Lilybelle:

That was excellent. I will have 2 look that up.

Bob:

By itself, LD doesn't create intimacy. But it sure helps set the environment up so that intimacy can develop/re2rn.

Just my paradigm (that's 20 cents).

-ol' 2long

We are back in couples counseling. Been 2 times.

We are OK, need a tune up.

MB Treason?

I always met wife’s EN’s very well. She admits it. Missing EN’s had nothing to do with her VLTA.

She never met my EN’s at all. Ever. Missing EN’s had nothing to do with my not committing adultery.

Missing EN’s appear to be mostly just a face saving device for the WS.

Pep,

Is he jonesing?

This would be about the time for a melancholy remembering.

How is AA going?

I won't speak for Lily, but I don't think so. I think it was SH who said that affairs don't happen due 2 unmet needs, but caving 2 weaknesses.

On the other hand, expecting that a WS will recommit simply because the BS is meeting their needs is probably flawed. Mainly because of the expectations, which lead 2 disappointment if they aren't achieved.


Same here. Only I wasn't nearly so good at it before I learned of the affair as i was after. Now, I'm b*chen! Ask my friends, they'll tell you I'm ALWAYS b*... well, never mind.


Mine didn't meet all my ENs, but she probably felt like she met some of them as justification of her behavior. But I agree, missing ENs has little 2 nothing 2 do with choosing 2 have an affair - justifies it in a warped mind, but not a healthy one.


Yep.

-ol' 2long

Our eldest moved back in with us and marital tension ensued immediately - parenting conflicts in bloom.

PS - MR PEP suggested we see a counselor

Dear Bob, I am 5 years post most recent affair, so I believe I qualify under the '2yr requirements'.

Ok first what I have to say may sting, I hope it only gives you pause to think of your own personal direction.

Bob reading this thread & your personal reflections, reminds me of how a person about to embark on an affair or just coming out of one justifies their position.

I would like to believe that you have not encountered female attention while away, that you have taken onboard as a comparative to your own wife.

You are unhappy.
So what are your options?
Change or divorce.
I get the impression that it is Mrs Bobs fault in your opinion (I may be wrong).
Yet you know all too well that each individual is fully responsible for their own happiness, regardless of external factors.

Step back to basics.

How horrifically esteem shattering it must be for your wife to read here & read exactly how superior (though probably unintentional) you appear to be to her.

Yes it is probably a badly needed kick in the [censored] too for her. To recognise & actual digest the whole fact that you have reached what feels like the end of your tether, you want more, you want your wife to fall in love with you passionately.

Yet in your current state of mind is that even possible?

Would you accept her as real if she did swan over you?

I feel very sorry for your wife at this moment in your relationship.

She is not where you need or want her to be so by your current definition the marriage is unsustainable for you.

Again I reiterate change. Not hers yours.

It is not acceptance because that would not be sustainable.

It is telling & listening honestly to each other, about feelings, fears, hopes. & hold onto the idea that you would really like both of you to be happy with a preference for being happy together.

You know feelings are transient, & neither right nor wrong.

This may be just a phase of self deluisionment.

Do you tell Mrs Bob in way that she herself can accept that you do really love her & want her, admire & respect her?

She already knows how awful you consider her. & now her human history simply can never be re-written. Where is the room for her to grow confident in herself, in her ability to love completly & be loved without judgement.

Just my own meandering thoughts on this Friday Morning.

Bob I wish you well, slow down the negative process in your mind & allow yourself & your wife to enjoy the moments of being without expectation.

Unexpressed or sometimes even expressed expectations can put an huge burden on us & nearly prevent us from genuinely enjoying simply being, Squid must feel as if she is on constant performance review, even when you are being supportive & loving.

It's hard I know, others know, so do you, so does your wife.

We are all free to chose, how to be.

Peace to you this weekend.

That's very true, Bob. But you have "two hands," one yours and one God's, and together they CAN clap.

I know that in my case I had many of the same feelings you have been expressing. The "unfortunate" part about recovery is that you don't often "progress" at the same rate and there are times when you reach the "I don't know what more *I* can do" point.

It is at those times where divorce seems to become more and more attractive. In the sort of "been there, done that" way, I'd suggest that many, if not all, of BS's have faced those thoughts and feelings many times during their recovery.

I know that in my case, it took almost 6 years before my wife "finally" got to the point where *I* thought we were "recovered" from the affair and dealing only with differences in our personalities.

I remember all too well the dispair and hopeless that you felt, and wrote about, back when you were just fighting to have a "chance" at trying to recover your marriage. Call that "round 1" if you like, of a 15 round "championship fight."

I remember very well your hostility toward God for "allowing" adultery into your life even though you had prayed for it not to be a part of your marriage. I'm fairly certain that Hosea also didn't want adultery to be a part of his marriage, not does God want adultery to be a part of His Son's "marriage."

But it is IN Romans 8:28 that reassurance comes that regardless of the "circumstances" in our lives, GOD will use them to work good outcomes in your life. Not as a "blind give-away" or as some "fairy Godfather" sort of thing, but as a response to those who love Him and seek to follow Him.

A long long time ago we talked about the "Triangle of Marriage." Perhaps it might be a good time to "revisit" that and talk about the "center" of our individual lives and the "center" our our marriages. What do you think?

Do you think that perhaps Squid has "gotten off track" in her relationship with God, and therefore with you also? Is God perhaps "back on the closet shelf" for Squid, because she may think she doesn't "need Him" anymore? Why does anyone "change" their behaviors, their "heart," if God is not foremost and center in THEIR life?

Hi ****edit****! Thank you for investing your very first post in me


Bob reading this thread & your personal reflections, reminds me of how a person about to embark on an affair or just coming out of one justifies their position.

I would like to believe that you have not encountered female attention while away, that you have taken onboard as a comparative to your own wife.

I encounter loads of female attention 'cos I'm lovely I'm also very protective of my weaknesses. I've learned a lot from MB. You only have my word for that of course. Time alone sounds peaceful to me right now: the though of the effort of a new relationship fills me with horror.

You are unhappy.
So what are your options?
Change or divorce.
I get the impression that it is Mrs Bobs fault in your opinion (I may be wrong).
Yet you know all too well that each individual is fully responsible for their own happiness, regardless of external factors.

I have spent much of the last 4.5 years changing myself, meeting Squids ENs, etc. My faith in God has been reignited. I run a marriage building ministry from my little church. I am a better man than I have ever been.
What that have served to do is place yet more distance between Squid and I. She hasn't changed. Quite deliberately so.

People are responsible for the own happiness, but that can mean changing unhappy circumstances right ?

Step back to basics.

How horrifically esteem shattering it must be for your wife to read here & read exactly how superior (though probably unintentional) you appear to be to her.

I have done everything I could think of or research to recover our marriage. Squid, sadly, has done very very little. Those are facts, if she ( or you) read that as me being "superior" in attitude, well, I have no control of that.

Yes it is probably a badly needed kick in the **** too for her. To recognise & actual digest the whole fact that you have reached what feels like the end of your tether, you want more, you want your wife to fall in love with you passionately.

Yet in your current state of mind is that even possible?

Yes it is possible. I respond with near pathetic gratitude if she ever chooses to invest some little effort in me. I see that as undignified and unsupportive of building a great marriage though.

Would you accept her as real if she did swan over you?

is working on our marriage as hard as I have done "swanning" ? Is it humiliating for a FWS to be asked to overcompensate in love and investment to try to earn a place back in their BS heart in your opinion Dora ?

I feel very sorry for your wife at this moment in your relationship.

I do too. I love her, you see.

She is not where you need or want her to be so by your current definition the marriage is unsustainable for you.

How long should I tolerate no change and no hope of change before moving on, Dora ?

Again I reiterate change. Not hers yours.

It is not acceptance because that would not be sustainable.

It is telling & listening honestly to each other, about feelings, fears, hopes. & hold onto the idea that you would really like both of you to be happy with a preference for being happy together.

I ask you to accept that a lot of this has taken place in the last 4.5 years.

You know feelings are transient, & neither right nor wrong.

This may be just a phase of self deluisionment.

I am disillusioned with my one-sided recovery. How long does that have to sustain before it is not considered "transient" dora ?

Do you tell Mrs Bob in way that she herself can accept that you do really love her & want her, admire & respect her?

Yes when she does things that are lovable, wantable, admirable and respectable.


She already knows how awful you consider her. & now her human history simply can never be re-written. Where is the room for her to grow confident in herself, in her ability to love completly & be loved without judgement.

I don't see her as "awful". Not even Christ loves without Judgement.

Just my own meandering thoughts on this Friday Morning.

Bob I wish you well, slow down the negative process in your mind & allow yourself & your wife to enjoy the moments of being without expectation.

If we are to "enjoy being without expectation" why should any of us ever take any action to change our unsatisfying circumstances if it is within our gift so to do?

Unexpressed or sometimes even expressed expectations can put an huge burden on us & nearly prevent us from genuinely enjoying simply being, Squid must feel as if she is on constant performance review, even when you are being supportive & loving.

If she does feel that way she makes little perceptible effort to improve her score.

It's hard I know, others know, so do you, so does your wife.

We are all free to chose, how to be.

Peace to you this weekend.

But I am not free to choose to feel undignified in the loving investment in our marriage being all one way ?

Peace to you too, and genuine thanks for investing your time in me.

All blessings !

“…when people are really and truly done there is no anger or hurt or ranting or other buzzy energy around it. They simply are. And it's quiet and calm and at peace.

And that makes me think it's less about being done [right now] than it is about wanting to escape from the pain..... most of which is one’s own internal demons raising their heads and eating one’s soul from the inside out.”

Above is Penny paraphrasing Star*.

You are not there yet, it seems.

I am closer, but not quite there yet either.

Depends what you mean by "done" doesn't it ?

Indifference is not the only place from which successful divorce is launched IME.

In my case I don't WANT a D, but I'm out of tools and factors to make any more change. And I know hope is not a plan.

Maybe a D would be the making of me ? Maybe the breaking of me ? does anybody know that for sure before they do it ?

Its just another option now. Something better change.

Bob, what do you think about a 180? To help you get that loving detachment back, to feel more at peace letting go of the consequences?

Interesting reading Lily. I'm going to have to check out his website. Concerning compassion I'm thinking of the Moody Blues album "On the Threshold of a Dream". Isn't there a line that goes something like "With Understanding comes compassion"?
Now remember I was into the Moody Blues back in the 70s so I might not be remembering that line exactly right.Anyhoo, I can honestly say that I have really worked very hard to understand the mind of a WS, particularly my little FWH's brain. And truthfully understanding did help bring me to feel some compassion for how screwed up he was to go against his values. Yet, as good as he is to me, and I really do think he is remorseful and would never want to walk down the infidelity path again, I don't think he has put the same effort into understanding this BS's little peabrain. Could be it's just too hard to go there. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard. You know, just take a few minutes and really imagine your BS boinking someone else in technicolor. My buddy CN explained to me once why it was so hard for my H to go to the places I asked him to go. Do you remember CN if you're still around? Your explanation makes more sense to me know.

As far as ENs, I think they make a M vulnerable, however there are going to be times in a M where it's just going to be tough to meet ENs. People need to understand that. People also need to understand how these As happen. And if an A happens more than once than there are other issues at hand.

OK Bob, here's me, the broken record talking to you again. You don't want to D your W. Will you PUULEASE listen to me on this one? PLEASE!!!! Find yourself a good shrink, there has to be at least one in the UK, and simply tell your W you need MC. I agree with you that the whole LD thing is good for just so long. I also think that making oneself happy is all well and good, but if you're unhappy in your M it's hard to sustain individual happiness indefinitely. The very best advice our MC drilled into us, which we aren't following right now BTW, is "When you both move towards the uncomfortable feelings you move them out of the way." It really works like magic and I plan on doing that with Mr. CV this weekend. I've just been too pooped to even care about our present need to talk thus far.

Ya know Bob, this is what I don't get. We Med folks, (pre-A, post-A, whatever), seem to not understand that having a satisfying M takes both effort and sometimes needs help. Would anyone who has a business think twice about hiring a consultant if they needed help in a certain area? Would any professional think twice about attending a workshop in an area they need more expertise in? Look at Pep. She and Mr. Pep needed a M tuneup so they are going to MC. Why in the world would your W know how to be Med given her background? How about you? Quit white knuckling it, face this problem with your W, and give MC a good shot. WTH do you have to lose? You don't want to D her, even though you don't really like her now. So get help! Just do it!!!

Your USA mate! CV

Hi there Bob!

I just dropped in for the first time in months (...active almost two year old DD plus demanding job....).

Its nice to hear you're still around, but not good to hear that things are not going as well as you would want.

H and I are going better than ever. The year of MC and talking and reconnecting, as well as my IC, set us up. I don't think there is any way our M would have survived the pressure of a baby who doesn't sleep (for almost 2 years)...plus two careers... if we hadn't done all that work. Even with the stress, we haven't had an argument in years, we are loving and happy, we laugh a lot, and we solve problems creatively.

For me, actually, more important than MC was IC. This was because it allowed me to understand what behaviours I had that were contributing to my own unhappiness and to the problems in my M. They weren't obvious to me, and at times I was convinced that H had all the problems, especially the problem childhood, and I was fine.

Then, in IC I began to see myself...not asking directly for what I wanted...wanting to control another person's reaction or an outcome... not being direct about my boundaries, about what I liked or disliked....not being prepared to face a fear of rejection or a fear of confrontation... and so on.

I do still struggle with some of these issues, but at least now I'm mostly aware of them. It also amazes me constantly how much of this has roots in my FOO. I can see exactly where some behaviours come from, which gives me compassion for myself (and others). I can strive to change the behaviour, but at the same time not give myself a hard time about it.

I now have a much more balanced perspective on my FOO. I can see the strengths and the weaknesses of each family member... I don't put anyone on a pedestal. I can see my parents worked hard to be the best parents they knew how to be. I can also see the pain I suffered because of things they said or did and things they didn't say or do. I take responsibility for all of my choices, since becoming an adult, including many I am not proud of! I can now choose to change certain things. I enjoy the feeling of power and strength I get from that knowledge. I will probably still make mistakes, and thats ok too.

The best aspect of IC for me was that I could go to MC and discuss issues without feeling defensive or attacked, and without blame. I had a much greater sense of what was "mine" and what was H's. So, for example, if he made a "you" statement..."you're not trustworthy"... I could listen to that, not take it personally and get angry or defensive. I could see that it was just H's opinion at that instant. So I could calmly reply something like "is that what you think?". Then, most of the time, he would calm down.

I hope things work out and hello to you, Bob, its time for bed here now!

Smu(r)

Hi Smur !

Just saw this, will reply properly at a more Godly hour OK ?

DELIGHTED things are going well for you , lady !!

Hey there!

Yes, my M is going really well. The rest of my life is actually going through some changes.... seems inevitable after having your first child, in hindsight, although I didn't see it coming.

For me the MC and the IC, which I started due to affair recovery, has sort of opened a pandora's box. I am so aware now of relationship dynamics. I understand much more when I am 'acting out', due to hurts or sensitive issues that have nothing to do with my DH or the present situation.

Having a child is sort of like stepping back into my childhood self. So I can't say that life is easy at the moment.... not that its hard. I am reliving a lot of my early childhood through watching and caring for DD, except that now I am trying to be an adult about things. Instead of just giving myself permission to act out, I am having to learn new skills and process old feelings.

Luckily my M and DH are my rock, helping me through this very busy and sometimes difficult time!

Bobp

I lost a job about 1995. I was happy there. I would of been retiring with a good pension and health benefits in five more years.

About 12 times a year I would have to drive by the old job. It would hurt every time that I would pass by that place. It took me 10 years to be able to drive by there without it hurting.

I still get sad for a brief moment when on a rare occasion I think about what happened and was lost back then. No more pain though.

You haven't been 10 years past yet. Time will make things fade.
Forcing, pushing, willing it, these things will not make it happen faster.

Thanks for writing 'road.

Those ten years since you lost that great job, have they been filled with other stuff ? Distracting stuff ?

Do you think you'd be as well recovered from its loss if you'd lived ten years in the same building you used to work in, but now without pay or privileges ? Sat next to the guy who fired you ?

So wonderful to hear Smur !! I know just what you mean about reliving childhood through a child of our own. It can be disconcerting.

Its great to see such deserving success stories as you and H ! I remember how dark it was for you back in the day... 'nuff said.

ALL BLESSINGS !!

The people that you feel I should hate have keep their careers intact.

Why should I hate them?

Who's paying me to hate them?

Why waste time on them?

What bother's me is that my career life has had it's up and downs. And, way down right now. What I lost: To retire with health benefits, making $100,000. Will I have a good pension?
Will I make good money again? Will I have health insurance again?
Will I have a job by January? In January I will be out of work for a year. Had a temp job for six weeks this past spring.

These things worry me.

"if you'd lived ten years in the same building you used to work in, but now without pay or privileges ? Sat next to the guy who fired you ?"

I'd go back to work there tomorrow for the income and benefits.

I'd of went back the next day all those years ago.