I do want you feedback. How were those emails harrasing?

There is a difference between defending plesant caring emails where I asked for nothing and tried to force nothing and the things I was doing at the beginning.

There is a huge difference in my opinion.

The one I quoted was sarcastic and guilt-tripping-manipulative. Read it over and over if you need to - that is what's there.

Blow-by-blow:

You can deny all you want that the emotions I've described in bold to your email were what you intended. However, in the condition of your relationship, there is nothing else she could have read into this.

You are right, I wrote that very shortly after our call last night. I was very emotional.

I agree for the most part, but she is being very cruel by her own admission. Should we not let the ones we love know when they are hurting you? Maybe I could have done it more tactfully, and probably should not have sent an email until this morning.

Silence to cruelty, or a simple "ouch" suffices.

If you were purely only a betrayed husband and she were entirely the wayward wife, this still would not be a prescribed marriage builder response to try to educate her as to her wrongs.

Plan A is dignity, and stop love busting yourself and her!

So if she said she wouldn't reply that means she doesn't want to talk to you, right? So she didn't reply, yet you continue with:

Anyways, ill give you a call later.

Hope you had fun last night at your dinner party.

I really wish I could have been there with you and your friends for the wedding and post wedding festivities.

I would give anything just to put my arms around you and dance with you again.

Love,

I love talking to you. I miss that more than anything, just talking about our day.

I love you,

Did you get my other email? Sorry if that was too much, but I want you to know how I feel, and how sorry I am.

I hope you do call me later, that’s what I miss most. Just talking

I would like to take you out to dinner tomorrow, if you don’t have plans that is. Would that be ok?

How you can be so cruel to me, after everything we have been through.

Maybe you are not the person I think you really are.

How you can want to give the dogs up is really beyond me.

I love them like my children. I would die for them just as I would for you. They will be loved with me, you can be sure of that

I will sacrifice for them as I have done since the day we got them.

You can live your life without the burden of having to care for them. They will not be neglected.

I don’t consider them a burden, they are part of my family as much as you are or my parents are.

Don’t worry about me giving them to you parents; I will take them to my parents. I don’t want to inconvenience you or your parents.

I love you,

I HOPE TO HEAR FROM YOU, EVEN IF ITS THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT HERE.

I MISS YOU WHOLE BIG BUNCH.

LOVE,

All of the things here, whether you realize it or not, are intended to show her your martyrdom and show why she should relent and have pity on you. If you don't see that, maybe it would help you to do some reading on passive aggressive behavior. We all do it, but it's best to be able to recognize it, especially if you're not getting what you want with it. If you can get some insight into that and reach ways to interact with her that don't put her on the defensive, she may feel more comfortable speaking to you again.

If I was divorcing my husband, and I had to deal with everything you posted here within a week, I would be a nervous wreck. And I certainly wouldn't want to be near you.

I'm not against you guys getting together. I just think it needs to be in a healthier way, for both of you. Right now, she needs space. If you truly love her, you'll give her the space (as you have just said you will), and then spend that time learning and growing - both of you - so that if you try again you can do it from a stronger spot. Good luck.

Well cat, the only thing I can say is my emails, save the last one, were not hurtful in the least. They were plesant and caring.

The advice you give, is exactly opposite to what Steve says. I hate to say that, but doing nothing is not his advice.

But none of that matters to me right now, I cant interact with her because its making me worse. She has been trying to push me away the same ways she did in the past and I refuse to go back to where I was. That is not the person I will ever be again. I am much better than that. I have to take care of myself and as much as I wish she let us be a part of each others life, she is just not there.

Yes, they were pleasant and caring. In and of itself, that is fine. But in the context of her not responding to them, you're being 'told' that that is making her uncomfortable or that she just doesn't want to interact with you. Therefore, continuing to say I love you at every turn is PA.

Anyway, best wishes. I hope you find some peace.

SW, I would agree with your decision to pull back for now. While much improved from when you first decided to fight for your marriage, your communications right now are pretty heavy-handed.

Plan A for you needs to be so very delicate, more just having occasional positive interactions which showcase the changes you're making.

Even for a BS who has not been a WS, they will be most successful if they do not let out most of what they are thinking or feeling. Which is also why it's so wearing - holding in all the emotions, good and bad, that they are feeling.

Zora is completely detatched from you, true. It doesn't have to be that way forever, but such a blatant pursuit will drive her farther away right now.

If you go to Plan B right now, I think your chances of saving your M would go to nil. You haven't shown her the changes you're making, and she's not convinced of your sincerity. It's much much too soon for that, anyway. So I don't think you should go that far - only withdraw far enough that you have the strength to be 100% positive. No LB's, no AO's, no more DJ's.

The time to work on the condition of the M pre-A is when/if you're in recovery. To bring that up now wrecks everything else you've been trying to do, as well as making it sound (even here) as if you're wanting to use that to justify your A. Now, don't try to defend yourself from that - you've already clarified your position on here and that's fine. It's still damaging your chances with Zora.

If you're going to have any hope, ALL interactions need to be pleasant on your part. No R talk, no pressure, no bringing up the unpleasant past. There's time for dealing with that, and this isn't it.

Light, fluffy, caring-but-not-lovesick, is what you need to show, even if it's not what you feel. She needs to feel safe and happy while she's around you, or she's not going to want to be around you. This is why, right now, she doesn't want to be around you. The old cliche 'bull in a china shop' springs to mind.

I have every confidence that someday you two can make this work. What you're doing right now isn't going to get you where you want to be.

Well, I think I have finally turned the corner. Ive spend alot of time over the past few days examining what I was fighting for. Ive talked to my father quite a bit and just examined a lot of things with him as well as my shrink. And my father is a very good person to talk to, very religous, very down to earth, and very caring about myself and Zora. He loves her, but he is concerned for me at this time. He believes there is nothing worth fighting for. Not that there may not be some day, but right now its just time to move one. They had sent Zora an email to which she responded, and he read quite a bit into her short response.

I do love my wife, of that I have no doubt, but what I was fighting so passionatly for was not the relationship we had, maybe not ever, but the idea of what our relationship could be like if we were both fully commited. Unfortunatly that has never hapened in the past, and its probably not going to any time soon or even ever. Who knows what the future holds. I would love to see if its possible, but I honestly dont believe with everything that has happened that that chance will ever be explored. Its a shame, but its one I can live with and move on from.

The bad of the relationship over the 13 years, not just the big faux paus's, seriously outweighs the good. Not a single person that knows us would say we had a healthy relationship.
If there was something in the past that was special, maybe we would both want to fight, but the reality of the situation is it took me spending time with OW for her to decide to fight for me back, and it took her with her OM for me to want to fight for her back. We should have fought for each other before any of that.

So that being said, I feel ok again. I have felt this way for a few days, and that awful call where nasty things were said was just a reminder of they way things aways were and how we treated each other. It made us both crazy and made us both hurt each other. Neither of us want that. What is happening is for the best.

I care for her deeply. I dont want to have awful fights. I wish she had gotten me the D papers before she went away, just because its a step and I hate waiting for them, now it probably be 2 weeks at the earliest for me to get them. I think just signing them will be a huge step to moving on.

I hope we remain friendly, and maintain at least a "working" relationship through this and maybe even a friendship down the road.

With sorrow,

Silver