Waywards want to be married and keep the adultery going ... and don't think the BS should be upset :crosseyedcrazy:duh!

Excellent post rprynne... I think you explained it well.

Edited to add:

Dr. Harley even says this himself:


Any by "those" I infer that he is referring to "couples".

I agree

rprynne,

I agree that it's not likely with malice that they "oversell"

However, since the majority of folks are likely in case 1 or 2, a guarantee regarding problem 3 is essentially worthless to anyone not in problem 3.

I think too many are careless in they "sell" the guarantee intended for those in problem 3 to those who are in problems 1 or 2.

Just like the Dr can give a guarantee that fits a very small population, such as that if BOTH do this.... I can say it's worthless to the population I define. So I can say it's worthless to my (or yours, I like the way you've broken out problems 1,2 and 3) subsets much like Dr H believes he can guarantee it will work for his narrowly defined population.

I believe population 3 is a very small population based on what I've observed here. At the very least, it's a minority population as Dr H says most marriages don't survive infidelity.

So for most folks, a guarantee intended for folks facing problem 3 will have little or no value.

I think it does harm to "oversell" as it sets up an unrealistic expectation, not to mention the risk for all sorts of issues once that expectation is not met.

Just one example:

What if a customer follows the plan, but they have an undiagnosed thyroid condition?

But...but...but...

There goes the 100% success rate.

that sucking sound is all the "fun" escaping from this fun thread

I think he needs to specifically say that. Think about who is reading? A hurting betrayed spouse. So imagine that spouse after not experiencing his marriage being saved reading that "only those who are not motivated enough to complete the program fail."

He's followed the program and his marriage was not rescued and now he's told that he wasn't motivated enough.

Even if that's not what the Dr means, many will read that and draw that conclusion.

Look at how many say, the person didn't follow MB exactly, or they tried to modify it, etc.

All sorts of folks are trying to find reasons, other than the program itself, for why it failed.

So let's be realistic, or specific, or however you want to put it.

The program can fail because the WS is unwilling to buy into the program. That is not totally the fault of the WS. As I've said before, the program is "for sale" in the market place of ideas like everything else including affairs, divorce, etc.

The program is unable to reach folks who have unrealistic expectations.

(Now I'm not going to argue that's a bad thing, BS's are likely better off without the WS who expects marriage to be a Barbie and Ken fairy tale everyday. So I'm certainly not saying failure is a bad thing, LOL. It may be the best thing, ultimately, to happen to the BS.)

Dr Harley defines success and the terms by which he'll "guarantee" success very narrowly.

The reality as displayed by rprynne's post demonstrates that there are other circumstances that don't fit into Dr H's narrow formula that guarantees success.

As I've said before, this is a unique circumstance where it depends upon more than merely the BS's motivation. So it's not exactly comparable to dieting. I can be extremely motivated about MB'ing, but it takes more than my fanatic devotion and commitment to MB to make changes.

So we as MB proponents and I believe Dr H need to be careful in how the present things such as the quote presented.

I haven't ignored this. I think we will soon. Perhaps this winter, looking for a place to get warm for weekend if we get tired of snuggling in more Northern climates. (I think the last time I checked they were all down south during the Winter.)

We just did so many hours of pre-marital counseling that our heads are sore right now

I actually presented Dr Harley's books to my wife when we were dating, saying this is the philosophy along with scripture that I wanted to follow. So my bride is a believer and practitioner of MB.

We do a pretty good job at POJA, meeting needs, avoiding LB's and ensuring the protection of our marriage.

So when we are ready for a refresher, or just a fun yet educational weekend, we'll likely sign up.

I agree... 100% (ahem).

I think we do need to be careful not to mislead since I think we have more exposure to the newbies than probably even Dr. Harley does at first. But honestly, out of all the programs out there, I believe... 100% (ahem) that MB provides the best chance for recovery. Also, another point is that recovery isn't always defined as recovery of the marriage. I've seen several people here on MB that I consider successes because they have walked through the fire. They may not have recovered their marriage but have come out a better person... because... they followed the MB plans.

This deserves a highlight..

Personal recovery IMO is the centerpiece Dr. Harley's plan, and can be accomplished independently of marital recovery.

Besides.. it... personal recovery.. for the BS needs to begin first for success on either outcome.

How did I miss PM's original post? I am using MB principal for this very reason and I've found it far more useful than individual and group counselling (which I've also done). Just highlighting this piece again - it's that important.

No, because the BS that you are talking about did NOT follow the program that is backed by a guarantee...I believe the BS that you are referring to is one that has worked Plans A and B and perhaps had coaching with one of the Harleys...All great stuff, but is NOT the MB program that is guaranteed to work if both spouses follow it...The program backed by the guarantee is the one that includes LESSONS to be done by a COUPLE and then IMPLEMENTED...

Mrs. W

OK time for some more FOG GIBBERISH...

Scene 1: Conversation in August shortly after my sister-in-law's wedding

Me: "Why is OM still contacting you? What part of "No Contact" don't you both understand?"

WW: "We're only emailing each other a few times per week, to see how each other's weekends were etc"

Me: "OK so you wouldn't have any problems showing me these emails then?"

WW: "Well no, it's private..."

WW then takes a shower and foolishly leaves her email account open on the laptop. I check it and discover emails declaring undying love, plans for the future, huge red love hearts etc. I am (as you would expect) VERY upset by all this and confront WW in the bathroom

Me: "WW, I have just read your emails that you left open on the laptop."

WW: [silence]

Me: "Basically you have fed me a pack of f***ing lies, deceptions and untruths..."

WW: "Well, most of our communication did revolve around chit-chat"

Me: "You LIED to me"

WW: "Well since we're not really together it's OK to lie to you. And you don't deserve the truth".

Now how's that for fog gibberish? We live under the same roof, have sex regularly, share chores, groceries, bills, go out for dinner together, attend all family functions together - and she thinks we're not really together???

After the OW found out that her BH and I had spoken and met to exchange information she told him, "that's just sick and wrong!"


Really? But screwing around with a married man while you are also married is not "sick and wrong?"

Waywards

Hey, OWH and I were "sick and wrong" for speaking to each other as well! Then a few months later, Wstbx and OW were asking us to move in together so he could pay her more child support.

Are you SURE this isn't some kind of viral infection of the brain? Because this consistent stupid behavior among waywards is even more definitively diagnostic that most of the symptoms of actual diseases they give you drugs for.

EE - I certainly have nothing to add that you haven't already been told by Rprynne, MrsW, TST, PM etc.

I don't think ANYONE here has EVER told a BS that they have a 100% of getting their spouse to end their affair and recover the marriage. I certainly have not.

You also seem to not get that there is a difference between ending an affair and recovering a marriage. To recover a marriage successfully naturally requires cooperation of both spouses.

I just don't get what you are trying to prove here.

No one blames any BS if the marriage is not recovered. I just do not get your objections.

Alright. Here's one.

Please keep your puke buckets ready.

I can just see you and OW at Six Flags or the mall pushing strollers together.

"It's not just about the sex; we really have connected and I can talk to her about anything". (conversations must have been very one-sided as she spoke hardly any Engleeesh)

"You've got no ambition, OW really knows what she wants" (a passport perhaps???).

"She knows about my health problems and it doesn't matter to her" (OW dumped him when he started dialysis).

Dare I say, Sucker!!

I would have ordered a brain MRI :crosseyedcrazy: after that comment.

I think my comment was, "You must be smokin' crack."