"If you got to know Mike you'd LOVE him. Everybody does"

my XWW told me she wanted to "hook" up with a single girl that we both knew. She said" you two would make a Good Couple.

What a loser.

Af

After Exposure:

"I could have been happy if you just let me go" "Now I'll walk through hell to get away from you"

Today RWW doesn't remember saying that.

Ouch, Justlooking24, that hurts.

Another one from WxH when he was still WH:

" I'm tired of dealing with you. you think of no one but yourself. I must have been totally retarded to not see it long ago,but I'll tell you now I see you for what you truely are : controling, manipulative,and self centered."

Maybe he thought he was speaking about himself......

UGG Bad memories.

I got all the standard:

I never loved you

You never satisfied me

OM is more of a man than you are

BLECH

My H upon finally telling me who the OW#2 was (an old g/f with 4 kids!!!) "I will never cheat on her!"

Later after OC was born and I asked him why he always insisted I work after our children were born but OW could be a SAHM mom he said "she can't work, it wouldn't be good for OC and she has no family to look after him". Huh? Mom/dad/sister are not "family" and MY COM never had "family" look after them. That was what babysitters were for!

During our false recovery exWH asked, "Should we find someone for you to f@$#?" Yes folks, he is that classy.

If only we had a mirror or a video camera when they said this kind of stuff......

OK, I admit it, I’m obviously a gullible sort. I believed my wife’s lies and diversions for years, if you need proof. So, I desire to become an informed consumer. Part of my personal Plan A, if you will.

The first step is define what you mean, right?

First define success.

Start with a random sample of 1000 marriages affected by an affair.

90% fail to recover because they just don’t (DR H’s stats) and they never get past, say, lurking or venting on MB forums, and perhaps reading SAA.

Leaves 100 couples to try the real full-up MB program. So, these 100 couples start out in the MB program (the full 8x10 color glossy with circles and arrows on the back MB program).

10% are LTA’s -> he admits little success with these. In fact, sometimes they are specifically excluded from full recovery performance stats.

10% turn out to have addiction issues – MB program is formally withdrawn until additions dealt with.

10 % are serial philanderer driven or affair marriages in the first place - MB program is not effective, by admission, in these cases – recovery not 100% guaranteed.

10% have an OC situation and either NC is impossible or the BS just can do it even after trying for a years. The trigger needs diapers too often.

In typically 70% the WS holds back for one reason or another including guilt, entitlement, laziness, FOO, basic personality, or for whatever reason you want – 100% recovery never really achieved nor guaranteed.

In typically 50% the BS withdraws and holds back – can’t in fact get over it in the end – recovery not 100% nor guaranteed. Maybe the BS needs an apology but never gets one (apology not required in the true blue MB program) or the BS ENs are never fully met to satisfaction – after all, the bar is raised now because of the adultery. Fill in whatever personal demons and reasons ye anye olde BS may have.

If you don’t like the above percentages, fill in your own. I base these on published studies, MB site numbers, MB themed books and years of reading threads. But feel free to put in your own. Anything less than unity for any one entry will result in less than 100%. (Notice I did not include recoveries that failed because of suicide. I am aware of three BS and one WS used to post on MB who achieved that form of guarantee.)

This leaves a measurable success rate of:

100* 0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.3*0.5 = not quite 10 couples remaining in the pool of actual real potentially true successful 100% guaranteed recoveries.

The MB recovery guarantee is defined only for these ten couples who actually followed the program for some undefined period, but a long time nonetheless. So now, of course, 100% recovery is absolutely guaranteed for them.

IMO, this guarantee is doublespeak just like the use of the term “just compensation”. This is fine print that isn’t even printed. This is a tautology – if you didn’t succeed, you obviously did not follow the program. QED. Recovery is guaranteed for those who recover.

But wait, there’s more!

Now define 100% recovery for the residual ten couples.

1 WS accidentally and inadvertently breaks NC 4 years later and the affair restarts (this is a true full 100% MB home study program recovered case that had its own thread here on MB a few years ago.)

3 WS do it again 4 to 6 years later, fall off the wagon unexpectedly with someone new (these are true cases that used the full MB home study program or the weekend and were defined as recovered and had a dedicated thread here.)

2 BS decide 4 and 6 years later respectively they are not ever truly going to get over the sex part of the adultery, a full suite of met ENs otherwise included, and agonizingly file for divorce after all. Again, both true cases threaded here that used the full MB program, including the weekend.

2 BS have their own unexpected affair 6 and 7 years later. Both cases that used the full MB program and have a thread here, and so they have to start the program over again.

We are left with two Fully 100% Recovered couples out of 100 that used the full MB program. Guaranteed.

And the cold aching hole with the stiff and ugly scar tissue all around is still there in at least one of the fully recovered BS’s hearts, MB guarantees not withstanding.

Who is the one left standing whole?

Who is the one really mostly there because of the children?

Me to my H: But you always liked him

My H to me: That was before he decided to f*** my wife.

Me to all of MB: How DARE you all say I have restarted the A. All I did was meet the OM for a secret drink.

Sweet. Glad to see Appy being more optimistic. A few of days ago, it was 0.0% chance for recovery. Now we are up to 0.2%

Everybody keep posting, based on projections, (rate of 0.05%/day), in just under 5.5 years, Appy will be "on board."

No offense, just having a little fun with you Appy.

I have posted before I am willing to exempt certain adulteries from the projections.

A one time, first and only time drunken ONS. A one and only very short A stopped almost immediately by the WS and confessed immediately without a hint of justification.

There are a very, very small minority of genuine mistakes, tripping and falling (and picking up) when least expected. No lying, no hiding, no false recoveries, no justifications, no complaining, no comparing, no withdrawal, no blaming (during any phase) of the BS, no nothing but complete confession, remorse and total humble acceptance of consequences. It’s obvious the WS didn’t even want to be in the A, in most cases and got the he11 out almost immediately.

But these few are tiny exceptions that prove the rule.

There are a select few here on MB, I think.

But bottom line, all WS in the universe are simply who they always were. They will never change because no one changes who they really are. All these WS, they just white-knuckle the rest of their lives hiding from and avoiding who they really are.

I disagree. I am no where near who I was back then. I give credit to God for the changes in me. I also give credit to MB for helping those changes mature.

If this is what you believe, why are you here?

co-signed.

Appy...may God's love grant you peace.

All this whining is getting old and I mean that in a friendly manner. If adultery is comparable to rape or the loss of a child and you had been raped or lost a child and continued for YEARS with this attitude...I'd be telling you the same thing. Get a grip. Life is short. Today is a privilege denied to many. Please see a doctor or a shrink but this is no longer healthy...in fact, it's hurtful to others.

Who promised you a rose garden?

If your life sucks...do something about it instead of taking it out on the good people here that HAVE experienced something different than yourself. Sure we sell hope sometimes where the overwhelming evidence is that there isn't much. What's fundamentally wrong with that? Would you prefer more suicides? Do you have no respect for the process of individual recovery which takes a bs gently through the stages of grief? Are you just suffering from MB buyer's remorse since MB failed you? (if so...take responsibility for your decision to purchase it and respect other BS's choices). Finally, whether it rarely happens or not...the fact that it does is undeniable.

You certainly are not the candidate of hope.

Mr. Wondering

Anyone mind if I go off on a tangent here? Rather than argue who is right or wrong or what %, there's something intelligent right here:


Ok, my M didn't recover. But it wasn't because of the A itself. I could have gotten past him having sex with OW. I might have even got past his feelings for OW, provided she disappear from our lives entirely. But the above in bold - this is what did it. With the possible exception of the drunken ONS Aph describes, it's absolutely loaded with hateful actions. To recover the M, you have to deal with each and every one, and considering they include lying and deception, how do you fully know that you have? Heck, for personal recovery you have to deal with all these, because you have a lifetime of memories, of children growing up, of important milestones - all of which may or may not have even been real.
I do hope this is not true. Because at the rate adultery occurs, it means there are few decent people around. People do learn from mistakes. I've made some doozies in my life and done things I regret. I won't do them again. The difference is the complexity of adultery - all those hateful things wrapped up in a single word. One can't simply say "I'll never lie again" or "I'll never transfer blame again". They might do these individual things, but they need to get ALL of it if they are going to change. So yes it's hard. But I believe it's possible too.

Then again, I don't think I'd take a chance with someone who has been adulterous in the past. And then, maybe the FWxS is more likely to have learned some of this. But then what if they haven't. So you can see how BS scars carry on even after the M has ended.

2uestion:

If WSs are who they always were, when did they become who they are? When they had an affair? Or as they were growing up?

See, this is why I believe that all of this, the things we do as we develop and the things we change because they don't work out, are BEHAVIORS.

-ol' 2long

For me, fundamental change is changing 1 of the following about a person. 1) What they want. 2) How they decide what they want. 3) How they go about getting what they want.

I think if a person changes 1 of those, they have fundamentally changed. If someone wants to call that behavior modification instead of change, then okay.

What is difficult is that for a WS to achieve recovery, they usually have to change all 3. IMHO, this is the rarest of the FWS's.

And when Appy says white knuckling, the way I view it, is that represents a FWS who has changed 0 of the 3, because after all, not changing how they go about getting what the want (lies, deception, etc.) can certainly be a method to appear to have changed 1 and 2.

But, IMHO, most of us who struggle in recovery are dealing with a FWS not as Appy as described, but rather a FWS, who has only changed 1 or 2 of the 3. And for most of us, the struggle is that they haven't changed item 3. i.e. They have decided they don't want OM, but want to be happy in the M. They have decided to make their decisions less on feeling, emotion, and more on what's right. But they still resort to their "old methods" to make that happen.

Hmm. 2long, the more I think about this, I don't have a problem with you referring to this as a behaviour.

But that means that the affair is a behaviour too right? That can be changed.

I think it's OK to be defined by what we DO because that is really who we are. Our character is formed by what we do.

In a VLTA like Aphy's I can see that his wife's character was formed and there may be no going back on that - particularly as she has clearly not re-engaged in the marriage.

Now my wife's affair wasn't as Aphy described yet we are fully recovered. On d-day she walked out. Came back 2 weeks later. Affair ran for 12 months EA before they acted on it for 3 months.

She was not initially remorseful etc etc. Basically everything Aphy states as a hopeless case.

Yet we are now very happy - both of us. My experience has been different.

I also think Aphy is projecting and I suspect he's dscovered something recently that has sent him off on this rant. He would find help here if he sought it.

and further, his wife's character is a cheater. Whereas for my wife, it was an aberation of character. I think a VLTA is different. That's a whole would of deception and dishonesty right there.