sharing what they see in you--and btw, what they admire in you they have in themselves. Speak to your wife's ENs and yours will be filled. That's really how it works.

And what ticks us off in others, we have in ourselves, as well.

You sound like neither of you are experiencing an intimate marriage. And that you are getting your EN for Admiration met, you just want magic words to manipulate more from her, when you want it?

Why not respect that she knows your EN for this and forget about it? If you concentrate on monitoring the amount, check the level, then the level won't rise--bucket won't fill. Guaranteed. Because you are robbing yourself.

You ask once and not again. Period. That's respectful. Respects that she knows it's important to her.

You COMMIT to staying aware and honest, sharing what she does that you admire, who she is, whether it be dinner or donating blood for you to live...all those inbetweens matter. That's what I hear you saying.

And do not ask for admiration again, in anyway, until you hold yourself to admiring yourself...ferret out where you discount, dismiss, even deny...because requiring of your partner what you will not do for yourself is not partnering. It's using someone.

LA

There are several possibilities of why I feel that my wife could give me more Admiration:

1. My wife actually believes that the things I want Admiration for, are bad, Evil, Destructive, counterproductive or otherwise undeserving of praise.

2. My wife believes that some of my efforts that I ask for praise, are worthy of praise, but that she has decided to withhold recogntion, in bargaining for other issues.

3. My wife is enjoying the fruits of my efforts, but has not taken time to think of the effort it has taken me to provide the amenities that she is taking for granted.

4. My wife enjoys the extra amenities, and recognizes my efforts to produce the extras, but feels that what I consider Extras, are really bare minimal requirements, in her view.

5. My wife appreciates my efforts on extras, and puts in extra effort to be loving, and gives extra efforts on household chores and upgrades, and feels that her actions already demonstrate the full extent of her Admiration.

Since my wife almost always responds favorably, when I ask for Admiration, I beleive that is evidence of Inadvertent Overlooking of giving admiration for my efforts. I also often receive praise when I create the perspective of Good Wishes, by saying "Have a Nice Day."

The Phrase, "Have a Nice Day" has been working well for me wtih my wake up phone calls to my wife and daughter. Sometimes they will be reminded of something they want, and will respond with what they want. So I don't always get Admiration, like "You too!" But there is a constructive interchange, set up by HAVE A NICE DAY. It translates into "I am thinking about you, and what you wish for."

I have also created the Mystery Request for Admiration. "I would like you to think about how your wish for ABC was accomplished, and how you can tell me you appreciate my efforts to accomplish ABC."

I have to-do lists in my calendar, and I have been putting in Stars (an X with two extra lines) for Random Acts of Kindness. I use Stars for fulfilling unexpected requests, or unplanned situations needing attention, that arise unexpectedly. I could buy some REAL stick-on stars, and staple a small sheet into my calendar, without much effort.

I put a square box next to things that are on my calendar to do, and on my to-do lists. Then I get a reminder of a feeling of accomplishment, as I put a check in the box, indicating FINISHED.

I get a feeling of "Oh Well," when I put an X in the box of something I had on my calendar, but was unable to fit in. Like a non-mandatory meeting, or class, that I was intending to try to attend, if I could fit it in.

While I appreciate my wife helping me with my motivational strategies for reinforcement, I don't feel it is reasonable to expect her to know all the little details. Some parts of chores, or projects, are actually BLOCKS for me, and need special motivational strategies on one little detail, to avoid procrastination.



..

There are undoubtedly a number of questions I have not answered, at least not directly on this thread, and on other treads. If someone feels a question is pertinent, a fuller explanation of relevance, might be helpful.

Some questions have been personal and identifying, or narrowing of identity, and I have resisted giving such identifying info for privacy. But I have thought about all questions, that I have not answered, and tried to give the relevant factors relating to the unanswered questions, in my furhter posts. I have not personally ignored any qestions raised or implied.

So questions that I did not answer, are not unappreciated, or wasted.

..

What about my question:

Do you think your wife is happy with you?

It IS relevant because if she is not happy with you, giving you admiration will not come naturally to her. In fact, if you work it backwards, the fact that giving you admiration doesn't come naturally could tell YOU that you need to look at your contribution in providing a loving, fulfilling, non-LBing marriage for your wife. It could be a wake-up call to action for you to reassess yourself.

Ya know, Senator, when I read this, I thought maybe you were finally getting it:


Isn't is great how a simple phrase can bring such positive results? WTG, Senator. My H and I say that to each other every morning when I leave for work, and it's nice.

Then I read this:


O...M...G... Maybe it's must me, but that soulds like lecturing. It reminds me of how a parent would scold a naughty child. For example, if I said/did something mean to my sister, my mom might say something like "I want you to think about how that made your sister feel... and how you can make that up to her."

Then there was this:


So... you are KEEPING SCORE on random acts of kindness??? Hey, why not set up a spreadsheet on Excel (your laptop that you bought without POJAing with your W has Excel, right?). And why do I have a feeling that if your W does show you admiration, you're going to continually raise the bar on her so that the need is never really met to your satisfaction?

I don't know what to say, Senator. I saw an inkling of you finally getting it with the have a nice day stuff, then all this.

Hi Senator:

The Phrase, "Have a Nice Day" has been working well for me wtih my wake up phone calls to my wife and daughter. Sometimes they will be reminded of something they want, and will respond with what they want. So I don't always get Admiration, like "You too!" But there is a constructive interchange, set up by HAVE A NICE DAY. It translates into "I am thinking about you, and what you wish for."

Now...when I happened to read this paragraph, I thought one of us is confused. Granted...it could well be me. However, you're equating them responding in kind as being admiration. How is "You too!" actually admiration? To me...it's reciprocation but not admiration. Is reciprocation and acknowledgment some times what you're actually talking about when you talk about needing admiration?

"I would like you to think about how your wish for ABC was accomplished, and how you can tell me you appreciate my efforts to accomplish ABC."

I have to admit that I agree with GBH. Sometimes I feel that if you could just paraphrase your requests to your wife, you'd have a much better chance at getting what you want, and getting what you want is the objective, true?

What would you think about trying a little experiment with us ladies here? You tell us what you want, and we can tell you how to ask your wife. Rule is, you have to use our terminology. Just think about it. It might be a fun experiment.

Thinking more on the star thing and what GBH is talking about...perhaps keeping track of random acts of kindness is working against you and helping to build resentment and discontent rather than some sort of pat on the back?

If you do have NPD...just supposing...I can understand this idea not working. However, your sense of fulfillment is hampered severely, imo, because being admired for your good deeds is more important to you than the happiness of the people you are being 'good' to. I think you know deep down that you aren't feeling fulfilled because your way of doing things is in conflict with your conscience. Does that make sense?

Thanks for the clarification, Senator.

Yes my wife is basically happy in her marriage, but not becuase she is really in love with ME as such. I more believe that my wife is in LOVE with the IDEA of marriage. My wife enjoys the social status of having a husband who can command respect from her family and friends.

So I am a social status symbol for her. As far as doing some measure of cooking, cleaning, laundry, bill paying, trash day, or recycling, or other wise helping wiht the household or taking any of her Husband's ideas into mind or consideration, those are outside the part of the deal she BARGAINED for. That is why my wife won't leave me, not because she Loves Me, but because she knows she cannot find anyone else to give her an uncommitted marriage.

I would feel Evil and Viscious, if I left my wife now, since she has been spoiled rotten over these years. Because if she got re-married, her husband would be real angry with her habits, real often. My wife has no real clue about even how to develop fair habits of a reasonably compromising, modern marriage.

So I have tried to respond to your question, which I have been avoiding, partly because I have a shame-filled answer. But I answered also because I felt your claws penetrating deep across my Aura as I contemplated the factors for the concepts of Expanded Admiration.

What about imaginary Puffing? What about a Super Ego Boost?

"Honey, I sometimes need an Ego Boost. So I want to feel I can call you on the phone, most any time, you have time to talk. I want you to practice now, exaggerating all my good points, like we are at Disneyland. Don't lie, to make my faults into virtues. Just exaggerate anything that is good about me, and make it seem 10 or 20 time more than real life."




..

I am willing to discuss NPD.

The context is for a woman who has an NPD husband, and what are the options for handling the expanded needs of an NPD Husband?

How can the unreasonably large needs for Admiration be met by a reasonably sane woman?

My wife does not ordinarily look at my calendar. I do have pages marked PHRASES, that are reserved for words to make things smoother. I haved a page with her name, to jot reminders of issues to discuss with my wife. I do not go over the cheched boxes, the X'd Boxes, or the Star unexpected accomplishements, with my wife.



..

Senator, Sooly makes really good points. I hope you reread her last post often.

I, too, am glad that you are finally willing to look a little more closely at what we've been asking. We don't ask for the fun of it, but rather because we think that how/what you answer will be a conduit toward you finding a way to be happier.

A couple thoughts.

These are ASSUMPTIONS. Unless she specifically told you these two things, they are YOUR beliefs filtered through your own experiences. Do you understand how your assumption of what she thinks could be causing you to make harmful (to you, to her) decisions?

Based on your contempt for, or resentment of, her, I'd have to guess that you guys have had a pretty lousy marriage for quite some time. Lousy for BOTH of you. Do you agree?

Now, before you say how spoiled she is, ask yourself if you got to be spoiled rotten or got to be with someone you were so happy with you couldn't bear to be apart from them, which would you choose? Then ask yourself which your wife would rather have.

What can you do to change the dynamcs in your relationship so that she likes you so much she can't bear to be apart from you?