His reality isn't altered...it is an excuse for horrible behavior. If that lie didn't work, he would come up with twenty more to help explain his way out of the horrible behavior.

So, no, criminals are not foggy...they are cunning, manipulative and evil...just like adulterers.

Or just tell them that they don't know what they're talking about because they don't know anything.

Sorry if I wounded you, dear.



:RollieEyes:

MEDC, have you ever watched that movie Unfaithful with Richard Gere? That was a fascinating movie, IMO, in that it was very realistic and it showed the addiction of the wife very well. I have heard other WWs say it was very accurate.

It was one of the best adultery movies I have seen and it didn't make me want to puke. It portrayed it as the sickening event it really is.

Because then the BS can blame the WS's A on something he couldn't control. WS couldn't help himself.....

To me that would be much easier to digest than your WS is just a crappy person.

See, that is exactly how I define FOG.

I agree that a person who has an affair is a dirt bag but then what does that make my wife? Kind of hard to think of your wife as a dirtbag and then say I love you. And what if its not just talking a good game. I recorded this conversations. It wasn't just all fantasy. They were friends who discussed life and stuff. One thing my WW made clear - she was just as responsible for the affair. She was not taken advantage of. I disagree a bit because the OM was 50 years old and didn't work and could devote all his time to my wife who was a stay at home mom who had 3 small children at home and with a husband who worked 60 hours a week who didn't pay enough attention to my wife. Talk about a ripe situation for an affair. I think that's probably why this whole Fog, alien thing comes in. People do need to rationalize things to a certain extent. But just because you rationalize something doesn't mean its right. Sometimes I think the only solution to really get over it is to go the D route. Not my 1st choice but feel like its the only way to recover my sanity.

Up,

You are still early in this process.

Two of the things you need to come to peace with is that this isn't your fault and you are who you are. Every single one of us, if we wanted 1 specific need met the best way possible could continue to search the whole world for that one person that met that need the best. As you know, that is a lousy way to live because we all have more than 1 need.

You recognize your weakness. You can likely improve. But, at the end of the day you are also who you are. You don't want to have to look over your shoulder everyday for the rest of your life that your wife may find someone with a better skill of conversation than you. That is also a lousy way to live.

As you move through this, you will go from feeling 2nd best to feeling, WW, go with him if you want and he is so great. It is at this point you recognize that infidelity is WAY more about your WW than it is about you and what you lack.

But that doesn't make sense, because addicts can and do control their behavior. They are 100% in control of their actions. Just because one has an addiction does not mean they CAN'T control it.

Aren't ALL WS' "crappy persons?" I don't see how that could be logically denied. They are not likely to get the Man of the Year award for cheating on their spouse and I believe most BS accept that.

In my opinion, if they were FOGGY, they would believe their own lies. They KNOW they aren't true...but are grasping for anything to lessen the blow.

I consider this nothing but evil.

Yes, I have seen the movie and consider her an evil skank...not foggy.

It makes sense to me. Mel, if one were to buy into the foggy theory, I think they would also need to buy into the concept that anyone is capable of an affair. I don't buy that either. Never did.

I think that is my big problem - I'm not believing the whole fog/alien/addict argument and yet I'm still trying to reconcile. Its kind of making me crazy. How do you love someone and be with someone who was clearly hurting you and not thinking of you for such an extended amount of time. I almost envy people who come on here and say their S had a ONS and they are trying to work it out. That almost seems easy (not that it is ok but just different).

This statement explains a lot.

As you said it was about nonsense. Your W already "knows" you, asking OM what his favorite color is not quality conversation just new. Conversations about who loves who more or who misses the other more, can't wait to do x, y, and z to you during the gaga phase of their lalaland fantasy is no different then what most other relationships go through. My FWH and I used to talk for hours when we were dating and first married...now we are too busy. We make more time for each other now but there's no way I could sit on the phone for hours with my H without repeating the same old stuff 35 different ways. Hours on the phone with OM doesn't mean he was good at conversation per se.

I don't know if you're a believer. But it's my belief that we're all wired for sin. Left to ourselves we could really become depraved. Once a person makes a SANE decision to cross that line, they have taken a stand against everything they believe in. It gets easier the longer it goes on. To finally have to face what they've done is to admit that they made a conscious choice.

BUT while they're in the middle of "doing it" they reason it out with all kinds of excuses eventually believing their crazy rationalizations.

THAT's what I call the fog. They're in the middle of acting out. They aren't behaving like the spouse we knew, in fact, they seem like a stranger.

Are they evil? Not when they make the choice initially (although there are exceptions to this). They become evil once they cross that line. It's hard to cross back over that line into righteousness and goodness, but it can be done.

I don't know. I use to believe my wife or myself was not capable of an affair. Especially in our relationship - we were both very open - not jealous told each everything. Looking back probably not the best way to be - I think we didn't had clear boundaries (like letting my wife talk with other guys because I trusted her 100%).

But one thing this A has done is humble me - I use to look down at other people's M and think wow what I great marriage I have and what a screwed up M other people have. Well, guess how that turned out? So now when I hear someone say "I could never have an affair" or even if I say to my wife - "I would never do this to you". I try to stop myself from being so arrogant. We are all imperfect people. Not saying all of us are going to have affairs - but given just the right circumstance and just the right state of your marriage, can I say with 100% certainty I would never ever do it. I no longer can. Maybe that makes me a bad person. But I would rather be honest with myself and honest about my wife and take steps to not put myself or my wife in the position for an A to happen again rather just relying on my inner moral compass. Compass have a habit of being off when subjected to strong attractions.

yes, we are...but not in the same way. We all have different weaknesses.


Yes.

I'm not a strong believer per say. I try to be a good person because I want to and it is the right thing to do. But I will agree with you - I think everyone is wired for sin or to do bad things if give the opportunity or right situation. My wife still can't tell me why she really did it. Why she couldn't stop? She says she feels like she was living a double life. She didn't know who she was. Etc, Etc. Is that fog? She never left. Didn't sound like she had any intention. I think she became very comfortable having two people supporting her in different ways. She even used the phrase she had her cake and ate it to. I really feel like she is remorseful and very guilty. And since we all make mistakes doesn't everyone deserver forgiveness? Sounds good but sometimes easier said then done.

Well I don't know what to tell you, but it makes sense to me. You are right that addicts can choose to control their behavior. Any person can choose to control their behavior...whatever it is. Some are weak and choose not to.

I agree with you there.

You can give forgiveness any time you want. That doesn't mean she doesn't have to live with the consequences. Even if you recover, your marriage will be forever changed. It can be made better but the scar will always be there.

That's why recovery of a marriage from adultery is so hard. It takes a lot of strength. The Harleys offer the best solutions I've seen for healing such a broken marriage, but even then, the history never goes away.

I don't mean to bring you down, there is hope. You just have to decide if you can live with the scar.