I would not say anything to him about it right now. Unless he seems to think he has an issue he needs to work on, he would just resent it/not believe it/dismiss it.

I never mentioned it.

H just noticed a minute ago that I hung up my thing in the bathroom a week ago. All he said was "Did you find the studs?"

In other words, did you screw it up, since you did it yourself?

I said, "Well, I found one stud."

So he said, "why can't you just ask me to do these things before you go and do it yourself?"

I said, "I DID ask you to do it."

H: "You asked me when I was in the middle of doing some work." (he was looking something up on the internet)

Me (I know, I know, bad catperson): "Well, I guess that doesn't take into account all the hours you spent sleeping that day on the couch, huh?"

H: "That's BS. You should have asked me again."

Me: I did ask you again. I asked "can you put this up today and you said yes. You didn't put it up, so the next day, I put it on the bed so you would remember that I asked you to put it up."

H: "Why didn't you just ask me again?"

Me: "Because I didn't want to nag you. Every time I ever ask you a second time to do anything, you yell at me and say I'm nagging you. So you still didn't take care of it, so I figured you weren't going to, so I did it myself."

And I left the room. He's still pouting 30 minutes later.

I know I should have been more diplomatic. I'm just tired of everything out of his mouth being a criticism of me or D18 - or everything and everyone ELSE in the world.

It's been literal hell this weekend between him and D18; we went car shopping for her and they were at each other's throats the entire weekend. I can't wait to go to work tomorrow.

Ugh. I'm sorry Cat. I don't think you were out of line with your husband, for what it's worth. As long as you didn't say it in a mean way and just stated facts, I think that you handled it rather well, actually.

Remember you cannot control everything, and how your daughter and husband get along is going to have to rest largely on their own shoulders. You can't buffer, filter, or censor their relationship forever, and your daughter is really an adult now...try to let some things go.

It's so very tempting to play the peacemaker when it's all you've done all your married life, but learning to let a lot of it go can be cathartic and liberating too. Eventually people have to be accountable for what they say and do, and leaning on those old habits of putting out other peoples' fires may border on enabling. They never feel the full impact/repercussions of their actions when they have someone else there to pick up the pieces, so sometimes...you've got to let the cards fall where they may and then let THEM pick them up...

Hope work is distracting for you tomorrow. I can relate with Monday being a day of 'rest'.

Cat, I KNOW how hard it is when the one you love acts like that. What about telling him, now while he's still like this, how it makes you feel when he's like this? The whole process, how painful, so far that you think it would be easier if he just vanished instead of having to live with a man who knowingly chooses to do this to you. He may start yelling, or who knows, so I encourage you to take whatever precautions you want, like a pair of shoes in the car and your keys in your pocket.

What about giving your anger a voice, cat? It is not okay for him to mistreat you like this!

I hope you are finding some ways to be good to yourself, cat!

I think you handled it pretty well, even with the crack about him sleeping all day. He's pouting because he tried to put you in the wrong, and you wouldn't wear it. Good for you.

God. It's been even worse, if you can believe that. D18 got off work at 7, I went to pick her up, H wanted to go cos he had been looking at other cars other than the one we put a deposit on Saturday night. He wanted her to go look at the other cars at the lot, in case she'd rather turn in the one we picked up Saturday night. Pick her up, and she had made plans to meet a friend of hers, so it was like 'ok, I like the one I have, I don't want to change, I'm happy, ok?' (now let me get to Denny's so I can meet up with Michael).

Well, that really pissed H off, because since we're putting $5000 down on her car, he feels she should be more grateful and excited about the whole process, instead of worrying about not meeting up with her friend after work. BIG fight, 30 minutes worth, we end up taking her to Denny's, then he and I fight about how the weekend went so bad, I tried to show him how he can't just make plans without telling us (he had decided to call on a customer in the middle of looking at cars, when D18 had to be at work at 4pm; we barely got her to work on time, and didn't get to finish with the cars, cos I didn't know we were going to call on one of his customers - he never tells us these things ahead of time, just springs them on us).

Anyway, we get home after she spends 30 minutes with her friend, during which H and I argue about none of us communicating well. Get home, D and I are crying, H is pouting, D goes upstairs, H is back on the computer looking up cars, I come up later to D18 and she has a meltdown about hating her father, can't wait to leave to get away from him. He told her that he was taking back the car, she didn't deserve it. I calm her down, leave, go back to work on laundry, etc. H goes up to talk to her, because he never got 'closure' - i.e., got to state his case long and hard enough so that he gets to walk away not being the bad guy. I take some of her laundry upstairs and hear them talking in her room - ok, arguing - and he's bringing up all the stuff I emailed him while he was in China, about how D18 was uncomfortable with the way he treats her and her friends.

He still has never gotten over being accused of doing anything wrong. So instead of coming to me, he goes to her. But she's giving as good as she gets. So I listen outside her door, wondering if I'm supposed to go in and defend her.

I keep hearing that I should (1) step up and be the parent and protect her from him but also that I should (2) let her deal with him on her own.

Should I go in there and stop it? I just don't know any more. I asked her tonight if she wanted me to move out with her so she can live the last 6 months of high school away from him and she said no. But I don't know if she said that because of me, because she knows our money problems, or because she really doesn't want to move.

I'm so tired of wanting to die to get away from all this. He's a good person. He doesn't deserve to be abandoned. But I don't even want to wake up any more. And the guilt over what D18 is going through makes me want to throw up.

Should I interfere? He's still up there. Usually, he'll stay until they clear everything up and are both ok, but I'm not sure she'll allow that to happen any more.

If she's hlding her ground, I'd leave her to it.

*hugs*

sending fast in case yer waiting for a reply...

Thanks, Jayne. I finally couldn't take it any more, after an hour, and I was about to go in her room (he had closed the door), when he came out. She swore she was ok. He spent the rest of the night looking up cars, and I went to bed.

She's still having sleeping problems, keeps waking up. I'm going to have to take her back to her doctor; the last time we went for this, the doctor kind of just treated her like she was being a hypochondriac - teenager wanting attention, and prescribed over the counter melatonin, but it's not helping. Think I'll switch doctors. That was her pediatrician, anyway, and she said she doesn't want to go to her any more, now that she's 'an adult,' lol.

Cat...I think it's important to remember that all kids and their parents go through rough times as they're growing up and spreading their wings and about to leave the nest. I don't think your situation is altogether unique in reference to how they are getting along. Some of this is normal, regardless of your husband's issues. Really. She is not the first teenager to say she hates a parent and can't wait to leave home to get away.

I believe in time a lot of this will iron itself out, though possibly after she leaves home. After that she will not have to live with him and they will likely get along better because they will be with each other only in small bits. I think then they will appreciate each other more.

Some personalities just don't mesh well if they have to spend great quantities of time together, such as would be required with living together.

I know my relationship with my mother is like this. She's a wonderful person, kind, giving, but not the easiest person to live with day in and day out. Yet, I did not fully appreciate her nearly as much as when I left home and could start appreciating her in smaller quantities of time. I also don't think she understood how capable I actually was either, until I was out on my own and was able to prove myself.

Cat...you're in the home stretch here with your daughter and dealing with their relationship in this particular setting with her living at home. Consider the feasibility (or not) of her moving out after graduation and living on campus. Research and try to find a way for her to gain some independence either way. I believe once she leaves home, there will be more peace in your house, and I don't mean that it's her fault; that's not what I mean. Just the overall atmosphere will change, and it could very well be replaced with appreciation on both sides.

Because you have an only child, their relationship may be well...too enmeshed? Is that fair to say? Your husband seems to have a whole lot invested in his relationship with her, which to some extent is normal. I just think she's suffocating, to tell you the truth.

Sooly, you're right, that's exactly what's happening. He'd be perfectly happy if the three of us never interact with another person again. I'm not really sure what he's expecting when she goes to college next fall.

I know what they're doing is normal, I've even told both of them that. It's just that I can't stop combining their stress with my guilt over not standing up to him years ago so that he wouldn't be like this any more. Oh well, what's done is done.

Well...my point is that you have to give a little here, Cat...Some of how he is acting IS average and not completely over the top.

It's just hard to differentiate how much of it is excessive.

That's why I'm thinking maybe it would be best for both of them, for all 3 of you, if she is allowed to move out. It would be painful at first, but it might be what is best for her. How do you feel about that?

And also, there is nothing saying that had you stood up to him you could have prepared him, curbed his behavior, etc. for what he's going through now with your daughter.

Some people can be helped; some cannot.

I know you're right. I wasn't trying to keep them from fighting, I just wanted to step in and explain to him that she needs space; she wasn't even allowed to go to the mall without us until this past spring. I just meant that it hurts to watch them, because I place so much of the blame on myself.

She's going away to college next August. And she's considering medical school, so she's basically gone for good this year.

Not gone for good, Cat...she'll be back now and then, for the holidays, etc. and it will give you and your husband an opportunity to rediscover what it was like just the two of you and possibly help you draw some conclusions and make some decisions about your future too. It can be a good thing- a hard thing at first, but a good thing too. Buffers can be good in a lot of circumstances, but your daughter was not brought into this world to be a buffer, but of course you already know that.

Maybe after the car issue is settled and the holidays are over, you can start getting her excited with buying this and that for her dorm/apartment. It may help keep her spirits up and give her something to look forward to.

That's a good idea, Sooly!

I wanted to buy her a hope chest, but she's not a romantic or sentimental person, so it didn't really mean anything to her.

Maybe we can do a college chest.

Is she going to dorm or try and find an apartment?

Dorm. They've got some really good ones there. We did the tour last year.

God. It's been even worse, if you can believe that. D18 got off work at 7, I went to pick her up, H wanted to go cos he had been looking at other cars other than the one we put a deposit on Saturday night. He wanted her to go look at the other cars at the lot, in case she'd rather turn in the one we picked up Saturday night. Pick her up, and she had made plans to meet a friend of hers, so it was like 'ok, I like the one I have, I don't want to change, I'm happy, ok?' (now let me get to Denny's so I can meet up with Michael).

Cat, how did you feel about this? Do you feel like you've seen enough to be comfortable putting this amount on this car?

How do you feel about you two putting this amount down? Grateful to be able to make her life easier this way? Scared that your H will use this to say she "owes" him? Nervous that she'll have trouble paying insurance and gas when she's at school without taking a part time job that will take her away from her studies? Glad that she will have a safer car with you and H contributing? Anxiety about how this affects you and H, when you already have considerable debt? Or something totally different?


Well, that really pissed H off, because since we're putting $5000 down on her car, he feels she should be more grateful and excited about the whole process, instead of worrying about not meeting up with her friend after work. BIG fight, 30 minutes worth, we end up taking her to Denny's, then he and I fight about how the weekend went so bad, I tried to show him how he can't just make plans without telling us (he had decided to call on a customer in the middle of looking at cars, when D18 had to be at work at 4pm; we barely got her to work on time, and didn't get to finish with the cars, cos I didn't know we were going to call on one of his customers - he never tells us these things ahead of time, just springs them on us).

How did you feel here, cat? Mad at yourself for getting into the car with him? Mad at yourself for not protecting yourself? Angry at him for saying one thing and doing another without asking you? Something else?

Anyway, we get home after she spends 30 minutes with her friend, during which H and I argue about none of us communicating well. Get home, D and I are crying, H is pouting, D goes upstairs, H is back on the computer looking up cars, I come up later to D18 and she has a meltdown about hating her father, can't wait to leave to get away from him. He told her that he was taking back the car, she didn't deserve it. I calm her down, leave, go back to work on laundry, etc. H goes up to talk to her, because he never got 'closure' - i.e., got to state his case long and hard enough so that he gets to walk away not being the bad guy. I take some of her laundry upstairs and hear them talking in her room - ok, arguing - and he's bringing up all the stuff I emailed him while he was in China, about how D18 was uncomfortable with the way he treats her and her friends.

He still has never gotten over being accused of doing anything wrong. So instead of coming to me, he goes to her. But she's giving as good as she gets. So I listen outside her door, wondering if I'm supposed to go in and defend her.[/

Do you have an agreement with the IC that you can call her after hours when you need to? Would this have warranted a call? What was the plan to address this? Has he stopped the comments and the touching? Does this make you mad? Have you two discussed this with the counselor, how you have handled this so far, and how you plan to handle it going forward?

I keep hearing that I should (1) step up and be the parent and protect her from him but also that I should (2) let her deal with him on her own.

What is the plan you have thought through with your IC? What kinds of situations get repsonse 1, and what kinds get repsonse 2?

What about calling a time out? Asked them to write out their feelings and discuss it in IC together?

Cat, my take on it is that these are growth experiences. You can check your plan, check your intent, and act accordingly. If you step on toes, you can make amends and try something that fits you better next time. Maybe your plan doesn't cover these areas, you can fill that in.

Should I go in there and stop it? I just don't know any more. I asked her tonight if she wanted me to move out with her so she can live the last 6 months of high school away from him and she said no. But I don't know if she said that because of me, because she knows our money problems, or because she really doesn't want to move.

Wowo, I forget how old your daughter is. I think you need to be the parent, the leader. It's on her to ask for help for a different course if that's what she wants. It sounds like she trusts your leadership, though.

I'm so tired of wanting to die to get away from all this. He's a good person. He doesn't deserve to be abandoned. But I don't even want to wake up any more. And the guilt over what D18 is going through makes me want to throw up.

What is under the depression, cat? What is it telling you? Is it a deep inability to express anger, like myschae talked about on her thread?

You can leave today, cat, but you don't. This is your choice today, to stay. Just for today. Do you accept this choice? The wanting to die sounds from here like you are not accepting this choice. That you wish for other ones. Is that right? They are there. What are the obstacles? Do you want to plan to overcome them?

Should I interfere? He's still up there. Usually, he'll stay until they clear everything up and are both ok, but I'm not sure she'll allow that to happen any more.

What is your heart, your plan, your intent telling you?

((((Cat))))

Cat...I would call the college and find out what's allowable in the dorm - a television, mini fridge? Find out, and then a set of towels, sheets. There are things that you could slowly get her as they go on sale - even a mass layaway for her so that you two could go on a mini spree. A good bonding experience and would show support for her growing up and becoming independent. Actually, maybe what would be better is to make a list and have your husband take her. It could say a lot from his end if he could be part of that.

Hi ears.

We're using our income tax refund (part of it, about a fifth) to put the money down, so it's not exactly hurting us in the pocketbook. But I am good about buying a new car, since I won't be worrying if she got a used one that was having problems; don't want her stranded away from home.

I was just feeling frustrated because I know exactly what was happening, but couldn't figure out how to derail it. Basically, these grand gestures are his way of showing love - via money. But he's super sentimental - he gets in his head this great vision of how the recipient of his gift, whatever it may be, will be so grateful they'll shower him with gratitude and admiration for just hours and hours. She did great, came out of work and saw the car and ran and hugged it, then hugged H. But then we went home, and she went back to business as usual. So he didn't get any more strokes. Since it wasn't really the color she wanted, he wanted to keep looking and find the right one; but she's not like that - once she makes up her mind, she doesn't want to think about it any more; she was fine with the one she had. I kept telling him that, but it wasn't 'perfect' so he couldn't let it go. So when she got of work Sunday and wanted to see a friend, it was spoiling the 'perfect' magic of him doing more grand gestures for her.

I've never talked to IC about calling her. I'll ask her. We don't have a specific plan. I guess we can work on that next time.

My depression? It's telling me I'm mad about choosing this life, about being stuck on pins and needles my whole life. Not getting a normal husband. That I just want to wake up without preparing myself for another day of stress.

I keep working on my budget, it's basically what's keeping me going, knowing that if I get through it, I'll have a way out if I want it.

Sooly, that's another great idea. Thanks.

We're using our income tax refund (part of it, about a fifth) to put the money down, so it's not exactly hurting us in the pocketbook. But I am good about buying a new car, since I won't be worrying if she got a used one that was having problems; don't want her stranded away from home.

I'm glad to hear, cat, ythat youa ll ahve a plan that you're enthusiastic about here.


I was just feeling frustrated because I know exactly what was happening, but couldn't figure out how to derail it. What Basically, these grand gestures are his way of showing love - via money. But he's super sentimental - he gets in his head this great vision of how the recipient of his gift, whatever it may be, will be so grateful they'll shower him with gratitude and admiration for just hours and hours. She did great, came out of work and saw the car and ran and hugged it, then hugged H. But then we went home, and she went back to business as usual. So he didn't get any more strokes. Since it wasn't really the color she wanted, he wanted to keep looking and find the right one; but she's not like that - once she makes up her mind, she doesn't want to think about it any more; she was fine with the one she had. I kept telling him that, but it wasn't 'perfect' so he couldn't let it go. So when she got of work Sunday and wanted to see a friend, it was spoiling the 'perfect' magic of him doing more grand gestures for her.

Cat, this was your question last night, right? Your IC gave you the charge, the task, to derail this. I forgot the name of the other poster, who pointed out that you can't change anyone else's behavior but your own. That it is an exercise in futility and frustration to accept responsibility for someone else's actions.

But I totally get what the IC is saying about DD17 needing outside protection from unnacceptable behavior. Cat, this is a really rough road, and I don't hear you with a lot of tools to choose from. Actually, I didn't hear ANY of the things that you were choosing between last night. What were they?

Have you ever read Boundaries in Marriage? There are a lot of tools listed there. Like getting outside support, like IC, also getting help from family, your church, removing your presence, verbally observing what you see.


I've never talked to IC about calling her. I'll ask her. We don't have a specific plan. I guess we can work on that next time.

Is this something you'd be enthusiastic about asking about? Or are there other things more pressing?


My depression? It's telling me

• I'm mad about choosing this life,
  You did the best you could with what you knew. You are working from the inside to change it. Are you enthusiastic about this? Or angry?
• about being stuck on pins and needles my whole life.
  Again, this is temporary. What is your plan to change this in the present?
• Not getting a normal husband.
  Could be temporary, too . No, I shouldn't joke about that. But again, this is a choice, one you're not stuck with. Do you feel better having a plan?
• That I just want to wake up without preparing myself for another day of stress.
  Isn't this temporary and a choice, too? What about starting your day over again, cat?

I keep working on my budget, it's basically what's keeping me going, knowing that if I get through it, I'll have a way out if I want it.

And you've made amazing progress!

How would you feel about declaring personal bankruptcy? I'm glad that you're blooming where you're planted, cat. I'm not trying to say that I think you SHOULD divorce your H and declare personal bankruptcy. I'm totally trust your judgment, cat. I trust that you are exactly where you need to be, doing exactly what you need to do. I am just saying, as a backup plan, would that be acceptable to you? Or is the only plan you are enthusiastic about to stay until you've paid off your joint debts?