Thought this site might be of interested: http://www.christiancontraception.com/foreword.php

I found this paragraph to be very informative:

"No methods are perfect, and some should not be used by Christians. While most Christian couples are interested in controlling fertility, many have concerns about certain birth-control methods, and with good reason. As Christians we maintain that life begins at conception, yet many of the chemicals we use to prevent pregnancy are also known to interrupt life in its earliest stages. Combined oral contraceptives (the pill), estrogen-free pills (the mini-pill), Depo-Provera (the shot), Norplant, and the IUD all prevent the implantation of an embryo after fertilization as one of several major mechanisms of action. (47) Expulsion of a developing human being is quite different from simply keeping sperm and egg apart (by inhibiting ovulation, for example)."

I've been following this thread with interest. FWIW I'm not pro-abortion. I'm very anti-abortion but I know that realistically you can make it illegal etc etc (as it was for many, many years in my country) but backstreet abortionists thrive in that climate. It happened all the time here, or women went to Australia where it was legal.

The other point that keeps running through my head is that war kills many, many, many children (innocent children) yet I would hazard a guess that, being conservatives, most of the people putting forward their strong anti-abortion stance are pro-war. I can't help feeling that you (generic) feel "thou shalt not kill" only applies in certain circumstances.

Well, an embryo is NOT a parasite, a wart to be removed, or something not human. If the embryo was merely an unwanted growth, there would be no point in debating abortion. So I will agree to disagree on that and leave that for later, in the interest of PM losing her bet about the thread being locked.

I taught all of my children about the sanctity of life and didn't leave it up to the schools, just like I taught them all to read.

However, when they got to be teenagers, they made their own choices. But I talked to them about birth control and made doctor visits readily available for the girls, and condoms for the boys.

When I found out that my step-daughter had an abortion, I took her off of my insurance and explained that I won't support it.

And I think we really need to emphasize adoption. It just makes no sense to have so many abortions while their are loving parents waiting for babies. That will take a shift in our society's paradigms.

first off...I am a war at last resort person...I am anti-death penalty as well. BUT, that is apples and oranges. The number of child deaths from a war would NEVER be even a small fraction of the number that are killed from abortion each year. 35% of the black population is destroyed each year in this country...by abortion. Drop 12 bombs the equivalent of Hiroshima each year in just America and you have the death totals from abortion.

as for abortion being done in back allies...that is where crimes are supposed to take place...not in the light of day, sanctioned and paid for by our government.

Thanks a lot Believer!!

Backstreet abortions kill women AND babies.

MEDC, I agree with you about abortion, I just know that realistically women will always find a way, even if it's using a knitting needle or drinking gin and jumping off a table. A friend of mine had an abortion and it sent me into a deep depression. I tried to talk her out of it. I was devestated when she went through with it.

I firmly believe that realistic sex education is exceptionally important.

What are your current laws?

Well, now, PM, you still have 2 hours, and these types of threads are always locked.

If people KNOW they will be put in jail for twenty years for doing this, trust me, the number of abortions would diminish. And yes, women sometimes die in the procedure too...although a lot less than the pro abortion people would have you believe...and they DESERVE to die if that is what they are doing.

I will add that if you are in a back ally having an abortion...or laying on a doctors table while he butchers your child, IMHO, you have no right to take another breath. But, that's just me.


Laws regarding what?

Thou shalt not kill refers to MURDER, not deaths resulting from a just war. And I know you know that. But even if all war was unjust and could rationally defined as MURDER, it would not justify the wanton slaughter of the unborn.

What I find hypocritical are those who claim to object to war and the death penalty but say nothing about abortion.

Your laws regarding abortions.

These are ours and some history from Wikpedia.

"Abortion was criminalized in New Zealand by the British Offences Against the Person Act of 1861, adopted in New Zealand in 1866. The 1893 Criminal Code Act made the punishments for illegal abortion a maximum of seven years imprisonment for the women and life for the doctor. Illegal abortions continued to occur, however, and it was generally understood that abortions performed in good faith to protect the life of the woman or her mental or physical health would not lead to prosecution. The 1936 Committee of Enquiry headed by D.G. McMilland reported that one in five pregnancies in New Zealand resulted in an induced abortion. Some pregnant women died, were injured or infected, or abused by practitioners of illegal abortion. In the 1940s, the discovery of antibiotics made infection less likely, which also meant some doctors were more likely to assist.

Public debate increased following the legalization of abortion in Britain in 1967 and in South Australia in 1969. The legalization of abortion in Australia enabled New Zealand women who could afford to travel to have abortions in Australia. After a Royal Commission on New Zealand abortion law, Parliament passed the Contraception, Sterilisation and Abortion Act of 1977. The law caused much confusion over the demarcation of certain restrictions as to when an abortion would be legal, and led to a series of amendments that were passed in the following year to clarify the Parliament's intentions."

But the woman CHOOSES a backstreet abortion and takes that risk. The baby does not CHOOSE to be killed.

Secondly, the notion of women dying from back street abortions is a lie concocted by pro-abortionists to try and pander sympathy. They just made it up. Before abortion was legalized in this nation, the vast majority of abortions were performed by DOCTORS.

I would also point out that women die from abortions TODAY even though it is legal.

My sympathy is not elicited by someone who dies in the commission of a murder. That is a job hazard.

there are very few laws regarding abortion...and Obama has promised to remove every one of them when he takes office.

Yep.

Sounds to me like you're saying that someone who has had an abortion deserves to die.

While I understand how repellant abortion can be, until a man can get pregnant, I think that your stance is ridiculously harsh. Easy to pass judgement when it can never, ever be you in that position.

The ability to have a child is a gift that I would love to have.

and I KNOW if men were able to carry the babies, women would be marching in the streets to protect this slaughter of unborn babies.

"The ability to have a child is a gift that I would love to have."

MEDC - You are such a straight shooter and so different from most men, that I always (or almost always) enjoy your posts.

The ability to have a child IS a wonderful gift - too under-appreciated in my opinion.

Not only is it a gift, but an assignment, straight from God. I believe that those women who throw away a life so easily for convenience sake only will have a lot of explaining to do about why THEY decided that the person GOD decided to create was not worth living, unless they repent. Even my own daughter.

The Pro Abortion advocates attempt to limit the discussion to the most extreme and painful scenarios possible in an effort to not have to deal with the overwhelming majority of abortions; Abortions of convenience and as a form of birth control.

The strategy is to highlight scenarios both sides of the issue will agree are horrifying and argue that without allowing these rape victims to kill their babies we are punishing them. The other talking point claims it is better to allow a “Clean” legal abortion in a hospital than a back alley butcher job. Of course they don’t bother to provide statistics or proof. The only study ever done on rape/incest victims and abortions concluded abortions inflict added pain and suffering through a second victimization of the mother.

If you like extremes, listen to the audio of President elect Obama arguing against providing medical aid to a baby that survives a botched abortion of watch the clean, sanitized and completely legal, videos available showing partial birth abortion. If Pro-Abortion logic claims abortion must be legal to provide a solution to the very small percentage of pregnancies caused by rape or incest, why does that outweigh the logic abortion must be illegal to outlaw the horrifying practice of allowing a baby to be half-way delivered before crushing the babies skull to assure it is killed before the delivery is complete?

Pro-Abortion has been skillfully changed to be referred to as Pro-choice. Many claim Pro-Abortion and Pro-Choice are different. I can see how people would need to convince themselves of that lie in order to sleep at night. The latest spin is to even redefine the Pro-Life terminology and quickly the Pro-Abortion advocates are getting the MSM to begin using Anti-Choice. So should the Pro-Life crowd just call the pro-abortion supporters’ anti-life?


By Fr. Frank Pavone

"Well what about rape? Are you saying that woman can't have an abortion?"

The primary concern of this question, normally, is not Do you think abortion is OK in this instance?, despite the fact that this is how the question may be expressed. The concern which is uppermost for the questioner is, Don't you care about this woman? Won't you have compassion and help her?

To answer the question, therefore, let's start by addressing this point head on. We agree totally that the woman who has been raped has undergone a terrible trauma, which we can hardly begin to understand, and that her well-being is very much our concern. The pro-life movement is ready to reach out to such women, giving them counsel, healing, and compassion.

This approach, of course, differs in that it does not start where most people would start in answering this challenge: namely, with the rights of the child. It starts with concern for the woman, which is where the questioner is.

Having agreed that the woman has been victimized and needs our help, Will an abortion help her? By asking this, you are now questioning what is normally an unspoken, unchallenged assumption, namely, that the abortion is somehow a solution to the rape, and somehow helps alleviate the pain and trauma of the woman.

At least question this assumption, therefore, bring in the evidence that not only does the abortion not alleviate the trauma of the rape, but it brings a trauma of its own. Countless women suffer for years and decades after abortion.. I know of women who have been raped and then had abortions, and are in counseling not for the rape but for the abortion! In rape, the trauma is "Someone hurt me." In abortion, the trauma is "I hurt and killed someone else: my child." That brings even more grief.
Choosing life instead of an abortion is not based on insensitivity but rather on compassion, that is, the same basis on which Pro-Abortion supporters is challenge us to allow the abortion.

The compassion of Life actually is more inclusive than that of those who would allow abortion. Having established we care about the rape victim, Why can't we love them both? Why can't we extend to the child the same practical compassion which we both agree belongs to the woman? Why can't we expand the boundaries of those we welcome and care for? Why should helping and loving one (the mom) mean destroying the other (the child)? In reality, you cannot help one without helping the other and you cannot hurt one without hurting the other.

PM, just a suggestion, but it might help if someone could talk with her about what forgiveness in Christ means.

NONE of us is without the need for forgiveness. But the difference is the COMPLETENESS of forgiveness from God.

Hugs to you and your daughter from someone who knows and understands your "hidden pain."

God bless.