My first thought is that you need to start out the letter plainly stating that you are dissatisfied with the marriage and considering a divorce.

If he doesn't see immediately how serious you are, he won't absorb the full importance of what you're asking, just, oh here she goes again. Stop that before it even starts.

No, I don't think this is possible nor is it possible. I am not real sure about Asperger's but my understanding it is not so much as 'reading a social situation' but more of a more single minded focus which makes social situations awkward. Definition is unimportant b/c unless you are a corpse and you end up alone with a naked woman pulling down your pants getting a condom put on you, what more is there to assess. Did he think that the condom was going to lead to a "friendly" cup of coffee? Don't think so. Krazy is right, leave the Asperger's out. What really happened was more along the lines of his poor boundaries led him into the situation. She was naked and helped it along, but the condom would not have went on if he was not willing. I would guess his brain kicked in after it was over and he said this was a mistake and you are a wh0re. If it is truly the asperger's fault, a lie detector would reveal that.

LOL!

How do you know what he's thinking... I really think he's got that attitude w/me "here we go again, nothing that I do is ever good enough, why can't you see the things I DO do".


MS- I'm not ignoring you, I'm drafting a response to your post.

That comment about the "Why can't you see the things I DO do" is really important. It was something that I learned with my H. He needs appreciation IMMEDIATELY for the things that he does.

Have you read the book "The Truth about Cheating" by Gary Neuman? It talks a lot about the reasons men look for outside attention. It was very enlightening to both me and my H. H said that a lot of the things that Gary said were very accurate and just things that H didn't know how to vocalize.

MS

PS...I don't feel ignored...it was a LONG post.

This was like a kick to the stomach, it’s exactly how I feel.

MS “I was exactly where you are about three months ago. I felt like I was pulling my H through recovery by the nose.” “He couldn't see how the little things that he expected me to deal with were killing me.”

This makes a lot of sense-

“Well, the people here picked me up, brushed me off, kicked me in the butt, and told me to STOP FOCUSING ON H! They told me to quit thinking about him altogether and look at what would make ME happy.”

I think I’m spending so much time focusing on what he’s not giving me, that I’m not giving it to me either, so I’m starving… Ultimately that’s my fault since I cannot control anything/anyone but myself. I’m starving myself. Why on earth would I do that?

This is sooo what I want and need-

“Something amazing happened...my H started to seek ME out. He would come into the office to see what I was doing. He would look for me on the back patio and sit down with me. He would ask ME what I wanted to do. There was a shift.”

I feel like during our two days a week that he’s home, I’m wandering around behind him like a puppy, and I don’t like that about myself.


I know the songs you’re talking about and I like them both, I guess I’ve never really paid much attention to what they really could mean as they pertain to my life-

“The lyrics to "Stand" really say it all..."When push comes to shove, you taste what you're made of. You might bend till you break cos it's all you can take. On your knees you look up, decide you've had enough. You get mad, you get strong, wipe your hands, shake it off, then you stand.””


Thank you so much MS for taking the time to share your own story!



H&S- “What really happened was more along the lines of his poor boundaries led him into the situation.” I absolutely 110% agree with this statement.

And this “ She was naked and helped it along, but the condom would not have went on if he was not willing. I would guess his brain kicked in after it was over and he said this was a mistake and you are a wh0re.”

I have asked him time and again if he completed the act and he insists “no”. I don’t know why he’d lie about this, it doesn’t change the fact he cheated… interestingly though, the last time I confronted him on it, he got angry.

Maybe if he lies to me about it, then he can lie to himself to make himself feel better about his crappy decision; not unlike MS’s DH in his feeling of “I’m a good man who made a bad decision”, and if he didn't "finish and walked away", then that'd make him a better man than one who had...


“If it is truly the asperger's fault, a lie detector would reveal that.” I guess it really doesn’t matter if it’s the Asperger’s fault or not, it doesn’t change the facts of the situation. Consider the Asperger’s dropped, cuz I really want to get down to the bare bones of what happened, what led to it, and how to keep it from happening in the future.

MS, consider that book purchased! That's one that I haven't read, and from what I see in my thread, and in your BS Letter thread, I think there are alot of similarities between our H's.

Just got off the phone w/DH, and I thanked him for calling me and checking in, I told him that it mattered to me.

He thanked me back and stated that my recognizing his actions mattered to him, and that's a big deal to him.

I let him know that I was going to try really hard to recognize things like that while he's doing him and let him know that I appreciate it, at that moment. That I realized this was something that he needed and I was going to bust my butt to make sure I give it to him.

It was good!



Did this exchange sound familiar MS?!

YES!!!

That's exactly what my H needs too. He said that it's a bit like a kid...you don't tell your child that they did a nice job eating their lunch when you put them to bed that night...you tell them right then and there.

We call them "M&M's" because it's like handing a child a small treat every time they do something you like. I just simply say "I love this" when H does something I love. Or I recognize the phone call like you said. Very small things...very specific. And it's amazing how those things start to multiply.

As for the "puppy" thing...that's what I would do to. I was so desperate for our M to work, that I was unconsciously sabotaging it with my clinginess. When I started to focus on me and H was just a nice bonus...he started to miss me. I would be scrapbooking instead of sitting on the couch watching him play a video game. When he would come it to see what I was doing, I'd acknowledge him, but then I would go back to what I was doing. And I really was enjoying myself. I made a very conscious choice to ignore all of those clingy thoughts...like trying to stay up with him when really I wanted to go to bed, or trying to engage him in things when I could enjoy my time doing things for me just as well.

It's amazing!!!

MS

Just for kicks, you might want to try what Mogi did, just for a week or two, and see if you get the results you want.

Reevaluate, and see if it's going the right direction, or if you need to go to something else.

I was already on that train Neak! It can't hurt to try; does it need to be stuff around the house, or would it be bad if I go shopping, or take a class, or something?

The reason why I've not done something like that is because H's job has almost always had him out of town during the week,(for the past 11 years), so we don't get alot of time together, and I want to spend what we have with him. Although, since his ONS I'm much more needy than I ever have been. We used to both be very independant, he still is, and I'm not so much.

DS and I also used to visit my family and friends once a month (2 hour drive), and I haven't done that since; I'm scared to leave him alone.


Yes, I have issues! That's why I'm in IC!



Okay so do my own thing at home, or can I leave the home to do them?

Two thoughts...

One - your recovery is going to be much harder if your H is traveling without you all the time. It makes for way too much opportunity to continue independent behavior. Does he stay out of town overnight or is he just gone a lot during the day? Hardline is he should change jobs so that he doesn't have to travel or you travel with him. Reality is, he may not be able to do that so you'll have to get creative. Maybe you two can set up Skype and video-conference at night. Maybe he can alter his schedule a bit to cut back on the travel. This may not be a discussion he will understand yet, especially if he is like my H was...not "getting" it yet.

Two - I recommend doing things at home. That way it's not independent behavior so much but rather making yourself a little more interesting. You don't want to encourage the idea of doing your own thing...you want to entice him by not being at his beck and call (such a game when I explain it). But even more than that, you have to truly believe that you are going to figure out and pursue things that make YOU happy and if he comes along, great. If not, you'll still be reaching for your goals.

That's why I said it was sort of a Plan B (not really). I kind of went pseudo-dark with him...quit doting, quit hanging, quit catering...and if he tried to talk relationship, I shut it down nicely. Basically, I forced myself into a place where my happiness could depend on me more and on him less. It's crazy how it worked.

MS

Try at home first. It's much cheaper.

If you find yourself still following him around, then do some stuff out of the house where it won't be so tempting.

DO NOT feel bad. It was a long while before I felt safe leaving my DH alone even long enough to go to the store, and he was doing everything I needed. Of course I still went to the store, but felt horrible about it, and what was he doing while I was gone????

So even once he's totally on board with R, it will still take you a while. It gets better, and after a few years of true R, you probably won't even think of it.

BR,

You might want to look up her school on the internet, most schools have websites, and try to find a list of teachers, often they also list emails for the teachers. Send a public service email to all of them. Does she go to church, post a public service announcement on the cork board.

God Bless
NJ

He works construction, so he's out of town M-Th (overnight), for a normal week (more if OT is needed, which it often is); sometimes he even works straight thru so he won't be home for a couple of weeks. He's the job super, so he sets the schedule and runs the guys hard to spend the least time on the road.

For example he was out of town 17/31 days in Oct.


He calls me alot (EP), but it's always superficial stuff; exp: this is what I did, this is what I'm doing, this is what I ate, etc. It's rarely good, fun talking, oh and he "hates talking on the phone". There's always "the guys" around, so he can't even have a private conversation with me.

He has made some changes, but not enough IMHO.

I've begged him to find a new job; he wants to find a new job, he wants to be in town, he hates traveling, but he also wants to continue making the $$ he makes now, and w/o travel or changing careers, it's nearly impossible. The types of jobs he's interested in doing (pipe fitter, heavy equipment operator, etc) would also require out of town travel.

When he can drive back and forth he does, but even that doesn't help me (had the ONS at the end of the work day, and came home to me that night).



I think it's been our years of independant behaviour that helped to break us down, that's why I asked. What the heck can I do at home??

I like to cook and read. I'm not into scrapbooking, it's too cold to spend time on my yard... Any ideas??


I meant to ask earlier, how's your Grandpa doing?

I can't wait until I don't even think about it anymore, but I don't want it to be a false R, either. Thanks for helping me to feel normal!

That's exactly how I've been able to find her the last 2 years. I'm going to keep my exposure plan for when/if there's a time I need it, like if contact is made. Then WHAM! She'll be horribly embarrassed, and will know that she was struck by a BR!

Cooking is good...decide to learn how to make really good bread. Then dive into it.

Reading is great...very independent.

Think about things that you've always wanted to learn how to do, but never found the time. NOW's the time. Learn how to quilt. Take up kick-boxing or yoga (use a video). Start a journal. Design your yard and research the plants you will use on the internet. Just a few ideas.

I think often about exposing the whole thing to the hospital where OW works. I would LOVE to ruin her. But at the same time, it comes back to how does it help me? And honestly, it may hurt me more than help. If she feels attacked, she may attack. At this point, she is leaving us alone.

I did put up a MySpace page "for her" at one point (only left it up there for a couple weeks), with her name, her email address (telling everyone to email her but not mention the MySpace page), her picture, some choice descriptions of her, and the song "Homewrecker" playing. I know, it's not nice but it was part of my personal therapy. I have since removed it. I kind of miss it sometimes.

About my grandfather:
My father doesn't send updates as frequently as I would like about my grandfather. But he and I (my father) went through my mom's death together and I think he may be trying to protect me from the ups and downs of the final days. We all know that he will never go home again. I guess it's just the anguish of waiting for it to be over so that we can grieve. It feels wrong to grieve while he is still alive and yet, it is inevitable, so we wait.

MS

PS...I have copies of all of my thread. I'll look for some of the days where I was working on the appreciation/independence thing and post some for you.

I'd really like to read how you dealt with the similar situation. Thank you!

Me too. I'm lurking and learning!

Advice for recovery please - my husband moved home

OK...I just looked at the posts I made during this time and it covers 7 pages in a word document...that's a bit long for a post.

I'll try to boil it down a bit and post the highlights.

8/15/08
I am realizing more and more that he is still wayward. You are right, I want to believe that he isn't. I want to believe that he is just as present in this recovery as I am. I want to believe everything he says.

The truth of the matter is, I don't. I don't trust him as far as I can throw him. And that's a tough spot to be in when you're married.

I know that I cannot change him. The anger he has is from me trying to MAKE him do things that he doesn't feel are necessary. Just like giving up an addiction...I cannot MAKE him do it. He has to see the need for himself and do it for himself.

So where does that leave me?

I work on myself. I make myself stronger. I take back the things that I willingly gave up when I became a mom and a wife. I re-define ME.

8/16/08
I know that this would bother H because he doesn't want me to continue to be "sucked into" the Marriage Builders philosophy. Of course I get that this is a threat because H is wayward still, but does it help our relationship if I do things that upset him this way? I guess what I'm wondering is if it is better to keep Marriage Builders to myself for awhile and really focus on rebuilding ME...then see what it does for H and his recovery process. He cannot unlearn the Marriage Builders concepts and maybe eventually he will decide to use them.

8/17/08
I am making a HUGE effort to avoid all emotional discussions/displays in front of him.

But he still complains that I am trying to change him and acts like the martyr who must give up everything to please me. All I want is for him to protect our marriage with his actions and not just by telling me that he will...to just "trust" him.

I feel like he's made a lot of progress and a lot of his actions show that he wants to recover, but then he just doesn't want to change his little behaviors that I feel are threatening...friendships with other females, traveling without me...

When I write down what he IS doing versus what he doesn't want to do, it seems like he's doing a lot. But it doesn't FEEL like he is.

H was home last night and he and I spent it with the kids. When they went to bed, I made the most of the time we had together. I started talking with him about my aspirations for a school. We talked about what things make me happy in work and what I am good at. We narrowed the focus a bit to where I think I have a great idea of what I want. A goal. Something to drive for. And it's ALL ME.

I am looking at myself in the mirror and trying to remember who I WAS and who I AM. I really liked that woman. I need to find her again.

One of the most important things that motivates me (probably because it is FOR my BOYS) is the idea that H is training them in how to be with their future wives. I do not want them to treat women like this. It is not acceptable.

I have been making sure that all of the decisions I made today were for ME. Granted, I needed to pick up the kids, etc. but I did what was good for me without trying to guess what H would like or not like. Even something as stupid as choosing something to wear...I didn't think "I know he likes this shirt." I put on a shirt that I like. God, how did I get so low? They say that affairs are a slippery slope...I think that self-worth can be the same way.

think I'm afraid that he may never be willing to protect our marriage again. I don't want him to be someone else, I just want him to protect me from hurting again. I guess it is MY responsibility to do that protecting first. Then, hopefully, he will follow.

I think about the expectations I have for him. They are really not asking too much. They are similar to the expectations I have in the classroom: be safe, be kind, be responsible, be respectful. If H were willing to commit to these things, then things would be good. The problem is that in the classroom I determine if the students are following these expectations. In our marriage, we both have to agree on how these expectations should be met. And right now, we don't.

No relationship talk.

That actually works to my advantage. When he started in on a discussion with me about Marriage Builders I felt really detached from it anyway. I just didn't FEEL like arguing my point with him. I knew it didn't matter what I said. He was going to think what he was going to think.

I can easily squelch those conversations...it takes effort on his part to talk about those things. I'm sure he won't initiate much.

8/19/08
This morning I sat down with my coffee and thought about what I am going to do for ME today. Haven't come up with it yet, but it's still early and I am not yet completely awake. No vehicle today so it will be a home activity.

OK. I was going to make sure to log what I did for MYSELF today.

H was home. Dinner was done. I announced I was going upstairs to take a bath. I spent an hour soaking, shaving, reading, relaxing. It was SO nice. When I got out, I continued to read for another 15 minutes...just for ME.

Yeah ME!

8/20/08
Wow. We had another peaceful night.

At one point H started to talk about something related to our relationship, and I just steered us away. We sat and talked about my school project for a long time.

I can see that H is still trying to meet my needs...conversation in particular. It is not in his nature to just sit down on the couch and invite me to talk. But this is something that he has changed since d-day and he is continuing to do so.

I don't know why I would think that H is going to change the things that he has been working on...he didn't share in my epiphany. He is just working on damage control, I think.

It's just funny to me because his efforts seem almost laughable. I know that sounds mean, but it's kind of along the lines of "too little, too late" only I haven't actually given up on the relationship. I've just put it on hiatus and H doesn't know.

He made a comment last night about how when we were dating he was begging for sex and how now I beg for it. I just responded, "I don't beg for it anymore" and changed the subject. Because I don't beg for it. If he is interested and I feel like it, then I will. But I am beyond bending down for him to just throw it in my face.

Again, he doesn't realize that there has been a shift. And I think I am just starting to realize the shift myself. I think that the key will be to not allow the shift to remove my emotional connection to him altogether. I am going to try to balance on the line between protecting me and loving him. I could see how at this moment, it would be easy to emotionally divorce from him...the anger is starting to surface.

8/21/08
OK. There has definitely been a shift in the relationship at our house. Here's what I saw last night. Now granted, H just passed his contractor's license so he was in a great mood, but it gets better.

When H got home, I was making dinner. He played with the boys while I worked on the BBQ. Every once in awhile, HE would come outside to talk to me. We ate dinner together. HE sat at the table and talked with me about life in general after the boys were all finished with their food.

After dinner, I went into the office to scrapbook (on my list, ya know). H was playing Guitar Hero with the boys (a new toy for everyone). HE came in every once in awhile to tell me how he was doing and see what I was doing. HE asked me to watch him do a song so I went into the living room. I watched for awhile and said "Wow hon. That's awesome!" and then started back into the office. He said "Hang on a sec. Don't go." So I stayed until the end of the song and then went back to scrapbooking.

We put the boys to bed. He wanted to play some more Guitar Hero. I went out to get the mail and when I came back in, he had stopped playing and was "looking" for me. I watched a little of the game and then went back to my scrapbooks. He came in regularly (after each song) and would hug me or tickle me and then go back out. I went out to watch when I was finished with the pages I was working on.

He asked me to play with him. We played for awhile...bantering back and forth. Oddly, he mentioned that a friend's neighbor caught his wife with another man and that they were probably headed for divorce. I said that I felt for the man. It is a painful experience.

At 10:30, H said he wanted to play one more song and then stop. I was ready to go to bed so that sounded good to me. We finished the song and HE started closing up the house for the night and headed upstairs. I followed along, the whole time trying to decide if I WANTED sex or not.

When I came up, he was already in bed and I got myself ready to go to sleep. When I crawled in bed, he "pounced." I honestly thought about saying that I didn't feel like it, but I DID want sexual fulfillment. He spent a long time just kissing me...passionately, deeply, romantically. At one point he stopped and said "I love you." Then we made love for the first time in two months.

When it was over, we held each other for a long time. He stroked my back and kept kissing me...things that he never does.

I think he's remembering the woman that he fell in love with. WOW. I think I am too.