The FIRST time???? But there is NO addiction yet...right?

No, actually it is less of a guess than the addiction theory. The same chemicals released when one is in love or infatuated are also released when eating chocolate.

OK

Absolutely they know it's wrong. I knew it was wrong to lie, cheat and steal from my job. But I did it anyway.

I was so unhappy in myself. I was so desperate to escape the "reality of life". I didn't learn surviving tools that were healthy ways of dealing in life. Then I became addicted to drugs and though I got sober, I still didn't learn my lessons in life in how to handle life on lifes terms. I handled problems selfishlessly even though I knew they were wrong.

I didn't care, I wanted to feel better. I was stealing money to pay for food for my kids. The stealing was wrong, the justification to feed my kids was a lie because I was spending money irresponsibly to fix my pain inside and my kids suffered, so the justification and the high I got from getting away from it was on.

Was it wrong, yes, I knew it and didn't care. I was just doing what I wanted to do.

I am probably predisposed, but they have never proven a genetic link. Even so, anyone has to drink ALOT to become addicted. Being predisposed is not the same as being addicted. No matter why a person is that way, they have to start somewhere.


But MEDC, Dr Harley says that. I say that. Steve Harley says that. None of us are invested in any way in this belief. My only interest is truth. My H was not addicted; he was just a bad man.

And I don't see how this belief would help a BS get past it. HOW??

I know that you know full well that WS' are foggy. Don't even tell me you have not read their nutjob posts on this forum. I have seen you spin out just reading some of the crack pot posts they post here.

The first time what?

Again, the choices that you make to begin the affair are NOT the addiction...The addiction comes AFTER those SELFISH, THOUGHTLESS choices are made...

You walk into it thinking that you can handle it (really it doesn't occur to you that you are even "handling" anything)...that it's just conversation and for me "reminiscing" since OM was an ex-boyfriend...then a little further in, that it was just some "harmless flirting"...I thought that nothing would come of talking in "what ifs" and "remember whens" with OM...He lived 750 miles away from me...Mr. W knew that I was talking to him...I didn't get that what I was doing was "BAD"...I didn't realize I would stir "feelings" by doing this...that I would get "hooked" on those "feelings"...

Look the rational, logical side of me saw OM as "icky"...Nowhere close to the man that Mr. W was/is...Was WAY less intelligent, WAY less educated, made WAY less money, didn't have a good sense of humor, was shy (not my cup of tea), had little, if any, respect for women, was an open RACIST - which I abhor...He was living w/ his parents at age 36 for crying outloud!!! And yet STILL I had an affair with him...Um, crazy? Ya think?

Mrs. W

Dude, I don't think I could eat that much chocolate in a lifetime...I'm sure glad of that too!

Not to mention that I'm not guessing as I have both eaten chocolate and unfortunately had an affair...

Mrs. W

Then why are WSs always going on about how "I wasn't myself"? It's a blatant attempt to reduce the maliciousness of what they've done. Statements like "I don't know what I was thinking" are an attempt to pacify their own conscience, or to diminish the act in the eyes of others, even if they claim to accept 100% responsibility for their actions.


It's not abnormal to crave sex with a wide variety of partners. As a matter of fact, it's encoded in our DNA to do exactly that. So, sleeping with other people, even while married, is not an addiction. It's a choice.


What about the fog? Alien abduction? Either they are clear-headed, which means NO fog and NO alien abduction, or they weren't clear-headed, which most here seem to believe.

I don't just mean they are clear-headed at the start of the affair. I mean before, during, and after the affair. Clear as a bell.


I've already addressed how the desire to cheat isn't an "abnormally strong craving", therefore not an addiction. It's a perfectly normal craving that we can all choose to act on or not.

My knowledge or lack of knowledge about addiction, about which you have no idea, is irrelevant because we're not talking about an addiction.


This made me laugh out loud. My drinking doesn't validate my opinion, but yours does? Please.

It's really a moot point, since we're not talking about an addiction, anyway.


Well, YOU couldn't easily refute my claim. My claim IS based on personal experience and evidence, and my posts on this thread are filled with logic and opinion...I won't go tooting my own horn and call it "facts" as a few others might.

I don't know what addicts you are referring to...I've never claimed alcoholism, for instance, isn't a real addiction, and cheaters aren't addicts...so who's going to tell me the "facts"?

Former waywards have plenty to gain by telling others...and themselves...that they were in the throes of an addiction. They weren't thinking clearly.




Then I will have to respectfully disagree with Dr. Harley. 35 years of experience doesn't make you correct 100% of the time in any field.

1. I agree

2. I agree

3. I agree. As I've already stated, the desire to sleep with new partners isn't an abnormal craving at all, therefore not an addiction.

4. I agree.


The "fog" isn't really a fog, or an altered state of mind. "Fog" is a very misleading and inappropriate word where infidelity is involved.

It's the garbage that one spews, through words and actions, when they are trying to defend an indefensible position.

Like when a vase is broken, and your 5-year-old tells you a convoluted story about how it's all the fault of the cat. Are they in a fog, or simply trying to defend an indefensible position?

It's not crazy, it's not looney, and it's not insane. It's stupidity, immaturity, and desperation.

I don't see them as foggy...I see them as evil. I always have said here that a WS is a BAD person...and that they can become a good person by changing their actions. I do NOT think WS are foggy.


By making it seem like it is a trap anyone could have fallen in. If you will recall, I don't buy this line of thinking either.

I think the Harley's plan is the best out there. I do not buy 100% of their concepts though (an exceptionally high %, but not all).

I don't buy the addiction theory to explain the "fog." When I use the term "fog" in my posts it is nothing more than my FWH's [censored] up, demented, and twisted thinking. He was not addicted to OW and therefore, had zero withdrawl from her. I can understand the need for some BSs to see it as an addiction as a coping mechanism.

I never wooed my H back to me with Plan A. In fact I kicked his [censored] relentlessly for weeks and months after dday and I'm so glad I did because I don't have the feeling of being second best to skankho. If life with me is such he// and OW is all that and he can't possibly live w/o her, then get the [censored] out!!!! What made the difference for me to try and recover the M was that with all my DJs and AOs, FWH took it and didn't run away. Not buying into the addictiveness of the A fog is why I struggle with my decision to stay at times and struggle with the resentment and the issue of forgiveness...a good man who made a bad decision or a bad man just showing his true colors???

Upside_Down,
On dday, I was crushed. I thought that H MUST HATE me to be able to have an A and do the things he did. But even at my lowest, I knew deep down what my worth was/is and it certainly isn't beneath a low life POS like OW. You will get there one day.

of course you wouldn't, because your opinion is not based on any facts, evidence, reason, logic, or practical experience. And I appreciate that you admit that. Like I said before, you don't understand the NATURE of addiction and because of same, have attributed many false characteristics. That is called a strawman argument.


Nor does ZERO experience, education, and understanding make you correct either.

But the two are not mutually EXCLUSIVE. They are evil. And FOG describes the state of mind that serves to RATIONALIZE the IRRATIONAL. They are BOTH, IMO.

Mel, I have locked up a-0holes that rationalized the irrational. I wasn't going to assault her...I just wanted her wallet...that is her fault. No addiction or foggy thinking. A clear minded rationalization to help mitigate some of their horrible actions.

Sorry, I just see it as evil and not foggy. I know the Harley's know their stuff...but they also are here to save marriages and IMHO, this concept helps them do that.

While I do think they are right most of the time, they have made errors...such as NOT spelling out the STD issue...and leaving foggy the idea of meeting emotional needs (which include sex) during an active affair.

I think I understand their logic and if it helps someone through an affair, well, all the better. I just happen to not agree with this concept.

Here's my issue. What if the OM, besides having an A, does really have good qualities and is more compatible with your WS. I mean there are lot of people on this planet. Not every OP is the scum of the earth dirt bags who have no attractive qualities to offer. I kind of wish that was the case with this OM. But I knew this guy. Its just not the case. I mean they are having A so that is extremely bad character trait but it it doesn't take away the fact they may be funny or good looking, etc. For example, in my situation my WW enjoyed talking on the phone for hours with the OM. He worked part time so had plenty of time to talk with her. And he was good at conversation. BS kind of stuff. Definitely more so then me. That's just reality. Even before the A my wife and I would struggle sometime to talk on the phone for 15 minutes. Yet she could talk with him for hours upon hours about nonsense. And she even admitted to me she misses that (not the OM necessarily but just being able to talk with someone like that because we can not talk like that). My fear is that no matter how many lovebank deposits or plan A or whatever, I can't change the fact that the OM was better at conversation with my WW then I am/was. That makes him better then me at that and that's why I feel 2nd best in this regard. Unfortunately for me conversation seems to be pretty high on a women's EN list and I feel like a lot flows from that - love, sex, etc. Its very hard to accept.

How exactly would that HELP a BS "cope?" How would that make anyone FEEL BETTER? It would not make me feel better. Knowing my H had an "addiction" to a person would make me FEEL WORSE. MUCH WORSE.

Seems that calling it an "addiction" would make it MUCH HARDER to cope, so I dont' understand this.

I do not say it to help me "cope," but because it is true. And I sort of doubt that Dr Harley says it because it helps him cope.

My opinion is based on facts, evidence, reason, logic, AND practical experience. I admitted nothing, so you've created a strawman argument yourself.

You have no idea how well I understand addiction. You assume you know better ***edit***


I don't have ZERO experience, education, or understanding, ***edit***

***edit***

Any person in an affair is a dirt bag. The fact that they may be attractive or talk a good game doesn't detract from that.

Their conversations were high schoolish. It was a fantasy.

Probably not. We got married young. Never really dated on whole lot of women. Neither did she. Probably looking back not the greatest thing but didn't think it mattered. I was one of guys who didn't mind being married. The single life while fun was never quite as fun as it seemed like on TV.

while I agree with you on this topic...drop the implied name calling.

That criminal was not fogged out? I don't believe that fog has to come from addictions. I think fog comes from an agenda to commit EVIL. They fog comes when people try to rationalize wrongdoing. Instead of changing their behavior, they ALTER REALITY. My definition of FOG is an altered reality that people create who are in VIOLATION of thier consciences.

Losing an argument 101: when the FACTS won't serve to defend your position, call your opponent names :RollieEyes: