Perhaps our friend "Hose A" can get some insights from this about why having a female "just a friend but I have strong feelings" in the wings can be a problem.<P>This morning I was awakened at 3 AM by my H, angrily saying "If you're going to stop snoring NOW, I'm going to scream."<P>I often have bad dreams in which he says hateful things, but this was real. We both have a tendency to snore. We've both been down with cold/flu bugs; him worse than me. I've learned how to somehow "get around" his snoring, he can't "get around" mine. <P>I got up, asked what was wrong, his answer: "Nothing." Finally I get him to tell me: He says he's been trying to get me to stop snoring for three hours and now he has to get up and he's going on one hour of sleep.<P>Major guilt trip for me, pushes ALL my buttons, I needn't go into what they are here, many of you already know.<P>I went into the downstairs bedroom and shut the door because I felt a "rejection panic attack" coming on. -- armed with the yellow pages so I could find an otolaryngologist that I can make an appointment with to do something about the snoring. He comes down, he's angry now. He insists that I go back to bed. He fusses at me for looking up doctors. Clearly this is feeding his angry, because the situation begins to escalate quickly into one of our anger/cry/more anger/more cry episodes. I managed to keep some of my composure, but obviously not enough of it.<P>Finally I decide it's better to do what he says rather than inflame him further. I go back into the bedroom upstairs and shut the door. 3 hours later, it's time for me to get up. I haven't slept much. He doesn't come down till it's time for him to leave for work; he's still angry.<P>Now, bear in mind that if I'm snoring, I'm ASLEEP and I'm not doing this with malice aforethought, for the sole purpose of keeping him up. Bear in mind also that I'm a pretty light sleeper, and it's not hard to wake me up. He's always said he doesn't want to wake me up, and I've told him if that's what it takes, to do it.<P>So how can he say he's been trying for three hours? It sure seems to me that he WANTED to be angry with me. Whatever.<P>So...here we are. It's the day after. And I don't know how long he's going to be angry with me -- probably at least 24 hours, until he gets some sleep. And he'll probably be even angrier when I tell him I've made a doctor's appointment.<P>It's a no-win. Clearly snoring is a lovebuster, albeit an unintentional, even unconscious one. So I'm willing to do something about it by seeking medical treatment. So why should he be angry? But he will.<P>OK, Hose, this is where you come in. My H has this "friend", this dragon lady who's been chasing him for over a year. We know he has history of running to her when he's mad at me. I know just as God made little green apples that I'm going to get an E-mail today telling me that he'll be home late. And he'll go to her and ***** about how he couldn't sleep because I was snoring, thus feeding her fantasies about how awful I am to live with and how much better off he'd be with her.<P>I cater to this man every day of my life. If he's sick, I take care of him. If he leaves the lights on in the car and runs down the battery, I take care of it. If we're both sick, I still take care of him. If he locks his keys in the car, I go bring him an extra set. If he comes home from work upset, I listen. If he needs a backrub, I give him a backrub. If he's out of work, I reassure him. But if I'm not perfect 100% of the time, he goes running to her for solace. It doesn't matter if they're "just friends" or not -- the fact remains that he goes running to her for solace when he's upset with me. And that makes me feel like there's a Sword of Damocles over my head every day of my life, that someday, I'll do that one teensy thing, that one little transgression that will drive him over the edge and make him run.<P>And that's why even "just friends, there's no sex" is a threat. <P>

Dear D&C -- I think it's obvious that Dr. H's principles don't work all the time. It is far from automatic that if we concentrate on meeting our spouse's emotional needs that they will find us irresistible and forget about the other person. Dr. David Schnarch, author of the book Passionate Marriage and who has a web site at <A HREF="http://www.passionatemarriage.com" TARGET=_blank>www.passionatemarriage.com</A> says that we all have a certain capacity for intimacy and that, as we go along with our spouses in life, we are called upon to grow as we each become more important and indispensable to the other. Many of us did not bargain for the increasing levels of intimacy that are demanded of us, not even so much by our spouse, but by the marital system. When the level of intimacy required of us exceeds our capacity to give, many people avoid going through the growing pains to deepen the commitment to our spouse and the marriage by withdrawing. Sometimes there is some sort of affair, sometimes not. Most of us get something we didn't bargain for in marriage. Because marriage, like everything else in life, must grow or die, we are increasingly called upon to give up our self-centered attitudes and immaturity for the sake of our spouse and the marriage itself. By withdrawing, we don't have to self confront and grow. Many times the allure of the OP is that they feed our narcissistic tendencies and do not challenge us to grow up - at least not in the beginning stages. <P>Does any of this resonate with you?

Murray:<P>Yup. I have Schnarch's book, though I haven't really read it yet. H doesn't know I have it, so I have to read on the sly...and I don't have much time for leisure reading.<P>Yeah, I think H has more than a soupcon of narcissism to his nature. I think because I HAVE catered to him so much, he hasn't grown up. But don't you think that in a house with a second bedroom, waiting 3 hours and not waking me up is a tad passive-aggressive? PS -- he also threw a tantrum in the second bedroom and threw everything on my dressing table on the floor.<P>I give up. She can have him.

You know something, Dazed?<P>I think your H enjoys having you jump through the hoops. It's like he figures that you are so afraid he will be with the OW that you will do anything to keep him from running to her. That's why he won't give up his "friendship" with her; it's his "control" mechanism.<P>His anger over your snoring was way out of line, IMO. He's already in control of your waking hours; now he wants to control you in your sleep?? A reasonable man would have simply moved to the guest room.<P>Dazed, I admire your persistence in Plan Aing your H, but he seems to be taking advantage of your insecurities over the OW. He may not be having an "affair" with her, but it looks as though he is using the threat of an affair and your insecurity over this "friendship" to manipulate you.<P>So, I wouldn't worry about his being angry about your going to the doctor, if that's what you want to do. I just don't see how you can live the rest of your life catering to his every whim out of fear and not getting anything back from him. Are you ever going to be really happy with him?<P>Your H needs to grow up. Yes, he might run to the OW, but would she put up with the crap you've put up with for so long? I don't think so....<P>Just some food for thought. Take care of yourself for a change.<BR>

Hi Dazed,<P>I know your husband and mine are alot alike as far as maturity levels. This is something my husband might of done if something been bothering him for days, weeks, etc. and not spoken to me about it. Then he explodes for seems like no reason or little reason. Trying to talk to him to get him to tell me what's wrong is like pulling teeth (I just give up sometimes). He is getting better. <P>Was there an argument between you to before this happened? Maybe pressures at work are bothering him? Sounds like he's really upset inside about an issue and it's showing it's ugly head this way. I try to tell myself he's just upset and doesn't know how to communicate with me so that's why he's reacting this way and I've been trying to not take it "personnally", I know it's hard, but it does help.<P>I know when I was with the OM, I went off on my husband for little things and critized him for everything (because the OM was perfect), do you really think it's the OW on his mind?

Dear D&C -- His behavior was completely out of line and probably passive agressive, etc. Just seems like he'll do anything not to confront his abject selfishness and be more committed to and intimate with you. That's the way I see it anyway. It's so hard to do, but you've got to make some intelligent moves motivated out of love. You're being called upon to find strength within yourself right now and it's hard. It's hard to find the strength to want your spouse when they clearly do not want you in the same way. I'm having a hard time finding and holding onto my own inner strength myself and I end up losing it way too often. One of our counselors said that she seems to be of the attitude that I am obligated to stay in the marriage no matter what, but that she is under no obligation to do what she needs to make things better. But, just because one of us wants the marriage more and one less (as is the case in almost all marriages), doesn't mean that those of us that are the "high desire partner" are contributing to the health of the marriage all that much. No matter what, each of us is called to become a healthier and stronger person within ourself. And that is very, very tough! Unfortunately, it's the only clear shot we have at getting the marriage we want and, to top it off, there's no guarantee it will happen. We will certainly get stronger as we continue to move in that direction and that is good. Whether the marrige survives is another thing entirely.<p>[This message has been edited by Murray (edited October 18, 1999).]

Hi Dazed, <P>You hit on a few things that we certainly share in common. My W and your H are a pair. <P>She revealed a few love busters that I commit againbst her this weekend that I didn't know where love busters. She said "Why is it that when I say I need a new hair dryer, you go out and get me one? You know sometimes, when I say stuff like that, I don't really want one." Of course I was a little dazed and confused by that. Previous to the affair i got "You always ignore me why I say I want/need something!" Ugh. <P>I thought this was like the Freud quote I read "I have studied women for 30 years and I still don't know what they want." That's me. <P>My wife has rekindled her relationship with the OM to be "just friends". Yeah right. While I think the physical is no longer occuring (so far) the emotional is there. He's perfect. I'm not. He has no kids, we have plenty. he has a nice full head of hair, I'm thinning. His poop doesn't stink, mine does. Ugh. <P>I do all the thing s you do for your H. and yet I am not my wife's best friend. I give her the 15+ hours a week, and still I can not seem to break this emotional bond that they have. Our marraige is better than it was a year ago, but as you once said, I want a marriage with ALL the trimmings. you know, my wife isn't the easiest person to live with. She certainly has her faults. Why is it some of us are willing to live with those faults and others aren't. Don't our spouses get tired of living like this too?<P>My fear is that our marriage has peaked. I meet financial needs, fatherly needs, non-sexual touch needs, occassional sex needs, conversational needs, friendship (not best friendship) needs. That's it. No real initmacy. Not many of my needs get met. I don't know. Sometimes I wish that sword would go a head and do its thing. <P>I going to keep trying. It's almost if if this is a contest to see who is going to give up first. <P>Don't think I'm any help here - sorry.<P>SHA

Boy can I identify with you. Only hubby's woman in wings is on internet. Found out he's been *****ing to her for years about stuff at home. Wonder if I ever get any credit?? I, too, snore and am having surgery to correct the problem. It will benefit me too since I suffer with terrible sinus problems. As far as internet babe, there's always an excuse for why/what he is doing. I too do everything for this man and the family. He reads paper, and plays on internet. Occasionally grass cutting duties, but that's on a tractor! Can't be too strenuous. But I love him very much so I hang in there.

Well, as far as my life over the last year goes, this was a pretty empowering day. I spent most of the day in a state of anger at my H for his selfishness, narcissism, and passive-aggressiveness, which allowed me to hold myself together long enough to get through a day which involves doing a very important demo in front of the CEO of a very important client.<P>I actually managed to get an appt. at the otolaryngologist for after work. Tonight I am sleeping in the guest room because I am doing a sleep study to test for sleep apnea.<P>After being as cruel and hateful as he's ever been in 15 years together, H explains himself as follows: "This is nothing new. You've been snoring for years. I snore too. 99% of the time, I'm able to make you stop. But last night you wouldn't stop."<P>So the answer is to say hateful things to me in the room to DELIBERATELY TRY TO WAKE ME SO I HEAR YOU, after trashing the guest room?<P>I didn't want to come home tonight; honestly I didn't. Frankly, he makes me sick. He's not even man enough to apologize. He helped me make dinner (grilling -- "man's work") -- big f*cking deal. Then 15 minutes of TV and off to sleep. No apologies, no acknowledgement that he was out of line.<P>And you know what? I don't give a rats *ss any more if he wants to go running to her. I truly don't. I'm tired of putting up with his sh*t. I do everything for this man, and all he does is treat me with disrespect, take me for granted, and act like I'm his f*cking parent.<P>I've had it. I truly have. If she wants him, let her have him. She won't last a week.<P>I'm glad I'm sleeping alone tonight. I might spit on him otherwise. I've been crying nonstop since I got home -- except when I'm in his presence. He sees crying as manipulative. So I can't do it in front of him. But as soon is his back is turned, the water works start. I can't help it.<P>Thanks for letting me rant.

Dear Dazed -- I feel badly for you. Your day didn't end up sounding quite as empowering as it started off sounding like it might. The one that wants the marriage the most and works the hardest on it is the most vulnerable to getting hurt. Sometimes the only solace I get is that I'd rather be like me and risk getting hurt than to be myopic like her and not try to make things better. Does that make sense?

Hey D & C,<P>Hope you can get a decent nights sleep tonight - that's first and foremost! <P>I hear you about the sorta, kinda, Huh?, lovebusters. I think we used to call them "buttons" and a spouse who's been around awhile sure knows how to push them. <P>I just feel for you, and wanted to let you know.<P>BTW, as a life-long asthmatic, I too snore - egad!! Look at all us woman snorers!!!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 19, 1999).]

Dazed,<BR>What a day while I was gone!<P>It was obviously inappropriate for your H to display those behaviors.<P>However, you can not assume he went running to OW. <P>He can behave badly even without the OW involved. I remember he started contacting OW after a "bad spell" before, but that does not mean he does that every time you have a cross word.<P>Leave the Dragon Lady out of this equation and take you H on for the merits of his own behaviors that you can prove because you experienced them rather than muddy the situation up with the unknown.<P>By the way, I've been snoring lately (usually don't) and H told me he has been turning me over and lightly shaking me. Don't remember a thing. He's the light sleeper and I'm convinced he has a sleep disorder, which he doesn't like when I mention. You know...it's all because he can't get enough sleep around here...nothing wrong with him. <P>Glad you are angry enough to feel empowered.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Dazed: SNORP. It works for me and it's over the counter. I snarl all night long like a mountain lion. It can get so loud that my H taped me one night and played it back for me the next day. When I heard the tape, I laughed and said, "That isn't me...that's some old man!" H said, "It's you, listen" Then I heard me sigh and cough. I coulda died.<P>The behavior your H is displaying is so typical of someone who is pushing someone away. You sound as though you are describing my H when he was involved with the OW and afterwards when he went through withdrawal for five months. It also sounds like my H a couple weeks ago when I am sure he was drinking again. He's a mean drunk who despises me at a drop of a hat for the smallest infraction, real or imagined. The problem is is that he is such and accomplished drinker that often I am not aware of whether or not he is drunk or just tired, unless he gets abusive and exceedingly cruel. Does your H have a problem with alcohol?<BR>I know how you feel when you just get so sick of it and it just isn't worth it anymore. It comes and goes. Catnip<BR>

FHL:<P>No, he wasn't drinking with PSBFH last night when I got home, he was asleep...he went in early, so he came home early.<P>But I can no longer live my life in fear that any little transgression will send him off to her. If he chooses to do that, I will stay strong until I have to confront, and then it's right to Plan B.<P>catnip:<P>My H obviously has intimacy problems. I don't think it's a situational "pushing away", I think it's his narcissism -- "Me, me, me, my problems, my needs," a complete inability to have empathy with anyone else. (Except when PSBFH's cat died...then he was grief stricken.)<P>What bothers me the most is that a) by the time he got home, he'd recast this as just "usually I can make you stop, but this time I couldn't," and b) that it was no big deal. Oh, I'm sure he was frustrated. There have been times when he's snored so loudly that I wanted to bash his head in with a claw hammer just to make him shut up. But I haven't. But when he knows I'm a light sleeper, to come into the room and say what he said in a stage whisper was completely uncalled for. Mean and hateful, and I wonder why. He calls it "frustration." I wonder.<P>I feel like you guys who are post-discovery. I want contrition, dammit! I want an acknowledgement that he was an a**hole. I know he knows he was (especially the trashing the guest room and leaving all my eye pencils on the floor for me to pick up), but I want to hear him SAY it.<P>At any rate, he left early again today. Good. I don't want to see him. I didn't sleep well last night, because of this damn sleep study cannula, and I think I'm coming down with this bug again. Not that he'll give a rats' *ss.

Hi Dazed,<P>I just wanted to say how sorry I am. <P>I feel so bad for you and how much your hurting.<P>How about just taking a little break tonight, go out to dinner with a friend, don't do any housework, then try to go to sleep early. I know you shouldn't ignore the issue but maybe you could use "me" time.

Dazed,<P>I can hear how frustrated you are. I have had my moments of feeling that I wish my H would pack up and take his show on the road if he is so dissatisfied with everything I do. I fantasize about how quiet, peaceful and non-stressful life would be if I wasn't worrying every day that I am violating some "rule" of his. For instance, he always wants me to wear tight clothes and I have always loved loose clothes since I was a toddler (a LONG time ago ). We argue about this most mornings.<P>My H snores like a freight train and it used to wake me up all the time. I was so angry because it was always ME who had to get up and move from our comfy bed if I wanted to sleep. I felt violated and put-upon. Finally, I got practical and bought some of those foam ear plugs at the drug store. End of problem. I have gotten to the point that I can put them in if I wake up from his snoring and fall back asleep immediately. (Although since I have been taking antidepressants I rarely wake up, even if he is snoring)<P>Tell your H to get some ear plugs and let you sleep! <BR>

Do any of you ever wish your spouse would show you something in the way YOU want rather than the way that's comfortable for THEM?<P>Yesterday H calls me at the office at 6: "What do you want to do for dinner. Just let me know what you want and when you're coming home, and I'll have it ready when you get home."<P>This from a guy who usually comes home, has a snack, then waits for me to get home to decide what we're having.<P>I know the subtext is "I know I was an a**hole last night. Let me make it up to you."<P>Problem is, I don't want a pizza. I want contrition, an apology, and a VERBAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT HE WAS WRONG.<P>Is that so much to ask? Apparently so. But it bugs me, particularly when I felt I had to ask where he wanted me to sleep last night.<P>Yeah, I know. Being right is the booby prize. But I resent that he's allowed to get angry at me for nothing; for snoring when I'm fighting a cold, but I have to just sit and take it.<P>

Dazed,<BR>It was insightful for you to see your H's dinner offer as an olive branch.<P>If you follow any of the ideas in that book about Love languages, you may see that a difference in how you feel or express love. Since your H loves you to wait on him for the most part, his may be acts of service and he is extending to you.<P>You would like more verbal communication. The problem is that's now your H's way...plus he is lousy at it.<P>So he might feel like he apologized by you don't because you didn't hear it.<P>If it were me (and I'm probibly a little more direct in my communications with H than you because my H does not take offense) I'd tell H how much I appreciated dinner. I'm glad that tensions were eased. I would restate that since snoring is a problem that you are actively working on answers. Then I would say "I felt hurt when you woke me up, your voice sounded mean. My snoring was not an attempt to bug you. Please feel free to wake me up, but please do not wait until you are so angry. I'm still feeling a little wounded from the tone of your voice." Then listen. If you don't get a verbal apology, then maybe you at least got your message across.

Did that already. Told him the following night that it's very upsetting to be awakened in the middle of the night by an angry spouse, when I don't know what I did, and when he tells me, that it's something I couldn't possibly have known about because I was asleep.<P>Last night I asked him where he wanted me to sleep, and he took great umbrage that I even asked.<P>A**hole.<P>I just get so tired of having to be understanding and diplomatic with him all the time, while he can sh*t on me as much as he wants to. I'm scared to go to sleep now.<P>And now my medical plan is changing to a more managed care plan, so who knows if I can even get treatment for it.

He may not have "heard" you the first time. Did you have it written in neon? That may not help.<P>Some important points bear repeating in a nonthreatening matter-of-fact "I" message type of way.