Giirrrrlllll, what are you doin awake???

Ok, so the appointment is with Steve, at 8:30 in the morning. This should give enough time to take the kids to school and then make it back home to call. I'll have to find out if the carpet guys would be arriving that early, hopefully not. I could always drive somewhere and talk on my cell phone in the car, except my cell phone didn't survive the blizzard.

I didn't make it earlier cus I didn't want to worry in the back of my mind about getting the kids to school. I didn't want it later because I figured that might still be early enough that H could participate and just go to work a bit later if he didn't have an early meeting.

Now, do I tell H about the call, and how do I approach it? He is away on a trip until about midnight tonight. Unless it snows really bad again and he gets stuck somewhere. Even if he makes it all the way to the nearest airport, that's a couple towns over and 45 minutes away.

But, assuming he gets all the way back home: I have to pick up the kids and grab some dinner then bring them with me for my evening class. We'll prolly get home between 8 and 9. I'll put the kids to bed and then try to straighten up a bit. I'm sure the messy house has really been bothering him. In all honesty I don't know how much I can get done before I get too tired. But I was gonna finish doing laundry and dishes, finish the shelf paper in the kitchen and bathrooms upstairs (I'm almost done) and maybe wipe down the counters and the dining table and sweep the floors. How does that sound?

It may to over-optimistic but I was hoping to arrange the kids' room with moving their shelves for toys in and arranging their clothes into the drawers etc, and possibly arranging the papers into some sort of order... without moving in any more desks or filing cabinets or shelves. That's about all that can be done before the carpet is installed. Does anyone have any suggestions?

As far as telling H, I'd just say 'oh, by the way, I have scheduled a conference call with SH for tomorrow morning. I'm having too much trouble dealing with everything, and I really need a dose of forward-thinking advice. Do you want to sit in with me? It's at 8:30; I'll be taking it in the kitchen.'

As far as your house, here's what I do. I prioritize everything that needs to be done according to 'has to' (be done); 'needs to'; and 'would be nice to'. Do all the has to's first. If you still have time, do the needs to's. So on.

Like dishes have to be done, as does putting away laundry. Cleaning out cabinets or organizing papers are a 'would be nice to' so it will wait until I'm feeling good enough to tackle it.

And don't forget to slip in something special for H, like a plate of his favorite cookies waiting by his easy chair for when he gets home.

LOL, it was 9.45am when I wrote, I was not only awake, I had been to work already

I've been re-reading the beginning of my thread. It seems I haven't learned anything. It seems I was doing a better job of at least attempting POJA, and of applying the Rule of Protection (don't do things to hurt your spouse) back then. I even was learning to not do things with an expectation of reciprocation.

So what happened? Apparently I *do* have expectations of reciprocation. How can you not? To not expect any reciprocation, isn't that just an eternal Plan A, or even worse a Plan Doormat?

I'm so tired. Assuming all went well with his flight he'll prolly be home in a bit over an hour, and I still have a load of laundry to fold and another to dry and fold, a load of dishes to put away and the counters and table to wipe. And a few papers to tidy.

ETA: And he's likely to be even more tired than I am. He had to get up a couple hours earlier than me, and he worked all day and then flew and now has to drive 45 minutes to get home tonight.

I had to yell at the kids to get them to stop sword fighting and get in bed. HOW are you supposed to parent without yelling, when they can't hear you over their yelling unless you yell? The final straw was when I was trying to show them how I thought they could start keeping their papers in the desk drawers we moved into their room, and DS6b was shaking his light saber in my face. Who knew in 1977 how annoying I'd find light sabers in 2008???

I feel like the mother of all those boys including the twin boys on Desperate Housewives. It seems everyone else here has nice quiet kids who give them foot rubs. How'd you manage that??? Is it that y'all all have girls??? Did I mention I wanted one girl? It isn't my fault I got two boys.

I've been reading a lot the past 24 hours. I have lots of thoughts but not much energy to type.

Oh here's one thought: thanks cat for the suggestion about leaving him something nice out. That's the sort of thing he does when he's being nice. I'm not good at that sort of thing at all. That's prolly a way that I've fallen short. One of the web sites I was reading last night had a questionnaire asking things like how often do you do nice gestures for your spouse. I realized that I do far fewer things for H than he does for me, at least as far as gestures like that go. So he prolly feels like he's the only one making all the effort.

Strange how life works, huh? I would be so happy if he would just talk to me. Also at the beginning of my thread I was learning how to make my Thoughtful Request and accept whatever his answer is. If he doesn't wanna do something, even if it's MB stuff, then I shouldn't demand it.

I was thinking of that earlier today too. How ears talks so much about letting go of the response, and how I've been NOT doing that; and how hard it seems like it would be. I don't know if I could do that for very long. How can you totally let go of the response? How can you keep trying to do your part, if he never starts doing the things you need?

Thanks cat for the suggestion on what to say. That's what I'll do.

Lil I can't grasp your time zone, sorry. I know you've told me before... I thought you were between 8 and 11 hours different. Oh well. I thought when I come on at night is when you're waking up. I'm soooo confooosed! You'll have to move, sorry.

Bull crap. You have just as much right to expect happiness as he does.

You shouldn't have to. I don't want to push you one way or another, but like ears, I can't stand to see you giving and not getting. Like it's the luck of the draw that you picked someone who seems to be simply incapable of understanding or wanting to meet your needs.

Sorry if that's a downer. But I get protective over my friends.

Thanks cat... I don't know if I have the energy to finish even the must-do cleaning items. I still have to edit a paper for this young woman and I was supposed to call her and this other guy this afternoon, I'll have to do it first thing in the morning since I got caught up in other phone calls. But I definitely need to read her paper tonight. All I wanna do is go to sleep. So I'm reading here in the hopes that I'll wake up enough to do some of the things I still need to do. I prolly should just go to sleep, and get up an hour early tomorrow to read the paper before calling her.

This is the point where I usually start rambling cus I'm so tired.

Any other suggestions?

Ask her for an extension? I do it all the time.

And something I've gotten really good at is telling myself, you know what? So what if you don't get the laundry done, or the floor vacuumed, or the paper graded. No one has died, no one is sick, the world's not going to end if I don't accomplish my self-imposed tasks. And if H doesn't like it, just let him try to make me feel bad. It'll all still be there in the morning when I have more strength to tackle it.

Are you on ADs?

BTW, Lil, hugs and prayers to you still. And I'll say it here cus maybe it's safer to say on my thread instead of yours, but I always thought you know who should share you know what equally with you. I only stopped saying that out loud cus you wanted to accept his right to make that choice.

I dunno, maybe the prevailing attitude on MB is changing, or at least swinging or cycling from one extreme to another... it seems I've watched there be an emphasis on not making any Selfish Demands, of making Thoughtful Requests and accepting the spouse's answer no matter what. But then other times there's an emphasis on stating boundaries. Both are still within the realms of MB cus both are dealing just with yourself, what you will and will not accept, right? But I see things going on with ears, and with cat, and with me, and with lil, all different but all variations of the struggle to balance acceptance vs. enforcing boundaries.

(If y'all are up for another acronym, I would like to suggest using BCs for Boundary Conditions. It's a term from differential equations. Do you like it? I'm tired of typing out Boundaries.)

I think this is one reason I need to talk directly with a MC like the Harleys. Cus I can't figure out where the balance should be.

I really think that could be unlocked if your H would only talk. We don't know what he's thinking! If he even knows what's going on. Like people tell me, I owe it to my H to let him know how miserable and close to walking I am. So do you.

I've tried telling him. My last attempt has been over the past several days I've said things like, this marriage isn't working for me. Believe me I'd follow up with more explanation if I could. He won't hear it. He just starts yelling or ignores me.

Hi Jayne,

I wonder if your husband is more of an "actions speak louder than words" kind of guy. I was reading a book one time about a man's point of view and the consistent theme seemed to be that many men figure that if there is an issue, talking about it can only make it worse. They get through their lives by ignoring things that bother them, and they don't understand why we don't do the same.

So if your husband doesn't want to talk but does do nice things, does this even things out at little? From what I've heard you describe lately it sounds like every conversation is about how you don't talk. So every conversation is about the big problem in your life. If he doesn't feel that he CAN do anything about that, perhaps thats part of why he doesn't want to talk.

I don't know if you're up for this, but how about you have a couple of sessions with the Harleys on your own, while you fill them in on the big picture. And allow them to offer you good tactics for dealing with the situation. Then when things are a bit calmer from the moving in thing, ask dh if he'd like to contribute his opinions to the conversation.

I have the feeling that if you tell your husband that you're doing counseling and invite him now, he'll figure that he'll be the one dogged out. I like Cat's idea of saying that you are looking for help with your issues. That might make it seem a bit easier to accept.

On the kids yelling thing, although boys do yell more than girls, if you fall into the yelling tactic, your boys will never outgrow it. Your dh yells, you yell, the kids yell, its a yelling house. When the volume is turned up so high, no one is listening. Please don't think that I'm being holier than thou, because I came from a yelling house too. I had to learn to parent at lower volume.

Thanks happy. I *want* to turn the volume down. How do you get their attention? When they truly don't even hear you? I've been trying walking right up to them, getting in between them if necessary, bending over and getting right in front of one or the other and making eye contact and repeating what I'm trying to tell them. My back is actually so sore that that is difficult, the bending over, but I'm trying it. I still have to hold one of them by the arm though to make eye contact. Is there a better way?

So, do you think I should wait before telling H about the appointment? I'm tempted to do that. I don't really feel like telling him. I can't imagine he'd be open to participating. Maybe Steve Harley would have some pointers on whether and how to broach the subject?

Not every conversation is about how we can't talk. It often turns into that though, when I find he won't talk about something I think is crucial - like a parenting issue, or in the past things like plans to apply for jobs, etc. He'll ONLY have logistics conversations - and even then, he doesn't always share information.

Hi Jayne,

Congrats on trying to turn down the volume. It does take time. I think that physically getting between the boys is probably about all you can do right now. Separating them and sending them to opposite corners might work.

I think kids yell naturally and its a trait that's hard to overcome. The only thing that has worked for me is consequences. I would say, "stop yelling right now", and if they wouldn't listen I'd put them in time out in separate rooms until they were so bored they would listen next time. LOL Regarding the eye contact thing, its probably not as important that the boys keep eye contact with you while you are disciplining them. Girls keep eye contact a lot, to make sure they can placate you, while boys try to withhold eye contact to prove that they are not being bossed. However, I still think they will get the message from the consequences!

You've got a lot on your plate right now, so the kids are probably just mirroring what they see/hear and feel in their lives. I saw this a lot with my younger brothers. My brothers yelled and wholloped on each other a lot, while I was a crier. Neither one is a good way to solve emotional issues.

Are you getting out very much with the kids? If its still snowing they are probably getting a bad case of cabin fever. When will your furniture arrive? You may all feel a lot better when you can make a real home there.

He's back. I thought I heard him so I went upstairs and he was. Just to give you guys a better idea, I'll give you a he said she said as best as I can. I said, "Hi, how was your trip? He said "Oh, it was ok." (Which to me would mean it wasn't so good, but that's what he usually says. When I say "Just ok? What happened?" He says "Nothing, it was ok." So I didn't question him this time.) He reached out to give me a sort of hug, I didn't turn into it but I didn't turn away. I said, "Sorry I didn't get the house clean." He said, "Ah, it looks ok. I see you got the snow shoveled." (As in, it's a lot more melted than when he left.) I said, "Yes, that was the easy part." He finished brushing teeth etc then went downstairs to bed. I folded the clothes in the dryer, moved the washer cothes to the dryer, and set up the coffee maker for tomorrow morning. He doesn't drink coffee but that's something that he sometimes does for me. I didn't want him to do it in the morning so I did it.

On my way downstairs I was turning out the lights and noticed I'd forgotten to turn the outside lights on for him. That's something he usually does for me and I almost always don't do it for him or anyone else - I'm more of a conservationist and tend to turn off all lights. Oh well. I guess I'm giving y'all lots of examples of how nice he is and I'm not. But I never said he wasn't a nice guy. He's very nice, as long as I'm not trying to talk to him and especially if I'm not trying to talk to him about any problem, no matter how carefully I bring it up. At least IMHO.

So when I got downstairs I said "Sorry I forgot to leave an outside light on for you." He gave a little mostly-asleep grunt.

So that's 3 sentences and a half-grunt.

Jayne, thanks for sharing all this here. It helps give a fuller picture. Your post listed a lot of things that you wanted to get done! Jayne, how do you feel about getting to bed at a regular hour every night? Have you ever tried it? FlyLady and Tools write about lack of sleep, and how it relates to depression and weight gain.

I hear you wanting to DO a lot of things for your H, and that's great. What do you think about a time limit on it, like 15 minutes (again FlyLady and Tools). So you can feel good about a little bit instead of all-or-nothing. Not saying, just do this, and everything will be great. Saying, it's of PRIMARY importance to keep from LBing, every day. Second is to do things that meet ENs. I am concerned about your ability to stay consistent with the O&H and LBs when you're overwhelmed and exhausted. Cat's idea of cookies on an easy chair is something that you could put together in a minute, if it's store-bought cookies. But baking the cookies, takes longer, so maybe you want to put a reminder in the computer to turn on the porch light instead. These are symbols, I don't know if you even have an easy chair yet

I've reread the beginning of your thread, too, that's what I meant about the difference in you between then and now. That's why I'm talking to you about self-care, exercise and sleeping well. Good nutrition. How do you feel about frozen healthy dinners instead of running around town? Or something you can throw together faster than a drive thru, like bean burritos on whole-grain tortillas? I know you're farther along in nutrition than me, pioneer woman, so I don't know if you're into Mac and Cheese or Franks and Beans, those kinds of things in the interim.


Plan A is the reality-bringer. It's to thoughtfully request, respectfully persuade, and negotiate to get your needs met without using SDs, DJs, or AOs. And to meet your spouse's ENs, which you've been working on.

It is reasonable to *want* your needs to be met, too. But to expect means you believe that something is going to happen, right? Is it reasonable to expect reciprocation, given recent events? Or is it denial of reality? Plan A is where you go in on a fact-finding mission, willing to accept what you find and act accordingly.

And look at you, looking with open eyes at what you're finding, and acting accordingly! (((Jayne))) I can't wait to hear how your call goes!

Between Parent and Child is a great book about how to parent without yelling. Maybe it is a situation you can bring more order to, and maybe it isn't. My brothers still tear up the house in their late teens and early 20s. There aren't even enough chairs to sit at the dinner table because they bust them up with their carelessness. I think you can, though Maybe you need a helper when your H is out of town for a while until you have that situation under control.

Hi Jyane, how about an update? Or are you still processing? How 'bout processing out loud

Thanks for asking. I'm not doing good right at the moment. I've got a huge headache and I'm sick to my stomach. I ran out of my AD prescription day before yesterday and I'm trying to get the paperwork proving I had previous insurance coverage before I came here, before I try to get the prescription refilled, because I've heard horror stories about "prior conditions" not being covered and everything. I just now got the fax from my previous insurance company, so that's good, maybe I can get the prescription filled tomorrow or the next day.

When I saw I was going to run out I shoulda started cutting the pills in half to make them last longer. Does anyone have any advice for my killer headache??? PLEASE HELP!

More in a bit.

Jayne, you're not supposed to cut off of that stuff cold turkey. If you bring your current bottle to your pharmacist and they see you have refills left on it, they would probably let you pay retail for a few day's worth while you get the insurance situation fixed. They may even give them to you. Or you could pop by your doctor for some free samples to tide you over.

Or you could white knuckle it, decide that it's not worth the effort. But that would be the depression talking Don't listen to it, jayne! Take care of yourself, hon! You're worth it!